Five Ancestor chis sao vs Wing Chun

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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1

Here is a link that was posted before inside another thread recently:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zJIthqEqGk0&feature=related

There are many elements here that should be present in Wing Chun but it seems that many schools nowadays do not train sensitivity and listening in favor of simplistic external practices.

Do you train these sensitivity elements and use them to jam and stop attacks before they happen?

Do you emphasis methods of uprooting and understand their relevance to kung fu training?

Do you include chin-na techniques inside your chi-sao practice?

Do you emphasis, “If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move”, mindset?

I believe that there are a lot of kung fu elements to learn from in the above video clip and these elements are relevant for us Wing Chun practitioners.

Discuss.

2

Actually I really enjoyed the vid,
thanks for posting.

For me Chi Sau represents more of a time frame or a conditional response.

When we touch hands we react based on sensitivity but with certain energies incorporated such as fwd energy, structure energy, on & off along with the awareness of the centerline and various other concepts.

The energetics and structures are all of viable importance especially given you really don’t know if your practicing correctly until put under pressure or skill challenge.
In other words the type of energy that will beat you down if you don’t have correct structure.

So when these elements are not in line correctly then I would move to San Da:
Outside distance if being pressured for more of a kicking set up or just move in for a clinch and execute takedown, throws, joint locks, or groundwork.

Its important to remember that each of these have their own place in time and are all equally important for chi sau practice.

That’s my opinion, take it for what its worth (probably not much lol)

Oh and also for Hendrik & Terence we also implore the ancient techniques of Qi oh and don’t forget Fa Jing we derived these mystical approaches from the ancients. Just kidding!

3

The Chi Sao is exactly what the name emplies. It is for development of chi. Not some mystical power that can be summoned like you were a common sorcerer. It is fluid motion and flow. You work with a partner to develop these skills, both getting in equal time and exercise. You practice your strikes or hand attacks while your partner trains his blocks and paries. Then he converts his defence into attack, you then train your defenses, converting to attack, back and forth so that you both can train your skills and develop proper chi. Learning just how much force you need apply in defense and attack. Your training partner is not an apponent as such, and you are not competing with him or trying to out chi sao him. That is of absolutely no benefit to either of you. If you want to do Chin Na or other fighting techniques, develop a drill with a partner so that you can both practice your entry and application of said techniques. To try to include them into your chi sao would alter what chi sao is all about.
The importance of chi sao is greatly over rated. It is not a fighting techinque and does not even represent one. It is a simple method by which 2 people can practice their hand techniques equally.

4

There are many elements here that should be present in Wing Chun but it seems that many schools nowadays do not train sensitivity and listening in favor of simplistic external practices.

What do you refer to? please be specific. simplistic and external practices doesnt mean anything when you dont define what do you mean.

Do you train these sensitivity elements and use them to jam and stop attacks before they happen?

Do you emphasis methods of uprooting and understand their relevance to kung fu training?

Do you include chin-na techniques inside your chi-sao practice?

Do you emphasis, “If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move”, mindset?

Why dont you share with us your answers on questions above? to start this discusion?

I believe that there are a lot of kung fu elements to learn from in the above video clip and these elements are relevant for us Wing Chun practitioners.

what elements to learn?

5

[QUOTE=Tensei85;931493]Actually I really enjoyed the vid,
thanks for posting.

For me Chi Sau represents more of a time frame or a conditional response.

When we touch hands we react based on sensitivity but with certain energies incorporated such as fwd energy, structure energy, on & off along with the awareness of the centerline and various other concepts.

The energetics and structures are all of viable importance especially given you really don’t know if your practicing correctly until put under pressure or skill challenge.
In other words the type of energy that will beat you down if you don’t have correct structure.

So when these elements are not in line correctly then I would move to San Da:
Outside distance if being pressured for more of a kicking set up or just move in for a clinch and execute takedown, throws, joint locks, or groundwork.

Its important to remember that each of these have their own place in time and are all equally important for chi sau practice.

That’s my opinion, take it for what its worth (probably not much lol)

Oh and also for Hendrik & Terence we also implore the ancient techniques of Qi oh and don’t forget Fa Jing we derived these mystical approaches from the ancients. Just kidding![/QUOTE]

Nice theory, does it work in real time action?

Qi? That is much much higher level that these basic stuffs.

what is right or wrong of the acting WCner? is he doing WCK? or not?

Also, this will be a great questions for Ten Tiger or omarthefish who believe Hung gar is the same with WCK. Please share your view, what’s right? what’s wrong? is this WCK? or is this similar with how you do in Hung gar?

6

Anyone believe that video clip demo can work to defeat well train WCner is either ignorance or day dreaming.

WCner who watches this video clip and thinking they have to change thier training such as adding the

“If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move”, mindset?

for counter attack doesnt reallly know what is the basic of WCK.

I know some dont like what I am saying.
So, please ignore what i said.

For those who is interested in serious but non personal attack civilized technical discussion, look closely what’s wrong with that WCner? something very very basic is missing do you see that?

