I’ve been practicing Northern Shaolin Long Fist with Sifu Kevin
Miller in Memphis TN for about two years now, and, just reasently,
i visited his masters school in Chicago where one of the long time black belts has been training for MMA fighting.
The black belt has won his first fight, tapping the guy out 30 seconds, and he is an incredibly skilled teacher to work with. Thinking about how the black belt fought when we were sparring, how he looked just like any other skilled MMA fighter in terms of technique, I began to think about why their was nothing particularly "kung fu" about the way he fights.
The answer i've come to is that the many styles of kung fu, excluding Sanda and contemporary wushu, were developed for no rule street fighting , im not saying that kickboxing, MMA, and other sport based combat forms are useless on the streets (many sport fighters would woop poorly trained TMA's). What im saying is that the many techniques and options of kung fu are based in a format where their is no right way, no set environment, no rules, meaning that their is no way to come to a perfect method of fighting as the context of a street fight is never the same.
In MMA one fights in a set environment, with set rules, what this creates is an almost permanent context, whats called a constant in science. This means that with every MMA bout, just like an experiment, the techniques and methods of the practitioners can be modified to better suit the specific context of an MMA cage, rule set, etc.
the conclusion is that a well trained Kung Fu practitioner, like the black belt I spoke of, can have great success but not without adaption. kickboxing (or muay thai)/ jujitsu (or wrestling), combination has already been found to be arguably the most effective combination for an MMA environment and rule set. I don't believe that one will ever see the wide rage of Kung Fu techniques and methods on display in the MMA venue; not because they are not effective, but because, unlike the street, the MMA environment offers a set context where a perfect combination of techniques and methods can exist and one must adopt in order to succeed
[QUOTE=Rojcewicz;852901]I’ve been practicing Northern Shaolin Long Fist with Sifu Kevin
Miller in Memphis TN for about two years now, and, just reasently,
i visited his masters school in Chicago where one of the long time black belts has been training for MMA fighting. The black belt has won his first fight, tapping the guy out 30 seconds,
…stuff…
the conclusion is that a well trained Kung Fu practitioner, like the black belt I spoke of, can have great success but not without adaption.
…more stuff…
[/QUOTE]
He trains northern shaolin and he tapped someone in a MMA fight? Don’t tell he he pull some old school standing Chin na. Remember you said WITHOUT ADAPTION.
Honestly I’m willing to bet money that if you posted the clip of him winning, its going to look like any other fight. So what Northern Shaolin submission did he use? If you say… rnc,guilitine, key-lock,armbar, triangle or any none Northern Shaolin technique your going to contradict yourself.
Its not as easy as it looks. Just becouse you can spar decently with your friends doesn’t mean you should compete in MMA. If they had some type of amature MMA then that may be a good idea.
No matter how you look at it, you going into the fight with a massive disadvantage without basic ground skills. Someone with only a few months of training is probably going to smoke you if it goes to the ground.
What about conditioning? I think conditioning is the most important factor not what style you train. Give me a crappy TKD fighter with basic ground skills and amazing conditioning.. he probably would do pretty good at a low level MMA fight.
Take some TMA guy with good sparring skills, and no ground game, and average person conditioning… Hope you have good medical insurance.
Its fun to watch, and even to train a little but..
JMO
as a general rule of thumb if you have a Black belt in any style other than BJJ/JUDO.. you probably don’t want to do MMA. Who has belts anyway these days?
I said he DID have to adapt in order to do well in MMA, and the need for a ground game in MMA is not something I question. The statement was that the MMA venue, like all sport venues, is a set context, a set system of rules (with some variation) and a set environment which means there can exist a more “right” method of fighting in MMA; unlike reality fighting which has too many variables to determine a “right” way. A Kung Fu practitioner can have all the skills necessary (sometimes more so) but will always have to adopt the MMA fighting method to be successful.
[QUOTE=Rojcewicz;852912]I said he DID have to adapt in order to do well in MMA, and the need for a ground game in MMA is not something I question. The statement was that the MMA venue, like all sport venues, is a set context, a set system of rules (with some variation) and a set environment which means there can exist a more “right” method of fighting in MMA; unlike reality fighting which has too many variables to determine a “right” way. A Kung Fu practitioner can have all the skills necessary (sometimes more so) but will always have to adopt the MMA fighting method to be successful.[/QUOTE]
again the style you come from plays less of a role in MMA vrs conditioning, training, and being “well rounded”. If by kung fu you mean Sanda/san shou sure. If on the other hand you mean something like what you see in a wushu competition, its not to realistic. 90 of what you would see isn’t applicable. We can play semantics on whether they are or not. The basic universal strikes are found in probably every style. Outside of those basic universal strikes, its not going to be practical. The underlying truth again isn’t that I come from a “kung fu” background. its am I prepared for the fight. Given the average “kung fu” training the answer is probably no. Just watch MMA, you will quickly find that everyone comes from TMA. Does Bas do things the way Cro cop or Chuck does? What about
GSP? or fill in the blank.
