UFC rules and TMA

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Mixed Martial Arts
21

Mantis 108 - “Dirty Fighting” ??? DUDE!!!

Sorry, in my humble opinion, “dirty fighting” is well within the bounds of Kung Fu

Now, in a sporting context, breaking the rules in bad form, that is why its called sport, fair enough, but no such thing as dirty fighting in my book, when your life is on the line. If you can’t just walk away, then you take control and you end it. The longer the fight lasts, the greater the chance you’ll get hurt.

Punch,

As for gripping strength and effectiveness, a classic example of a skill a gloved fighter can’t use. Grapplers probably appreciate it a bit more, but it can be a fight ender. I’m not talking silly, about ripping hunks of flesh out, more along the lines of taking arms out of action momentarially, and chin na.

There’s a saying, “once I get my hands on you, you’re mine.” Bridge fighting relies on sticking, and grip is a good sticky technique.

So, TCMA isn’t suited to sport fighting. So what! Old news.

22

So, I guess it’s time to dig up “John Marsh vs San Soo kung fu” guy clip since that fight had no rules. Mr San Soo tried to eye gouge, grab hair, etc… if I remember correctly, Mr San Soo said he was gonna take an eye out BEFORE THE FIGHT

Of course, stuck on the bottom and with no idea how to escape, it all became a moot point.

Again, you’d all be better served working take down defenses and how to get back on your feet from your back than relying on biting :rolleyes: , gouging, clavicle grabbing, etc etc etc

23

And people wonder why I deride kung fu guys.

It’s really hard to keep from busting out laughing when reading some of this stuff from people who’s closest encounter with MMA is to see it on television.

[QUOTE=Flying-Monkey;717320]Try to fight someone who has strong hand squeezing power (130lbs or more in one hand). They can EASILY dislocate the clavicle.[/QUOTE]
Too funny.,
Give me a break.
How many clavicles have you dislocated by grabbing and squeezing them?
Talk about clueless.

[QUOTE=The Xia;717315]Of course not! TMA can be used, you just can’t do certain techniques.[/QUOTE]
And those are the same techniques that the MMA fighters are not allowed to use either. Imagine how much worse it would be for the TMA fighters if the MMA fighters were allowed to use those techniques against the TMA fighters… there would be quite a few deaths in the ring.

[QUOTE=Samurai Jack;717360] I have no doubt whatsoever that most of the MMA guys competing wouldn’t last in the old “No Rules” format.[/QUOTE]
Um… did you hear about the Royce Gracie/Matt Hughes fight? Royce, who uses pretty much the same tools he used in the early UFC’s to destroy the TMA guys, was schooled by Matt, a modern-day MMA figher.

Let a modern MMA fighter use all the restricted tools that he is currently banned from using and he would literally kill many TMA guys.

[QUOTE=Samurai Jack;717360]If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn’t be illegal, and they wouldn’t have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).[/QUOTE]
The reason they were banned was to protect the TMA guys who were already getting beaten so badly. The MMA guys who were beginnig to use a variety of modern training and fighting methods were doing some serious damage to the more traditional guys. There was serious concern that a clueless TMA guy would enter the competition and get killed in the ring.

One of the early controversies among the promoters of the UFC was if the more restrictive rules were actually giving the TMA guys more of an advantage by making it harder for the more combat sports oriented fighters to beat them. Restriction of elbow strikes was a huge controversy, since this was a main tool of the BJJ guys.

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;717361]As for gripping strength and effectiveness, a classic example of a skill a gloved fighter can’t use. [/QUOTE]
Have you trained with MMA gloves? They don’t affect one’s grip at all.

[QUOTE=Yum Cha;717361]Grapplers probably appreciate it a bit more, but it can be a fight ender. more along the lines of taking arms out of action momentarially, [/QUOTE]
No… grapplers know how stupid and ineffective trying to end a fight by “take someone’s arm out of action” by grabbing it is, since that is perfectly legal in wrestling and submission grappling competitions.

24

A dead horse that has been beaten!!

