UFC rules and TMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
41

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;717446]Of course, all of those techniques can potentially be used. However, all of the “deadly” techniques are even more deadly when used by someone who has a very good delivery system… they are icing on the cake. Those are all things that someone can do if they are good. Someone who has a really good delivery system (punches, kicks, knees, clinch and ground) will be much more effective in using these techniques against someone with a less effective system.

The UFC promotors were originally worried about the guys (mostly TMA) who didn’t have very effective delivery systems getting severely hurt or killed by those who had the effective delivery systems if the later used the “dirty” techniques on them.

As it is, all of the fighters are now protected. But at the same time, all the fighters are also limited in their techniques- this includes the MMA fighters.[/QUOTE]

KF,
I’m addressing the premise or assumption that techniques not used my MMAists are ineffective or useless. You’ve just buttressed my argument, which Ross is attempting to counter. Eyegouges and headbutts are effective and also illegal.

To succeed in MMA, you’ve got to conform to the rules. Maximize them to your advantage. But that doesn’t mean that techniques outside the rules are ineffective and useless. MMA are just as susceptible to a headbutt as a tma’er. I don’t get your point, those rules protect the MMAer just as much. Skilled MMAers, crappy ones, tma’ers, all of them need protection from a nice little headbutt while your standing up or on the bottom or on the top.

And no one is going to argue that you don’t need an effective delivery system. Yes, they are all limited in what they can do in the ring, MMAist included. That’s the point. Some skill sets are outside of those limitations while that is the world that MMAists thrive in, the good ones at least.

42

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717450]That the UFC is the only measure of anything… [/QUOTE]
The UFC is only one measure… but it is a much more accurate measure than the one used by those who never venture outside of their comfy little training zones.

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717450]And even in said UFC, things that they say are impossible then come to pass and it magically becomes acceptable. [/QUOTE]
What’s great about the UFC and other MMA venues is that they allow for evolution through full application. Since they are constantly testing techniques under fire and looking for advantages, they can take unworkable technques and modify them to the point where they become effective… however, this can only happen under the hard and brutal testing that comes from this type of training.

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717450]That measure even the very least player in CMA against the very top of thier venue even though there are as many crappy players under them as in all MA. [/QUOTE]
On of the best measures is the average practitioner vs. the average practitioner.

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717450]Bottom line, the reason CMA isn’t in MMA is mostly political. All other reasons are just abberations. There is no physical or tactical reason one in CMA couldn’t go into MMA if that is one’s desire. And that is the politics of it, People in CMA are being herded into other venues.
[/QUOTE]
The politics are that most CMA instructors have a vested interest in their students not competing in full-contact venues.

43

Pft, pure spin. Include more of my post next time. I’m not even going to continue this line.

I will add one thing about your “evolution” arguement. If KFM had an archive that dated back far enough I could decimate you arguement with a thousand quotes YOU’VE made over the years. Talk about selective memory. UFC invented the roundkick. :rolleyes:

44

Ugh, some people on both sides of the fence are deluded. Just try it for yourself instead of supposing and you will know the answers, but I guess that is too much to ask?

10 year striker vs. 2 year grappler, the striker will win if he keeps it in his game 9/10 times

10 year grappler vs. 2 year striker, the grappler will win if he keeps it in his game 9/10 times

The bottom line is, if you devote a large part of your life to either, you like know more tricks than the average joe in your chosen skill set, and will be able to dominate them fairly well because of this. This point is rendered moot if you dont train realistically, but there ARE schools that train realistic striking, just as there are oblivious grappling schools.

I really dont think one is better than the other, they are just preferences. If you pick up buildings by nature, then grappling is going to come to you quick, and if you like pounding things into dust, then striking. If you dont have either in your nature, then you just have to train and see where the road takes you. There are really too many variables to make blanket statements, so why not just go do it yourself?

45

[QUOTE=Flying-Monkey;717303]At first, I agreed with most MMAist in this forum about CMAist crying about the rules in tournaments like UFC. However, after visiting the UFC website, I do not feel that UFC rules are good for a lot of TMA techniques. Here is the list of fouls from the UFC website.

  • = not good for TMA
    **= not good for TMA but should not be allowed.

