UFC rules and TMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
61

jeebas…this show is still on? when’s the simpsons coming on? :stuck_out_tongue:

technique is only any good if you land it. you can throw a lot of high power techs and get and end result of zero if defense if played proper. Heck you might even get countered and dumped.

there’s plenty of power techs in both tma and mma and the landing of them has a lot of factors.

i can say one thing, the longer this argument goes, the weaker it gets for those overzealous proponents of mma. If and when cma decides to en masse adapt and tailor training towards ufc types matches then it is what it is. Im sure there will be more than 1 or 2 representatives of traditional arts eventually.

just add more endurance training and add a bit o’grappling to the mix and dumb down everything to the basics and hang on to whatever your good at so long as it falls in the rule set and you’re good to go. By adding the wrestling aspect you will not be view as a tma-ist anymore though. lol :stuck_out_tongue:

62

[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;717486]i have to say i agree with these rules, although i would like to see chin na used. that would take it to a good level.[/QUOTE]

Lots of fights already end in joint locks and chokes.

Chin Na does not = wrist locks only.

KF will correct me, I’m sure, but a lot of the standard BJJ submissions were introduced relatively late, mostly from outside Judo influences–kimura and triangle choke come to mind – and were not in the ‘original’ BJJ.

63

I get a real kick out of the TMA/MMA internet squabbles. From my training experience and personal changes of opinion, the conflict arises when MMA nutrider tells TMA/CMA nutrider that “your deadly art sucks because…” The MMAist misses some pertinent points in his ignorant harangue, and the CMAist, more knowledgeable on the subject, takes offense and fires back with a rebuttal the MMAist simply can’t understand due to a lack of reference.

But the exact same thing happens when TMA/CMA nutrider tells the MMA nutrider that “your sport art sucks because…” The CMAist, having virtually no time mounted by someone else, and quite likely without the first clue as to how some (if not most) ground fighting techniques are applied, misses some pertinent points in his juvenile adherence to Master Po’s teaching, and the MMAist, knowing better, fires back a rebuttal that the TMA/CMAist is woefully unprepared to accept or understand.

It’s an ongoing battle, fueled by the ignorance of both parties.

I’ve done TMA/CMA for 21 years now. I previously felt that grappling was a joke, a gimmick, and that a striker worth his salt would have no problem whatsoever dispatching a would-be “gh3y” grappler during his initial approach for a takedown.

Then I started doing some grappling training courtesy of the U.S. Army’s Combatives program (coupled with some Judo/Jujutsu tutoring from a friend).

It boils down, very simply, to the fact that easily 90% of TMA/CMA folks will never test themselves in anything resembling an “alive” (Gods how I hate that word) manner. They’ll accept the word of their sensei/sifu/sabum as Gospel and go with whatever he/she/it tells them, never once questioning for themselves. That’s where they go wrong.

It’s also a case of 90% of MMA folks giving absolutely no credence to a) styles with long histories of use and b) ignoring modern history. My favorite is “TMA doesn’t work in the ring,” and “reverse punches are bull.” Especially when Chuck Liddell, a TMAist (originally) employs repeated reverse punches to knock the faces off his opponents with predictable regularity.

The only True Path (c) is to open your eyes, tuck your opinion in your pocket, and train without judgement. Being in the Mount rocks. Being mounted does not. I use my TMA/CMA just fine during stand up, and even when on the ground. But dominant position is dominant position, and MMA/TMA won’t do you much good if you can’t respond appropriately to what your opponent is force feeding you while mounted on your chest…

Enjoy.

64

[QUOTE=Mr Punch;717352]It’s all irrelevant: If you want to enter a sporting competition you have to follow the rules.

What are you telling us? That if you go into a sports ring you’re not going to be able to win without grabbing someone’s clavicle? That it’s going to cramp your style? Be serious, what proportion of your art is clavicle grabbing? :confused: :rolleyes: :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

I understand you argument but the other factor here is timing. Yeah, maybe an elbow or eye gouge isn’t a bread and butter technique but in a real fight, not sport, you need to be able to use whatever tactic is available to use…AT THE MOMENT IT IS NEEDED!