I think the reason many Kung Fu and other TMA practioners continue to beat the dead horse is that many refuse to accept that their style of Kung Fu may be incomplete. By incomplete I mean there is no grappling and no submissions(at least realistic ones:rolleyes: ) and even their stand up may be lacking due to improper sparring tactics. Recently I had a student from another Kung Fu style come to my school to train while he was in college(our school is located on campus). He has 18 months of training from this style under his belt, so I allowed him to spar with other students and the instructors. At his previous school he sparred without pads, which I think creates bad habits because regardless you will pull much of your technique. With proper gear you can go at least 75 percent without too much of an injury risk. He was not used to the level of contact, especially at the head where they did not hit while sparring. Also the only submission training they did was pressure point and some Chi Na. When some of us rolled he was very uncomfortable and asked me to roll with him and that he wanted to try the pressure points to see how they worked. I did and when we went to the ground I got side control and then full mount. I didn’t do anything but hold him there while he tried numerous pressure points on me, none of which worked. Afterwards, I and my/our grappling coach explained to him about dominant positioning and how difficult it is to pull off pressure points once someone has you in that position. The point of all this is that if you have not been exposed to the reality of what fighting is you will not know. Most people in the case I just spoke of would accept that their is more to learn or go into denial about it. As for the student I spoke of, he is very receptive and is using what he is learning from us with what he learned from his previous training, some of which was good. So this is not a knock on his style of Kung Fu, because just like mine, it lacked ground fighting and submissions. It does go to show, however, that if you have not been exposed to this kind of fighting and training, you will continue to think that poking someone in the eye or grabbing them by the sack is the be all, end all of techniques. Unfortunately for them, this is rarely the case.

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[QUOTE=Samurai Jack;717360]The fouls are “Foul” because they work exceptionally well against anyone. The fouls level the field, they are fight enders. If MMA guys could all easily handle people who used those techniques, they wouldn’t be illegal, and they wouldn’t have resulted in so many short fights (which is the real reason they were banned).

Claiming that you can easily beat someone on the street who isn’t playing by your rules becase you can roll on a mat makes you just as deluded as the TMA guy who thinks he’s “too deadly for competition”.[/QUOTE]

nah, not really. groin shots aren’t necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I’ve been kicked there and didn’t feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

In the old vale tudo, gerard gordeau DID eye gouge yuki nakai. Yuki won the fight anyway with a heel hook. He went on to also beat his next opponent and fight in the finals. However, nakai is now blind in one eye. THAT is why these things are outlawed - the permanent damage they can cause.

26

Samurai Jack,
Excellent post.

KF,
“The reason they were banned was to protect the TMA guys who were already getting beaten so badly. The MMA guys who were beginnig to use a variety of modern training and fighting methods were doing some serious damage to the more traditional guys. There was serious concern that a clueless TMA guy would enter the competition and get killed in the ring.”

The UFC banned headbutts to protect TMA guys? Headbutts only work against TMAists? “too deadly?”

You don’t see situations in the UFC today, with all the modern training and fighting methods used, where headbutts would work? How about the small finger joint manipulations, a UFC competitor I met said they are for the most part banned as well. Not useful? Too deadly? Ineffective in the real world? Fingers are not accessible in grappling situations? Headbutts?

“clueless TMA guy?” When would he ever succeed? Or are all TMA guys clueless? Heh.

27

[QUOTE=SevenStar;717424]nah, not really. groin shots aren’t necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I’ve been kicked there and didn’t feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

In the old vale tudo, gerard gordeau DID eye gouge yuki nakai. Yuki won the fight anyway with a heel hook. He went on to also beat his next opponent and fight in the finals. However, nakai is now blind in one eye. THAT is why these things are outlawed - the permanent damage they can cause.[/QUOTE]

I would have thought eye gouges wouldn’t work in the real world! They’re banned because they are too deadly?

28

Again, who is in the position to use gouging, biting, head butts, stomping, etc

The guy on the BOTTOM, or teh guy on the TOP?

