I know this has been done to death in other threads and it has just been touched on in the multiple styles thread. Plus I was just now watching “Best Defense” Concealed Carry Gone Wrong.
Close Quarter empty-hand skills are a part self defense even with a sidearm on hand. So are MA skills out of date in a gun culture like the US?
Obviously not, but does MMA type training fit the bill?
I really don’t think so. For the guys that carry have you looked at your CMA with an eye towards covering yourself until you can draw your firearm safely and fire if needed?
I don’t think it fits the bill in some of that area, but a lot of it translates over. The grappling conforms very nicely to some of it, (unless fighting multi. people, always have to throw that in there for the idiots that preach about grappling not working) But time and place dictate those issues. But if its a one on one confrontation and you are able to get into range for takedown or clinch then a lot of the training that teaches positioning comes into light and shines.
anytime guns are involved is a very tricky line. Someone pulls a gun on you from a distance of say 10ft. you are pretty much screwed and at the whim of attacker no matter what styles you conform to.
The gun at a distance is what usually comes to mind to most folks. I’m looking from the gun owner pov, not someone assaulting with a gun.
What I mean is close quarters work. The program demonstrated attack situations that required hand skills to set up a safe gun draw. It highlighted bad practices that could cause attacker to get your gun. Keep in mind at some point you need to go one-handed so the other hand can safely draw the gun.
I’ve seen moves in different KF styles that seemed to fit the situation so I wanted to hear opinion from others.
Unfortunately just a short piece of the clip here. It’s just that a lot of people think TMA is obsolete because of guns but here is a good example where just having a gun isn’t enough.
[QUOTE=Yao Sing;1151585]I know this has been done to death in other threads and it has just been touched on in the multiple styles thread. Plus I was just now watching “Best Defense” Concealed Carry Gone Wrong.
Close Quarter empty-hand skills are a part self defense even with a sidearm on hand. So are MA skills out of date in a gun culture like the US?
Obviously not, but does MMA type training fit the bill?
I really don’t think so. For the guys that carry have you looked at your CMA with an eye towards covering yourself until you can draw your firearm safely and fire if needed?[/QUOTE]
I have worked with police here and there are several factors in being able to use your gun.
#1 Your drawing speed and skill. How fast can you draw it out of where you have it holstered.
#2 The distance away your opponent is. I forgot the actuall distance, but if someone is closer than 10’ he can charge you faster than you can draw out your weapon.
#3 Grappling skills. Chinese grappling called Chin Na / Kum Na / is the best defense for hand to hand with any weapon (gun, knife etc etc). To control your opponent so he can not access your gun and to be able draw it.
I think there’s the ‘21-foot rule’, or something to that effect, where if, for example, a determined knife-wielding attacker is within 21 feet, he can close the distance and stab you before you can draw your gun (if it isn’t out and ready). I believe even if it’s already in shooting position, they’re taught to move off the line of attack as they fire.
Frank Cucci had some really nice techniques combining his JKD with being armed.
From what I was taught, the weaver stance with one foot back, allows one to have his weapon back with the lead hand to guard as he brings his weapon into position, as opposed to the isocolese (sp?) which has both hands out in front.
Better for weapon retention as well as quick target aquisition.
Combat has been upgraded many times since men first started fighting amongst themselves. The club, the blade, then the gun. The firearm is difficult to defend against if the person holding it is savvy. Most people will not be. You see people holding a gun at arms length. That is dangerous. If you want to keep hold of it and be able to use it in a close in situation, you keep it close to the body where you can protect it. If someone grabs your arm it renders the gun usless. In the military they teach several methods of defending against a firearm that is most likely to be confronted, and several ways to defend that weapon from being taken from you. Not a whole system, just a few techniques that prove to work. The fact is, you are in grave danger if someone draws a gun on you. However, rather than being shot, you might possibly be able to defend yourself against it if you have the skills and techniques to do so. If you get shot, you are about to get shot anyway. If you manage to disarm the guy you have successfully defended your life. So go ahead and learn how to react to a gun attack and hope it never goes from push to shove.
[QUOTE=Jimbo;1151696]I think there’s the ‘21-foot rule’, or something to that effect, where if, for example, a determined knife-wielding attacker is within 21 feet, he can close the distance and stab you before you can draw your gun (if it isn’t out and ready). I believe even if it’s already in shooting position, they’re taught to move off the line of attack as they fire.[/QUOTE]
Correct, though I am not sure about the exact distance.
The Dog Brothers in their excellent video series “Die Less Often”, show graphic video evidence of such.
kung fu can provide you with a good foundation to start from. a lot of people think kung fu should look like ti does in the movies or how they do their forms and drills. and it doesn’t. once people get that out of their heads they will be better off.
