1.) I have seen very little SC. what I did see @ Ohio State University consisted of willing uke as they were practicing throws. Not that there is anything wrong with this as you need a willing partner to practice learning the proper off-balancing, entry and execution of a throw. but I’ve never seen “randori”. So to the extent that I saw I’ll honestly say (I’m very open to being shown differently) that SC looked like Chinese aikido. and I don’t nesecarily mean that in a good way..
2.) How many of you (SCers) practice on hard floors? How many always train on mats? The fact that people could practice this art full time on hard floors makes me seriously question how realistic or how much full resistence could be given, as I look at judo and I know how valuable the mats are to training w/ randori and avoiding injury. mats are to grappling as gloves are to boxing. - a must have if you plan to train realistically. Honestly I do not believe that myself or my training partners could go thru a normal practice session and not get seriously injured without mats. ex. Merryprankster @ 185+ and myself @ 220 are the average in the spetrum of competitors I train with (typically 190-250).
3.) Noticable lack of groundwork. Don’t you feel like this is a huge gap in your armor? in fact aikido is the only pseudo-grappling art I can think of that doesn’t contain matwork. (wrestling styles, bjj, judo, sambo) How can modern SC justify any reason not to be training this very important aspect of grappling? Do they naively make the assumption that they won’t go to the ground? lol! (You guys do think “lol” right?) How would that be any worse or any less foolish than the traditional striker thinking he’s always going to get the one shot stopping punch/kick? reality- **** happens. especially in grappling. people go to the ground awkwardly. that’s the reality of a fully resisting opponent. Do you think your opponent will just let you get back up? I doubt this, but I wonder how you SCers justify it (or lack thereof)
I’m not trying to provoke argument. I just see questionable things and think i can get honest answers here. I completely understand that no style has every answer.
in responce to 1, as soon as Crip gets his groin completely healed, we’llput some free wrestling on the tap we’re doing and then digitize it. At least in our group, free wrestling is a necesary part of every class.
in responce to 2, We currently don’t have mats so we go outside. Seven has a fetish about throwing me onto hardwood though, and I’ve never been hurt. Don’t think I’d want to do whole practices that way.
in responce to 3,
I hear ya, I took a little BJJ in the past and would like to do some in the future. But then I realized that BJJ didn’t have any striking work, so I went out to learn some Boxing. But wouldn’t ya know, the Boxing didn’t have and kicks, so now I had to go out and pick up some Muay Thai. Here’s the funny part, there’s no throws in Muay Thai so NOW those guys want to check out the Shuai Chiao.
thanks for the Candid responce WD, i hope i can get other SC to input their opinion as well.
great! look forward to seeing that.
If you don’t have mats, What are your practices like? (an example of a typical session.)
we agree. you realize this gap, but cross train to plug the holes… How do your peers view this?
I am of the opinion that cross training is very important but also that the styles you choose are almost as important.
ex. many mma students study muay thai and bjj. - but they have immense trouble in the middle ground (standing clinch). maybe they add additional wrestling to their training but they still end up training in divisions. (grappling but no strikes, striking with no fear of throws)
IMHO a striking art is needed that blends smoothly into the standing clinch and the grappling art must immediately pick up here and then follow thru into groundwork. (in each, different aspects can be developed to a greater degree. ex- using wrestling skills in standing shoots and in grappling, using bjj, sambo to improve the matwork)
i just see “patch work” cross training as possibly developing bad habits.
At the last ACSCA tournament in Austin Texas, groundfighting was introduced into the freefighting. However, you had ten seconds to submit your opponent or a third person would enter the ring and beat the sh!t out of both opponents. This was seen as a logical way to introduce reality, and insure competitors do not rely on a strategy that can result in receiving a sidewalk sunday.
On the other hand, a SC guy will most likely stab you once your down…
But seriously, duh, I think you need to have an understanding of the ground game as it has evolved. However, as an ai priori assumption for practicing combat skills, ground fighting is not a primary focus - it’s kind of hard when you’ve got body armor and a back pack on. Or in the street when you are surrounded by unfriendlies…From the SC perspective you should not make ground work a primary focus. But you are pretty stupid if you ignore it. Most of the good players in my generation are geting exposure to it. After all, the SC philosophy (as I was taught) has more in common with MMA training than most CMA I see.
From my experience, I had a Judo background - and I quickly found out my old Ne Waza was not up to the Brazilian and Russian innovations.
On the flip side - Judo lacks punches, kicks, knees, and elbows - doesn’t this seem like a critical flaw?