Come on, this isn’t a hard question…

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nah, not really. groin shots aren’t necessarily fight enders. How often have you seen low blows end a fight? it merely stalls it. In the street, I’ve been kicked there and didn’t feel it till the fight was over. As you said, shamrock puched the guy into submission with REPEATED groin shots. Keith hackney gave joe son several punches to the groin and was still unable to finish him.

Reply]
Is there a ban on wearing cups in the MMA realm?
I would think that a cup would make a groin punch pretty useless. I have taken full KICKs to the groin, and due to the cup it just slowed me for a moment while I grabbed the opponents kne and knocked him over.

Of course I fell down with him, and didn’t know what to do, so i stood back up again, but that is moot. In a real fight that kick would have floored me, and probably killed any future descendants before they were concived. what I would have done on the ground if I had ground skills, would never have mattered in the relm of reality, because I don’t wear a cup as I go about my daily life.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717431]Again, who is in the position to use gouging, biting, head butts, stomping, etc

The guy on the BOTTOM, or teh guy on the TOP?

Come on, this isn’t a hard question…[/QUOTE]

Ummm, well, I would hazard a guess that biting, gouging or headbutts might be the only option at times for the guy on the bottom. It’s either that or be a victim of the ground and pound. Unless you can get out of it of course. Of course, the guy on top is perfectly capable of bending down and biting and gouging and headbutting too. Not pretty but…:smiley:

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[QUOTE=gabe;717434]

Ummm, well, I would hazard a guess that biting, gouging or headbutts might be the only option at times for the guy on the bottom.

[/QUOTE]

No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at “Mr San Soo” who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually

[QUOTE=gabe;717434]

Of course, the guy on top is perfectly capable of bending down and biting and gouging and headbutting too. Not pretty

[/QUOTE]

BINGO! We have a winner :smiley:

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Greetings..

Ring = rules
Street = no rules.. worse, no weight classes, nothing to prevent multiple attackers, no restriction on weapons.. and, not much mercy in the courts..

TCMA, TMA, MMA, Escrima, Muay Thai, whatever.. on any given day, under almost any circumstances.. the better person wins, not the better style.. though, the person can represent a style.. styles don’t fight, people do..

We have chosen violent paths, anything beyond that is a consequence of the choice..

Winning it all in a controlled match is not the goal.. living past 90 and dying from a jealous young husband’s bullet is the goal..

Be well

33

only 90?

Ur such a wuss!

A true Kung Fu exponent would have said 108

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717435]No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at “Mr San Soo” who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually

BINGO! We have a winner :D[/QUOTE]

Personal experience;
I was in a fight in college. Well, I got attacked and it turned into a fight. Anyway, the guy took me down and got me in a guilotine but it wasn’t locked in. I reached up, put both of my thumbs in his eyes and pressed. I said very calmly, “if you don’t let go, I’m going to rip your eyes out”. He let go. I then had superior position and was able to bounce his head off of the floor.

Eye gouges work. But there’s a time and a place just like everything else.

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[QUOTE=gabe;717426]The UFC banned headbutts to protect TMA guys? Headbutts only work against TMAists? “too deadly?”

You don’t see situations in the UFC today, with all the modern training and fighting methods used, where headbutts would work? How about the small finger joint manipulations, a UFC competitor I met said they are for the most part banned as well. Not useful? Too deadly? Ineffective in the real world? Fingers are not accessible in grappling situations? Headbutts?[/QUOTE]
Of course, all of those techniques can potentially be used. However, all of the “deadly” techniques are even more deadly when used by someone who has a very good delivery system… they are icing on the cake. Those are all things that someone can do if they are good. Someone who has a really good delivery system (punches, kicks, knees, clinch and ground) will be much more effective in using these techniques against someone with a less effective system.

The UFC promotors were originally worried about the guys (mostly TMA) who didn’t have very effective delivery systems getting severely hurt or killed by those who had the effective delivery systems if the later used the “dirty” techniques on them.

As it is, all of the fighters are now protected. But at the same time, all the fighters are also limited in their techniques- this includes the MMA fighters.