Everyone who is into MMA knows that no “right” way exists. Fads exists, and they come and go. MMA is filled with a variety of fighters in both areas of standup and ground fighting. Everyone trains some version of MT and some version of BJJ. If they don’t it “looks” like these styles. Sanda “looks” like MT. CSW or whatever “looks” like BJJ. What I mean by looks is that it has similar techniques, training methods and tactics. Yet They are all obviously vastly different.
[QUOTE=Rojcewicz;852901]The answer i’ve come to is that the many styles of kung fu, excluding Sanda and contemporary wushu, were developed for no rule street fighting , im not saying that kickboxing, MMA, and other sport based combat forms are useless on the streets (many sport fighters would woop poorly trained TMA’s). What im saying is that the many techniques and options of kung fu are based in a format where their is no right way, no set environment, no rules, meaning that their is no way to come to a perfect method of fighting as the context of a street fight is never the same. [/QUOTE]
This is mere theory.
If your kung fu works, the ring doesn’t magically make it not work.
I have seen alot of these kinds of debate, from the TMA side to the MMA side, I wonder where TMA seems to fail ? Is it only ground work ? Are there any advantages to TMA specific strikes or delivery methods ? I don’t know enough about mma rules but what striking common to tma’s is not allowed in mma that could be limiting it or is it really that the tma community does not want to train for this format of fighting ?
[QUOTE=AdrianUK;852937]I have seen alot of these kinds of debate, from the TMA side to the MMA side, I wonder where TMA seems to fail ? Is it only ground work ? Are there any advantages to TMA specific strikes or delivery methods ? I don’t know enough about mma rules but what striking common to tma’s is not allowed in mma that could be limiting it or is it really that the tma community does not want to train for this format of fighting ?
Thanks for any replies[/QUOTE]
TMA don’t fail in MMA, their techniques are present in MMA.
Its when a fighter that trains solely in one TMA that he/she fails in MMA.
TMA don’t fail in MMA, their techniques are present in MMA.
Its when a fighter that trains solely in one TMA that he/she fails in MMA.
Is that really the case ? Of the limited MMA I have seen (Cage Rage, early UFC, some Pride) the few TMA guys seem to be unable to land effective strikes (discounting the ground work), does that not point to a delivery system failure ? Why does the TMA delivery model fail even at the striking level ? I would guess at the training of the delivery failing under pressure but surely this should be the easiest thing to correct ?
I hate tournament fighting. You can’t rip out their eyes, which is normally the best way to win a fight. I promise you… take an eye…just one, and victory is yours.
Is that really the case ? Of the limited MMA I have seen (Cage Rage, early UFC, some Pride) the few TMA guys seem to be unable to land effective strikes (discounting the ground work), does that not point to a delivery system failure ? Why does the TMA delivery model fail even at the striking level ? I would guess at the training of the delivery failing under pressure but surely this should be the easiest thing to correct ?
answered:
Training method > style
Outside some of the “newest inventions” in MMA, the high percentage moves are all found in TMA, so its not the TMA techniques that fail, its how they are applied by certain fighters, ie: training method like MK said.
IMO, no one is ‘tougher’ than boxers. But you put a good, tough boxer in an MMA fight he will lose more often than not. Although training methods are quite important, you need to train in effective styles for striking, grappling, and the clinch.
[QUOTE=Drake;852967]I hate tournament fighting. You can’t rip out their eyes, which is normally the best way to win a fight. I promise you… take an eye…just one, and victory is yours.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=1bad65;852979]This is partially true, but not 100%.
IMO, no one is ‘tougher’ than boxers. But you put a good, tough boxer in an MMA fight he will lose more often than not. Although training methods are quite important, you need to train in effective styles for striking, grappling, and the clinch.[/QUOTE]
MMA is not a style, it’s a rule set. One must always compensate for rule-sets.
[QUOTE=Drake;852992]Sharks aren’t immune to the eye rule.[/QUOTE]
So since sharks aren’t immune to the eye rule…and since sharks (or their ancestors) have been around since the dinosaurs right? So they must be pretty bad @$$…So with the issues brought up in this thread: http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/forum/showthread.php?t=50632
Is it possible to say maybe our ancestors knew this? And went on an eye gouging spree and ended the age of the dinos? And if some nut job scientist makes a real life Jurassic Park and they get loose to the threat of common man…we may take up arms…and phalanges…to defend ourselves from the onslought of ravenous reptiles?
