Let’s get some real good, in depth comparing and contrasting of these two arts. we’ll also establish some common terminology and discuss training methods.
Where to start?
Terminology?
Technique?
Terminology. That way we can actually understand each other when we talk about technique.
Well… I dont know shit about judo names.
And terminology I use differs slightly from what WD uses… Not much, but subtly.
Start with descriptions of technique for terminology or what?
Congrats for unknowingly stumbling on to part of the point for this thread. we’re going to compare names. Terminology is definitely a first.
example:
major outer reap
judo - o soto gari
SC - diagonal cut
you guys may not call it diagonal cut though. we need a common reference point so we’ll know what the he11 others are talking about.
neck wheel
judo - koshi guruma
SC - neck surround
inner thigh throw
judo - uchi mata
sc - ho ti
etc.
We also call inner thigh throw inner leg lifting…
As I said tho, I dont know any of the Judo terms…
Don’t worry about the judo terms - between MStoo, ST00 and myself, we’ve got those covered.
According to Matt Furey, The Chinese taught shuai chiao to the Japanese, hence jiu jutsu and later Judo. Dunno how true that is though…
Matt Furey also talks to Farmer Burns’ ghost. I’d take anything he says with a mountain of salt.
Hey, 7*-- Isn’t a Ho-Ti just a kick-out that can be applied to many different throws to add velocity?
Oh, and how about some grip names while we’re at it?
The problem is no one can even agree on HOW to spell Shuai Chiao…
The technical differences are subtle yet significant. For instance. in Koshi Garuma you may be taking the persons forward momentum, and by wrapping the head creating the kuzushi or off-balancing, at which point a hip throw is executed (if I remember this correctly) - great for someone coming at you committed, foolishly thinking that keeping thier back and head straight will prevent a kuzushi.
With neck surround, you don’t give a rats @ss about off balancing because you are clocking the mo fo in the back of the head, breaking his structure, then squeezing his head like a zit to create the control. Then the common finish is more of a bowling break versus a hip toss. You could care less if the are supplying momentum or not, the hit to the medulla does the magic.
FYI - Just looking at the techniques, I think Shuai Chiao influenced Sumo more than Judo. Shuai Chiao looks more like most prototypical stand up grappling all the way across the Northern expanse of Eurasia - from Sweden to Japan. What came first? Why the similarities. I don’t know…
uh, maybe it was just me, but is there ONE standard list now of names of the Shuai Jiao throws? I remember learning the names that Jeng Hsin Ping used and when I would talk to Daniel Weng, he’d have no idea what I was talking about 
I’ve learned to use Judo terms just because a lot of people know them
The way we do koshi guruma, it’s not a hip throw - you keep rotating, more like neck surround.
And crip, yeah, you’re right. in the sense I’m talking about, it’s the inner leg lift.
sorta a hijack
but relevant maybe in illustrating a difference. . .
can anyone tell me the difference between koshi garuma and kubinage?
AFAICT, one’s a pancake and the other’s, well, a pancake.
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One differentiator I’ve liked about what I’ve seen in SC is the solo training methods. While you can do similar things in judo, solo drills aren’t presented in any substantial manner that I’ve seen. As someone who enjoys solo training, I appreciate this strength.
On the other side of the coin, I think judo’s removal of some “untrainable” techniques is a huge boon for its practitioners. Maybe I’m too dainty, but I don’t see how ya can take more than a coupla outside shoulder throws (feel free to replace with some other technique too harsh to practice with resistance; if y’all think I’ve made a bad choice, lemme know.) without being screwed.
I’ve been told by a few people who have practiced Shuai Chiao that they don’t actually perform full-on hard throws onto mats. True or not?
Shuai Chiao is too deadly to practice at full speed, even on mats.
Honestly, though, even in my SC influenced taiji classes we wham each other on the mat pretty hard. I don’t know where that story comes from.
Because we don’t have any mats at the moment, we use the ground, even when we freewrestle.
However, there’s certain throws (The Raise, Shoulder Throw, Cannonball, some Ho-Tis) that have nasty falls so we do them on mats when we can. (And hopefully, we’ll be working out on those more frequently with the cold weather and this new training space.) It’s not like they’re too deadly, they just plain suck to take on the ground, so why not wait until we get a crashpad, ya know?
Personally, I’d really like a nice sprung floor or a crash pad, but I gotta say, getting reaped and taking the fall on the ground sure helps toughen me up. 
7*-- Cool, bro. If I’m ever wrong, don’t hesitate to let me know. I’m still really new to this whole grappling thing (as I’m sure WD will attest to).
Originally posted by Knifefighter
I’ve been told by a few people who have practiced Shuai Chiao that they don’t actually perform full-on hard throws onto mats. True or not?
I think you must have misunderstood. What we wont do are nasty little tricks that have a good chance of messing someone up badly. For example, I wont do O Soto Gari by using your chin as a grip to drive your head into the ground. But I have no reservations about throwing you hard enough to take your wind.
Originally posted by Knifefighter
I’ve been told by a few people who have practiced Shuai Chiao that they don’t actually perform full-on hard throws onto mats. True or not?
Onto Hard floors, maybe, but not mats. Matter of factly, the SC article in the current issue of Classical Fighting Arts stated that full power throws were only performed on the mat. That’s something that will vary from school to school, though, I’m sure.
I’ve heard of muay thai camps that will not spar unless they do so in a ring - they don’t want to develop the habit of not being concerned with where the ropes are, etc.
Knifefighter - I can’t imagine where that story came from. The first couple throughs I took sent me back in time, and when I woke up, my clothes were out of fashion.
S* - I meant an around the hip throw - still very different in the technical essence from neck surround - although very similar…
When I trained with Jeng Hsin Ping, we didn’t have mats, we worked on a basket ball court most of the time, so a few throws we didn’t do, but most we DID do, on the floor, ouch … but we learned to fall