Just like any art, there are all levels of practicioners, so who you see, and thier relative skill level can impact what you see. I remember two guys from Ohio (1 years ago or so) named Tommy and Jeff - they just did the freewrestling - no full contact. But they were killer wrestlers. I’d be disappointed to hear the Ohio club has slowed down. Maybe you hit a bad day.
I did Judo, I prefer Shuai Chiao because I think it is more comprehensive and practical. But my interest was fighting in the street, not on the mat. Given a choice between most other arts, I’d still prefer to have a Judo guy at my back (just not on it!).
I thought that was very obvious. I don’t believe I was making that assertion that it should be either.
it’s kind of hard when you’ve got body armor and a back pack on. Or in the street when you are surrounded by unfriendlies…
Isn’t that why your carrying that M-16? and if you’re without it, the U.S. army think groundfighting is important.. combatives
But you are pretty stupid if you ignore it.
Bingo!
From my experience, I had a Judo background - and I quickly found out my old Ne Waza was not up to the Brazilian and Russian innovations.
Not all judokas newaza skills are equal. trust me.
On the flip side - Judo lacks punches, kicks, knees, and elbows - doesn’t this seem like a critical flaw?
Honestly? as opposed to lack of groundwork? I’d rather do without striking… I’m very confident that I can close the gap between an opponent and myself safely , or even taking a punch in the process if I don’t! I’m still going to get close. forward movement in unevitable. (ironically this is probably due in part to years of san shou & boxing) (assuming there is one when we enter the physical phase) but as I said prior. No style has every answer.
and as I said before "IMHO a striking art is needed that blends smoothly into the standing clinch and the grappling art must immediately pick up here and then follow thru into groundwork. "
they just did the freewrestling - no full contact.
btw: is “full contact” done with gear? I’d imagine it would then look like san shou.
note I hope this thread can reamin on the initial track. I certainly don’t want to derail it with an internal (ground work vs. no groundwork) debate, but I wanted to ask members their opinions.
ST - I would tend to agree with most of your points - it is no revelation. I look at dismay with those in my ‘family’ that close thier minds to things outside the Chinese community. Although I do agree with the fundamental ai priori assumptions of Shuai Chiao - they saved my @ss, and frankly, I think the throwing skills are excellent and more comprehensive than most other throwing based arts other than Sambo.
Although - I think the army has thier head up thier ass when it comes to emphasizing groundwork, over say better knife training or just good ol football style hitting.
I did not mean to imply that you were saying groundwork should be the focus - smply that it is a fun game - challenging - and not as brutal as throwing practice. So people can end up really focusing on it - to the detriment of real street-worthy skills. It’s just as bad as the people who don’t spar at all.
There is wide variation - but I’m a big beleiver in some training gear - helps you get more practice in, as long as you watch out for turning it into a NERF fight…
When done well, the combat Shuai Chiao looks really cool - fast, hard throws. Done badly, well I hate to think about it…but people got to start smewhere
Original assumption in Chinese martial arts is don’t go to the ground, he has friends, there are weapons, ground itself may be dagnerous (stumps, glass, etc)
Reality however is that at times you end up on the ground, and sometimes more than 30 seconds too!!! And reality is also that a lot of people these days are doing ground fighting. In China, if kicking, or chin na was getting popular among fighters, they had to address it. Today, it is ground fighting, so address it!
Ground fighting is also great conditioning and mental training.
Finally, we don’t train just for WAR, we train for FUN, and so we do some ground fighting for fun… nothing wrong with that
I teach a little of everything, San Da is everything standing up… and I cross train Judo, Jujitsu, Sambo, wrestling, etc for the ground
From the Shuai Chiao Mailing List
Originally posted by Master John Wang:
One day I asked Chang why we do not practice ground fight in SC. He showed me a short weapon that has a sharp point with a hook, in the middle of the handle, there is a ring that you can put your middle finger into it. He said, "After you throw your opponent down, you finish him with this. If you want him to die, pull the weapon out, if you want him to live, leave it in there and tell him to go to the hospital to remove it.
Originally posted by ShaolinTiger00 IMHO a striking art is needed that blends smoothly into the standing clinch
Paging Sifu Ross…
And of course, according to Shooter, Tai Chi does that, and works for groundfighting besides.
Me, I do boxing and Thai Boxing and wrestling and submissions, with guys who specialize in each. And you’re right, it does leave you kind of patchwork, and integrating it is a challenge. But that’s something you have to work out with your training partners, through sparring that incorporates strikes and takedowns and the ground game.