The OP was about adapting empty-hands training to help you draw and effectively use your own gun at close quarters, not how to defend against an armed opponent! Reading comprehension issues, guys?
Anyway, where I live, anybody, at least any adult non-felon, can carry openly or concealed. So many people do walk around armed. At my Escrima class, the instructor and a couple of students carry everywhere. They even train with their knives and guns under their sweats. Kinda over the top, if you ask me, but I like the class, so what the heck.
Now back to the OP. If you are carrying a firearm, the most important thing is to train techniques that will let you get a bit of distance so you have a chance to deploy safely. Otherwise, I’d say learn knife techniques. My instructor can get his knife out and use it lethally from any range including clinching and grappling. At close range a knife is just as good as a gun. Some say better.
It was a spur of the moment thread based off a show I just watched discussing the issue. I have a concealed carry permit and I realized I hadn’t addressed the CQB aspect of drawing. Maybe I felt me Kung Fu/Karate training would carry me until I could draw safely but I hadn’t actually practiced it.
Seemed like a good topic since by now there are probably a lot of MAists that carry. 20 years ago I was training at a small Kung Fu school in El Paso, TX and one of the guys was CIA and had to have his gun at least in the room within easy reach at all times. I’m surprised he didn’t keep it on him while training but he was new to the job.
[QUOTE=Grumblegeezer;1152664]The OP was about adapting empty-hands training to help you draw and effectively use your own gun at close quarters, not how to defend against an armed opponent! Reading comprehension issues, guys?
Anyway, where I live, anybody, at least any adult non-felon, can carry openly or concealed. So many people do walk around armed. At my Escrima class, the instructor and a couple of students carry everywhere. They even train with their knives and guns under their sweats. Kinda over the top, if you ask me, but I like the class, so what the heck.
Now back to the OP. If you are carrying a firearm, the most important thing is to train techniques that will let you get a bit of distance so you have a chance to deploy safely. Otherwise, I’d say learn knife techniques. My instructor can get his knife out and use it lethally from any range including clinching and grappling. At close range a knife is just as good as a gun. Some say better.[/QUOTE]
+1 regarding knives.
There are some LEOs who carry/train with a knife carried on their non-dominant side to aid in close-quarter weapon retention in case the felon goes for their gun. Many carry the common clip-carry one-hand folders, but there are medium-to-small-sized fixed-blade knives made esp. for that purpose.
imo its all about fixed blades if you’re being realistic. why bother with having to worry opening a folder when you can draw and be ready. you draw a folder just as you would a fixed blade, yet have an additional step to have it live.
I carry a Spyderco folder all the time but it’s used as a screwdriver/all purpose tool more than anything.
If I were geared up for possible trouble I have a few straight knives. I do that for hiking/camping mostly since I don’t frequent bad neihborhoods much these days.
Other than where you’re pulling from a gun and knife are probably about the same (if you can pull one safely you can pull the other just as easy).
Suggestions on CMA empty hand styles to augment weapons carry? Short hand styles (Wing Chun, Bak Mei, etc) or Eagle Claw, CLF etc.?
In my not terribly humble opinion; regardless of of whether we are talking hand to hand, bladed, or firearms it comes down to attitude, experience and training. Someone whos only firearms qual is a CCP vs one someone who is (for example) unarmed but has been trained and has had actual combat experience the CCP is going to end up with his pistol stuffed into a private orifice.
I dont think it really matters even if youre at a Black Belt level. If youve never been in an actual fight and youre facing someone with scars on their knuckles and a nose thats been broke half a dozen times. Youre likely to have your ass handed to you.
[QUOTE=KungFuBiker;1152788]In my not terribly humble opinion; regardless of of whether we are talking hand to hand, bladed, or firearms it comes down to attitude, experience and training. Someone who’s only firearms qual is a CCP vs one someone who is (for example) unarmed but has been trained and has had actual combat experience the CCP is going to end up with his pistol stuffed into a private orifice.
I don’t think it really matters even if you’re at a “Black Belt” level. If you’ve never been in an actual fight and you’re facing someone with scars on their knuckles and a nose that’s been broke half a dozen times. You’re likely to have your ass handed to you.[/QUOTE]
(Scouting for gunmen in a local saloon.)
Miguel: There’s one! Look at all the scars on his face!
Hilario: The man for us is the one who gave him that face.
Chris Adams: Hey, you learn fast.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1152735]imo its all about fixed blades if you’re being realistic. why bother with having to worry opening a folder when you can draw and be ready. you draw a folder just as you would a fixed blade, yet have an additional step to have it live.[/QUOTE]
This is where the 'interface" between armed and unarmed goes.
You use your empty hand fighting to get into position to draw the blade ( or gun).
Its the difference between “knife fighting” and “fighting with a knife”.
Symantics yes, but it CAN be something more.