When your personal saftey is on the line then you may only have one opportunity and you may only have a couple milliseconds to react.

When fighting within a set of “rules” then you must intentionally adjust from the most efficient method of attack or defense to something that is less efficient simply because it fits within a rule set.

Let me give you an example. In Taiji punches we hit with fist, elbow, shoulder. It is all one movement, if the fist misses the head, then then elbow hits the chest and the if that misses then the shoulder drives into the body.

If I’m fighting in sport venue where the elbow cannot be used, then my shoulder is out as well and I have to adjust my game…to be less efficient…to fit the rules…to only hit with my fists.

It is no wonder then that most kung fu fighters end up looking like “kick boxers” in the ring. In those moments when they might have chosen another anatomical weapon they will go back to what fits within the rules not what is most expedient…which is what you would want to use in a real fight.

Having said all this, there is definite value in free sparring, whatever the rules. The more “realistic” you can make those rules, the better. BTW, “realistic” doesn’t necessarily mean “with the most force.” It can also mean using the most amount of weapons available (which in a street fight=ALL!). Often it means striking a balance between the two.

The issue for your kung fu is when you start COMPETING within a specific rule set. In order to be competitive you have to train ad nauseum certain techniques that fit within that rule set in order to be competitive…the techniques that are most expedient within that rule set…but not necessarily the techniques that are most expedient in a street altercation.

So I look at sparring as a useful training tool but when you take it to an extreme (as in competition) then you may be negating more efficient ways of moving to get the same result. It would be nice if we could just “change it up” for ring or for sport but we only have one body and in fighting we rely on muscle memory …often we have milliseconds to react and counter so there is no thought of “changing it up” to be found.

So I think you really do have to choose where you want to focus your training, to the ring or to the street. These are analogs to each other and not the same thing. There is an overlap, of course, but the goals are very different. This will determine how you train.

Peace.

FP

65

[QUOTE=David Jamieson;717506]just add more endurance training and add a bit o’grappling to the mix and dumb down everything to the basics and hang on to whatever your good at so long as it falls in the rule set and you’re good to go. By adding the wrestling aspect you will not be view as a tma-ist anymore though. lol :p[/QUOTE]
And guess what you will have… an MMA training program.

And, no, you would not have a TMA person anymore.

Just like MMA guys who originally started in boxing, BJJ, Muay Thai, Judo, or Sambo are no longer specialists in those arts anymore.

66

wrong

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717313]How good is your gouging, hair pulling, butting, biting, clawing and throat striking? I mean, how do you know? How do you practice it? You can practice kicks and punches on a pad, on a person, etc… do you do a line of bites up and down the floor?

Who do you think can actually use stuff like bites and gouges in a fight? The guy on the bottom, or the guy on top with the controlling position?

Frankly, if you get taken down and mounted, all the eye gouges in the world aren’t going to save you. You’re served working yoru take down defenses and getting back to your feet if that fails than relying on biting

If you think your fighting art only works if you can bite, what kind of a fighting art are you doing? :confused:[/QUOTE]

I got taken down by a guy 75-100 pounds bigger than me after a minute or two of stand up (this was a street fight) and guess what got him off me and ended the fight? A reverse tiger claw thumb in the eye socket four fingers under his jawed. Pulled that guy right off me and ended the fight with him going to the hospital.

67

[QUOTE=Fu-Pow;717513]

Let me give you an example. In Taiji punches we hit with fist, elbow, shoulder. It is all one movement, if the fist misses the head, then then elbow hits the chest and the if that misses then the shoulder drives into the body.

If I’m fighting in sport venue where the elbow cannot be used, then my shoulder is out as well and I have to adjust my game…to be less efficient…to fit the rules…to only hit with my fists.[/QUOTE]
As does everyone else.