Fouls: [Top]
*1. Butting with the head.
**2. Eye gouging of any kind.
3. Biting.
*4. Hair pulling.
**5. Fish hooking.
*6. Groin attacks of any kind.
**7. Putting a finger into any orifice or into any cut or laceration on an opponent.
*8. Small joint manipulation.
**9. Striking to the spine or the back of the head.
*10. Striking downward using the point of the elbow.
*11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
*12. Clawing, pinching or twisting the flesh. <—this is one of my favorate attacks
*13. Grabbing the clavicle. <—this is one of my favorate attacks
*14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
*15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
*16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
*17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.
**18. Spiking an opponent to the canvas on his head or neck.
19. Throwing an opponent out of the ring or fenced area.
*20. Holding the shorts or gloves of an opponent.
21. Spitting at an opponent.
22. Engaging in an unsportsmanlike conduct that causes an injury to an opponent.
23. Holding the ropes or the fence.
24. Using abusive language in the ring or fenced area.
25. Attacking an opponent on or during the break.
26. Attacking an opponent who is under the care of the referee.
27. Attacking an opponent after the bell has sounded the end of the period of unarmed combat.
28. Flagrantly disregarding the instructions of the referee.
29. Timidity, including, without limitation, avoiding contact with an opponent, intentionally or consistently dropping the mouthpiece or faking an injury.
30. Interference by the corner.
31. Throwing in the towel during competition.

Now, I know I will get heII from MMAist, but you must admit. Now that many fighters are used to JJ, many TMA do not make the same mistakes.[/QUOTE]

**11. Throat strikes of any kind, including, without limitation, grabbing the trachea.
**14. Kicking the head of a grounded opponent.
**15. Kneeing the head of a grounded opponent.
**16. Stomping a grounded opponent.
**17. Kicking to the kidney with the heel.

dude these are not good for cma in a competition, you dont want to kill the person.

and plus, when you get into a ring and do their rules, its basically you are doing the same thing as them. the cma basically goes out the window.

then you get people going,
like in the taiwan swat thread.
that looks like a tkd kick, that looks like a mauy thai kick. that looks like jujitsu, or thats bjj.
the fact of the matter is its a kick. a kick is a kick, it has the same result, you hit someone hard with your leg. an arm bar is an arm bar, still same result, you break their elbow.
stop trying to break it all down. its all chinese martial arts anyways.

46

[QUOTE=gabe;717461]I’m addressing the premise or assumption that techniques not used my MMAists are ineffective or useless. [/QUOTE]
Those techniques are not useless at all. In fact they can be killler tools to have in one’s toolbox. However, you’ve got to know when to use them and when to not use them. Trying to eye gouge someone when you are mounted on them is hugely different than trying to eye gouge someone when the postitions are reversed. The first is highly effective. The second is a big mistake.

I could show you some devastating toe breaks. Unfortunately, you wouldn’t be able to use them unless you were skilled at getting into position and isolating the foot.

Some of the Filipino biting “systems” can be very effective. These techniques are much more effective for someone who understads the positioning that is used in MMA fighting.

[QUOTE=gabe;717461]Eyegouges and headbutts are effective and also illegal. [/QUOTE]
They are most effective for the more effective fighter.

MMA are just as susceptible to a headbutt as a tma’er.

But the MMA fighter is usually more adept at getting to a position to deliver them.

Some skill sets are outside of those limitations while that is the world that MMAists thrive in, the good ones at least.

The point that the TMA artists make is that these things would even the playing field if they were allowed… they would not, however, make things more even. They would just tilt them more in favor of the MMA fighters.

47

Lueb,

You’re not helping.

48

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;717479]
The point that [some] TMA artists make is that these things would even the playing field if they were allowed… they would not, however, make things more even. They would just tilt them more in favor of the MMA fighters.[/QUOTE]

fixed…

49

[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;717477]
and plus, when you get into a ring and do their rules, its basically you are doing the same thing as them. the cma basically goes out the window.

then you get people going,
like in the taiwan swat thread.
that looks like a tkd kick, that looks like a mauy thai kick. that looks like jujitsu, or thats bjj.
the fact of the matter is its a kick. a kick is a kick, it has the same result, you hit someone hard with your leg. an arm bar is an arm bar, still same result, you break their elbow.
stop trying to break it all down. [/QUOTE]

I don’t agree. CMA is not about what is at the end of the spear. Its about everything behind it.