7

[QUOTE=Hardwork108;931492]I believe that there are a lot of kung fu elements to learn from in the above video clip and these elements are relevant for us Wing Chun practitioners.

Discuss.[/QUOTE]

I’m not so sure.

Haven’t posted here for ages as the discussions seem to be all over the place.

When people studying Wing Chun seem to be disillusioned into thinking Yap Leung Sifu can help with their Chisau, I think we have problems.

As much as I have time for other stylists and what they do (and why?) I personally feel that if you don’t know what you’re doing you should still be next to your own Sifu.

[QUOTE=Hendrik;931492]For those who is interested in serious but non personal attack civilized technical discussion, look closely what’s wrong with that WCner? something very very basic is missing do you see that?[/QUOTE]

Yes I see it Hendrik. As much as I have respect for Yap Leung Sifu he IS NOT a Wing Chun practitioner and I don’t believe he would appreciate people on here saying that he is!

Doi lin (Dulien) is NOT chisau. :wink:

8

Look at this Dan Chi,

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z4FmuaK30tc&feature=related

This show a type of Jin or energy pattern which is not shown in that clip above. Without this type of Jin, that is not WCK.

Look at this

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YWjsr7Yr5tY&feature=related

and see the detail explain and how to use others force.

See, we must speak with details and specific instead of going to become fuzzy thinking "oh yes, this is Hung gar…etc " or and calling WCK Traditional teaching fantasy but without a clue.

simple stuffs? nope, one needs to know the details that is what SLT training is about.

Thus, why looking at a clip and start wanting to import

Do you train these sensitivity elements and use them to jam and stop attacks before they happen?

Do you emphasis methods of uprooting and understand their relevance to kung fu training?

Do you include chin-na techniques inside your chi-sao practice?

Do you emphasis, “If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move”, mindset?

without even knowing what is going on.

"If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move " mindset?
is contradict to

WCK’s “Comes accept, Goes return… using Silence to lead action.” WCK doesnt use mind and doesnt compete for speed. WCK dance with the opponent with ease. No stress of “oh I got to be faster then you.” you know what? that mind set it self is a limitation, because in real time, thinking is too late.

As Mas Oyama’s Kyokushin way, we by passed the thinking mind.

9

If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move

[QUOTE=Hendrik;931535] is contradict to

WCK’s “Comes accept, Goes return… using Silence to lead action.” WCK doesnt use mind and doesnt compete for speed. WCK dance with the opponent with ease. No stress of “oh I got to be faster then you.” you know what? that mind set it self is a limitation, because in real time, thinking is too late.

As Mas Oyama’s Kyokushin way, we by passed the thinking mind.[/QUOTE]

I don’t think Hedrick even understands what is meant by “If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move”. This isn’t anything to do with “I must be faster than you”. It’s about reaction and timing. Not about who’s faster. And it doesn’t imply the person is ‘thinking’ in the real time of fighting.
Such the ‘expert’ :rolleyes:

10

[QUOTE=JPinAZ;931541]I don’t think Hedrick even understands what is meant by “If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move”. This isn’t anything to do with “I must be faster than you”. It’s about reaction and timing. Not about who’s faster. And it doesn’t imply the person is ‘thinking’ in the real time of fighting.
Such the ‘expert’ :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]

Ok, you are an expert.

if you want to qoute me please make a full qoute

"If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move " mindset?

That is what I quote from others, see that MINDSET term?

See, you are blind by what you are thinking, isnt it? you lost term and still not AWARE.

Not to mention all these “if you…, if You…” stuffs what is that? arent those Thinking?

it is Ok to have dissagrement or clarification, however, what is the point to go more then that?

Now, share with us who is the one who knows “move first”, is that your mind or what ?

and is there a You and Me in the process of Comes accept goes return… using silence to lead action?

also, what is the different between reaction timing and spontaneous response?

BTW, do you do WCK? and how is your WCK react in the Youtube clip above?

11

Hendrick: words, words, words, words, deep questions! More words, words, words and thats why I have the deep wing chun. :stuck_out_tongue:

12

[QUOTE=Hendrik;931535]Look at this Dan Chi,

if you want to qoute me please make a full qoute

That is what I quote from others, see that MINDSET term?

See, you are blind by what you are thinking, isnt it? you lost term and still not AWARE.

Not to mention all these “if you…, if You…” stuffs what is that? arent those Thinking?

it is Ok to have dissagrement or clarification, however, what is the point to go more then that?

Now, share with us who is the one who knows “move first”, is that your mind or what ?

and is there a You and Me in the process of Comes accept goes return… using silence to lead action?

also, what is the different between reaction timing and spontaneous response?
[/QUOTE]

I agree with M1K3 you put too much words into your WCK, almost like you truly believe you can somehow explain everything with your literature ! So what happens when you cant ? You retort then ask Q’s to which you expect an honest answer !

The simple fact is and its clear from your response you dont know what “If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move” represents in the physical world, instead you pick up on the words, we all know what Yap & JPAZ was trying to say even though he didn’t quote the keun kuet word perfect.