BTW, last time I check most MMA venues allowed elbows and shoulders.

So I think you really do have to choose where you want to focus your training, to the ring or to the street. These are analogs to each other and not the same thing. There is an overlap, of course, but the goals are very different. This will determine how you train.

Can you give some specific examples of how your street training differs from someone who does sport training.

68

[QUOTE=Maxwang;717515]I got taken down by a guy 75-100 pounds bigger than me after a minute or two of stand up (this was a street fight) and guess what got him off me and ended the fight? A reverse tiger claw thumb in the eye socket four fingers under his jawed. Pulled that guy right off me and ended the fight with him going to the hospital.[/QUOTE]
I think this thread is about UFC/MMA fighting and the restricted techniques in that venue. Eye gouging a trained groundfighter when he is mounted is completely different than doing it to someone with whom you are fighting on the street and who is probably clueless about groundfighting.

69

lkfmdc

According to what you posted, your own sifu was highly adept at clawing.

70

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;717395]And people wonder why I deride kung fu guys.

It’s really hard to keep from busting out laughing when reading some of this stuff from people who’s closest encounter with MMA is to see it on television.

Too funny.,
Give me a break.
How many clavicles have you dislocated by grabbing and squeezing them?
Talk about clueless.

[/QUOTE]

You don’t squeeze. you grab and pull down. I have done this twice. Once was an accident. Both times those guys could not lift their arm.

You are clueless to real CMA. You must be a half-ass MMAist to be on a CMA forum all of the time.

71

[QUOTE=The Xia;717520]According to what you posted, your own sifu was highly adept at clawing.[/QUOTE]

MY sifu had a very strong grip, which he used for a variety of things but NOT for trying to pull on a clavicle :rolleyes:

IN all the years I’ve trained with other martial artists, the people who had similarly strong grips actually weren’t CMA people, they were GRAPPLERS…

72

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717390]So, I guess it’s time to dig up “John Marsh vs San Soo kung fu” guy clip since that fight had no rules. Mr San Soo tried to eye gouge, grab hair, etc… if I remember correctly, Mr San Soo said he was gonna take an eye out BEFORE THE FIGHT[/QUOTE]
That video doesn’t discount Kung Fu or eye gouges. All it showed was a big, muscular, MMA guy beating a small guy who thought he had more skills then he did.

73

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;717519]I think this thread is about UFC/MMA fighting and the restricted techniques in that venue. Eye gouging a trained groundfighter when he is mounted is completely different than doing it to someone with whom you are fighting on the street and who is probably clueless about groundfighting.[/QUOTE]

We call it alternately “idiot testing” or “little sister testing”… ie “I used it once on this idiot and it worked” or “I did it on my little sister and it worked”…

Stories like that mean NOTHING… Try it on someone with basic ground fighting knowledge (Sambo, BJJ, Judo, what have you) and see what happens… and, again, we aren’t even talking elite fighters. Anyone with a few months of BJJ can avoid an eye gouge and get that arm lock to break…

74

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;717519]I think this thread is about UFC/MMA fighting and the restricted techniques in that venue. Eye gouging a trained groundfighter when he is mounted is completely different than doing it to someone with whom you are fighting on the street and who is probably clueless about groundfighting.[/QUOTE]

Anything will work on someone who is clueless LOL.

Odd things work on the trained professionals too. If an opportunity arises, whoops, there goes the eye. Now, KF, if you really focused on eyegouging at all opportunties you can find or create in your training program, I bet you’d get pretty **** good at it. And I bet your grappling game would be completely different if headbutts or biting were allowed.

75

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717524]IN all the years I’ve trained with other martial artists, the people who had similarly strong grips actually weren’t CMA people, they were GRAPPLERS…[/QUOTE]
What about the “real deal” CMA people you met over the years? Not the bottom of the barrel that some MMA people think represents all Kung Fu. For example, you praised the Shuai Jiao folks you trained with. What about them? What about Wong Ching and that crowd? Hows about Adam Hsu? How were the grips of these martial artists?