A kick is a kick. You had it right there.

50

ufc rules were basically none existent in the 1st one. lots of people got hurt.

the rules established now are to make sure you can have a good fight, that is trying to be as realistic as possible without hurting the people too bad so they can go back and fight another day.

i have to say i agree with these rules, although i would like to see chin na used. that would take it to a good level.

but when tma steps into the ring with these rules, it becomes the same thing that these rules are designed for, kick boxing. cause they are basically what they are kickboxing rules, and rules for jujitsu of some kind.

face it, thats what it is.

yes sifu able it is what is behind the training.

51

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717484]A kick is a kick. You had it right there.[/QUOTE]
Ah… but a kick is not just a kick.
There’s a world of difference between a flicky little toe kick and a baseball bat shin kick.

52

I didn’t misspell my name. :smiley:

53

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;717488]Ah… but a kick is not just a kick.
There’s a world of difference between a flicky little toe kick and a baseball bat shin kick.[/QUOTE]

Or a break your jaw round kick. You MT nuthugger. And we don’t hit with the toe, you clueless jerk off.

54

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717490]Or a break your jaw round kick. You MT nuthugger. And we don’t hit with the toe, you clueless jerk off.[/QUOTE]

sifu abel

this is why i dont even bother with arguments on the internet.

knife fighter

a flicky toe kick is a flicky toe kick. end result you flick a toe at them.

a jaw breaking round house kick is a jaw breaking round house kick. end result = break jaw.

does it matter if the technique for doing it is MT, TKD, CMA? no, it has the same effect.

55

Lueb,

You don’t seem to get it.

ALL round kicks other the MT round kick are included in this dillweeds on going fight for growth hormone therapy.

56

[QUOTE=Shaolinlueb;717491]does it matter if the technique for doing it is MT, TKD, CMA? no, it has the same effect.[/QUOTE]
Doesn’t matter where it comes from… if it is effective, it is effective… if it is not, it is not.

However, some systems have more flicky little toe kicks than others… while others spend no time at all on those types of kicks.

57

[QUOTE=SifuAbel;717492]Lueb,

You don’t seem to get it.

ALL round kicks other the MT round kick are included in this dillweeds on going fight for growth hormone therapy.[/QUOTE]

hahahahaahahhahaahhaahhahaha

ill leave this convo then.

58

instead they spin around and hope not to get hit in the back. :rolleyes:

59

You guys are too funny. You are so caught up in defending your little CMA worlds that you miss any useful points. All you see is attacks on CMA, even when they are not there.

A kick is not a kick because there are a variety of different kicks that are useful in different scenarios.

The flicky little toe kick that does no damage with sandals becomes a devastating strike when done with pointy-toe cowboy boots.

The devastating shin kick that knocks the wind out of your opponent doesn’t do much when you and your opponent are in snowboarding clothes.

A shin kick is not necessarily a shin kick and a flicky toe kick is not a necessarily flicky toe kick… and a flicky toe kick is definitely not a roundhouse shin kick.

60

[QUOTE=Knifefighter;717479]Those techniques are not useless at all. In fact they can be killler tools to have in one’s toolbox. However, you’ve got to know when to use them and when to not use them. Trying to eye gouge someone when you are mounted on them is hugely different than trying to eye gouge someone when the postitions are reversed. The first is highly effective. The second is a big mistake.

I could show you some devastating toe breaks. Unfortunately, you wouldn’t be able to use them unless you were skilled at getting into position and isolating the foot.

Some of the Filipino biting “systems” can be very effective. These techniques are much more effective for someone who understads the positioning that is used in MMA fighting.

They are most effective for the more effective fighter.

But the MMA fighter is usually more adept at getting to a position to deliver them.

The point that the TMA artists make is that these things would even the playing field if they were allowed… they would not, however, make things more even. They would just tilt them more in favor of the MMA fighters.[/QUOTE]

I agree with everything except that last bit, which isn’t worth arguing.