The irony is that with all your profound depth of knowledge in TCMA you actually dont understand one of TCMAs most iconic kuen kuet. It’s physical interpretations is no secret but its obvious your lineage doesn’t know it so maybe its time to seek out other schools to broaden your knowledge base.

13

[QUOTE=m1k3;931601]Hendrick: words, words, words, words, deep questions! More words, words, words and thats why I have the deep wing chun. :p[/QUOTE]

To be extremely serious, Words are very specific and they means different things.

one must know what type of art one train in.

“If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move” is one type

Another type is

" last to issue and first to arive" or Hao Faat Sin Do

Another type is

“using silence to lead action” or Yee Cheng Chai dong.

Another type is

“Fast comes fast response, Slow comes slow response” …

And,

For example, can one drop one’s mind and use awareness to lead? Those are action not words and not wise thoughts.

If one can drop one’s mind and use awareness, then what kind of paradigm is that? That is not about Understanding, that is Does one Know the state and can get in and out at will?

Got to know which type of art one train in.
Otherwise, it is chaos.

Now back to the clip above, what’s wrong with the acting Wcner? if it is you or you are his sifu, what have him done wrong? how to correct that?

14

[QUOTE=Stevehans;931625]

The irony is that with all your profound depth of knowledge in TCMA you actually dont understand one of TCMAs most iconic kuen kuet.

It’s physical interpretations is no secret but its obvious your lineage doesn’t know it so maybe its time to seek out other schools to broaden your knowledge base.[/QUOTE]

You are totally right, with the way how you think.

But do you know what I am presenting?

15

I agree with M1K3 you put too much words into your WCK, almost like you truly believe you can somehow explain everything with your literature ! So what happens when you cant ? You retort then ask Q’s to which you expect an honest answer !

The simple fact is and its clear from your response you dont know what “If you don’t move, I don’t move, if you move, I first move” represents in the physical world, instead you pick up on the words, we all know what Yap & JPAZ was trying to say even though he didn’t quote the keun kuet word perfect.

The irony is that with all your profound depth of knowledge in TCMA you actually dont understand one of TCMAs most iconic kuen kuet. It’s physical interpretations is no secret but its obvious your lineage doesn’t know it so maybe its time to seek out other schools to broaden your knowledge base.

I can’t speak on what Hendrik does or doesn’t know, when it comes to fighting. That being said, he is answering from a very Chan/Zen standpoint, and being familiar with that type of experiential learning, what he is saying gel’s with my own perspective on training. There is a difference in the specifics on how words are used, and viewing something as a self or as another person, is a different rung on the ladder of progression, from “just being/acting”.

Just because we train to fight doesn’t mean that we stop learning. The moment we decide we have become an expert is the same moment we stagnate our own path of learning. Striving to be an eternal student keeps one on the endless path of progression.

16

[QUOTE=Hendrik;931628]You are totally right, with the way how you think.

But do you know what I am presenting?[/QUOTE]

This sounds almost exactly like the small child’s retort “I know you are but what am I”.

17

[QUOTE=m1k3;931631]This sounds almost exactly like the small child’s retort “I know you are but what am I”.[/QUOTE]

You like to think that way, that is fine with me.

Obviously, you dont read what I posts above on different based or platform of training.
and not interested in knowing what kind of based or platform suit WCK what less suit.
and that is fine with me.

For those who is interested, These are very very important, IE shao lin and Wudang are based on different platform. Thus, it becomes different type of arts..they uses different path in applications. that is the reason I bring this things up. WCK is not WuZu and cannot import Wuzu’s stuffs…different platform

The important thing now is to know what do that Acting WCner’s do wrong and not doing WCK?

18

Actually I do read what you post. Some of it I like, some of it I don’t. IMO you try to sound deep and mysterious and it comes off as condescending.

My point is why limit yourself to the perceived boundaries of your WKC platform? Seems too much like looking at the finger and not the moon. :slight_smile:

19

[QUOTE=Hendrik;931628]You are totally right, with the way how you think.

But do you know what I am presenting?[/QUOTE]

No i admit i do not know what you are presenting, but i was referring only to what YL originally said in the vid.

As i said, i acknowledge you have a ‘profound depth of understanding’ in one aspects of the TCMArts and to a degree i respect your effort and research in your specialised field.

Nonetheless i found it hilarious that you clearly didn’t know the answer so instead you side tracked and confused some of us even more !

Others here might have used humility and just politely asked whether any members were prapared to share their insight ?

20

[QUOTE=Golden Arms;931630]I can’t speak on what Hendrik does or doesn’t know, when it comes to fighting. That being said, he is answering from a very Chan/Zen standpoint, and being familiar with that type of experiential learning, what he is saying gel’s with my own perspective on training. There is a difference in the specifics on how words are used, and viewing something as a self or as another person, is a different rung on the ladder of progression, from “just being/acting”.

Just because we train to fight doesn’t mean that we stop learning. The moment we decide we have become an expert is the same moment we stagnate our own path of learning. Striving to be an eternal student keeps one on the endless path of progression.[/QUOTE]

I respectablely agree with this 10000%