76

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717524]MY sifu had a very strong grip, which he used for a variety of things but NOT for trying to pull on a clavicle :rolleyes:

IN all the years I’ve trained with other martial artists, the people who had similarly strong grips actually weren’t CMA people, they were GRAPPLERS…[/QUOTE]

When did I state that the clavicle pull is the holy grail of CMA? You guys need to stop.

Ikfmdc

Why do you even claim Sifu Chan Tai San lineage? It seems you only use his name and greatness to promote yourself. You are not even a kung fu artist.

77

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717450]

fence hopping Ross.

(snip)

No matter how Ross tries to deny it, he is a CMA player making it work.

[/QUOTE]

There’s definitely a fence, and I definitely sit on one side of it. The side I sit on is people who are grounded in reality and working to make themselves better. They don’t have to be pro fighters, they don’t even have to be amateurs. But they have open minds, work hard and test what they do

I could care less what others want to label me. I’ve clearly said my base is the material CTS taught me. I’ve also said I have no problem giving credit to western boxing, Greco Roman, BJJ, Judo, and other non CMA I’ve studied

What’s funnier is that some people on here would rather try and rant and rave for days to DENY my CMA than to call me a “CMA player” so whose in “denial”?

78

[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717528]We call it alternately “idiot testing” or “little sister testing”… ie “I used it once on this idiot and it worked” or “I did it on my little sister and it worked”…

Stories like that mean NOTHING… Try it on someone with basic ground fighting knowledge (Sambo, BJJ, Judo, what have you) and see what happens… and, again, we aren’t even talking elite fighters. Anyone with a few months of BJJ can avoid an eye gouge and get that arm lock to break…[/QUOTE]

I thought these techniques didn’t work period. Now they don’t work against “trained” or “elite” fighters. Cuz you would have done this and then that and then this!

Trained or elite fighters are hard to fight period. Sometimes they can reverse a situation, sometimes they can’t. How often do you watch MMA matches and ask yourself how the heck did he just get caught with that? $hit happens all the time.

79

[QUOTE=Flying-Monkey;717536]

Ikfmdc

Why do you even claim Sifu Chan Tai San lineage?

[/QUOTE]

Uh, let’s see, because he is my teacher and I spent over 16 years with him… :rolleyes:

[QUOTE=Flying-Monkey;717536]

It seems you only use his name and greatness to promote yourself.
[/QUOTE]

How do I use his name? My school isn’t named after him. MY web page isn’t covered in pictures of him. MY web page doesn’t have his name mentioned on every single page, every other paragraph. I’d bet you most people wouldn’t even know I was a CTS student from a casual read of my web page

Frankly, I don’t and never needed CTS name to promote myself. My school, the classes, the material I teach my students, the hours I spend with them and the RESULTS are how I’ve promoted myself

Hate to burst your bubble, but I’m known for producing fighters that win, not CTS. In fact, in the circles I run in a lot of people don’t know a tiger claw from a bear claw pastry…

[QUOTE=Flying-Monkey;717536]

You are not even and kung fu artist.

[/QUOTE]

Funny, I just posted a response to Abel along these lines. Funny how people can’t grasp that a person who is only interested in fighting is a CMA player? Sort of sad actually :smiley:

80

[QUOTE=gabe;717541]

I thought these techniques didn’t work period.

[/QUOTE]

Re-read some of the posts. They are LOW PERCENTAGE and they won’t work if you don’t have a “delivery system”. They won’t be of any use to you if you can’t block a hook, avoid a takedown or escape a bottom position

[QUOTE=gabe;717541]

Now they don’t work against “trained” or “elite” fighters.

Cuz you would have done this and then that and then this!

[/QUOTE]

I think you ignored the entire second part of my post about how we are NOT talking about elite fighters. Anyone with a few months basic ground fighting training is gonna counter your “tricks”