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Hi Yum Cha,

Mantis 108 - “Dirty Fighting” ??? DUDE!!!

Sorry, in my humble opinion, “dirty fighting” is well within the bounds of Kung Fu

Now, in a sporting context, breaking the rules in bad form, that is why its called sport, fair enough, but no such thing as dirty fighting in my book, when your life is on the line. If you can’t just walk away, then you take control and you end it. The longer the fight lasts, the greater the chance you’ll get hurt.

Well, my friend, I actually said “dirty tactics” which is all those biting, gouging, SJM etc. Those in my mind are emergency measures in an otherwise desperate “self defense” only situation and they don’t constitute a delivery system. They might be an “integral” part of Kung Fu but real Kung Fu doesn’t revolve around them. That is at least not in my book.

When my philiosophy is not to inflict permanent damage or other even more serious consequence during an altercation friendly or otherwise, I find it hard to encourage the use of dirty tactics. It is a personal choice. Kung Fu to me is not limited to self defense only although learning how to properly defend ourself is important and serious study. I do Kung Fu to make friends not to make enemies. I don’t think causing permanent damage is ever going to achieve that. In a friendly match, I don’t need people to fear that I might just snap and gouge their eyes out or bite off their ears (not saying I would be naive enough not to protect myself aganist those). To do so only tell others that I am merely an insecured child and would do anything to win which is just to keep my ego happy. :wink: That’s not Kung Fu (we have professional sports for that) :smiley:

The beginning of Kung Fu is to learn humility most of the time through humiliation. Humility (including learning about losing) leads to fluidity and fluidity rides rigidity. Whether it is Kung Fu (chin na in particular), Ju Jitsu, Judo, Aiki Jitsu, Aikido, etc, it’s all about fluidity rides the rigidity. Using dirty tactics only to win a fight is a guarantee lost even if you win any which way you look at it. Karma never misses, my friend. :cool:

Warm regards

Mantis108

37

I have to agree with the fence hopping Ross. From the bottom, the foul rules are moot. The ones I highlighted are definatly for those on top or standing. SJM are banned because they may break holds and fingers if you’re not carefull.

All the others I highlighted protect the guy on the bottom.

The problem with this perception of cma is two fold.

There are on one side the KnFitr style nuthuggers that want this to be 1998 forever and believe that people aren’t sick to death of watching the same old tactics over and over again. That make blanket statements over entire populations because of the perceptions of some(see in the second paragraph). With, in his case, giant napoleon complexes. That can’t see beyond their narrow stream of myopic vision past their paradigm of action.(that there is no variation to the steps in their fight A invariably is followed by B) That the UFC is the only measure of anything even though they themselves will never be on TV. And even in said UFC, things that they say are impossible then come to pass and it magically becomes acceptable. That measure even the very least player in CMA against the very top of thier venue even though there are as many crappy players under them as in all MA.

On the other side are the kung fu noobs that got caught up in the excuse game instead of just studying what is actually happening and what they can do to adjust, take down defense, approach control, hard contact striking, lengthening trigger zones, aiming :rolleyes:, preserving continuity of attack, getting out of the shooting gallery duck syndrome, etc, etc. To these people I say there is lots more in your CMA arsenal than eye pokes and hair pulling. What are you going to do if the guy is shaved or in KF’ers case, bald? To these people I say stop looking to the internet for answers. Look in your skill.

Bottom line, the reason CMA isn’t in MMA is mostly political. All other reasons are just abberations. There is no physical or tactical reason one in CMA couldn’t go into MMA if that is one’s desire. And that is the politics of it, People in CMA are being herded into other venues.

No matter how Ross tries to deny it, he is a CMA player making it work.

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[QUOTE=lkfmdc;717435]No offense, really, but the guess is wrong. There are lots of things to do when on the bottom, and in the spectrum, trying to bite or gouge is the WORST.. go back and look at “Mr San Soo” who tried to gouge and got his arm broken. That is what will happen 99% of the time actually

BINGO! We have a winner :D[/QUOTE]

You telling me you haven’t seen any situation where the guy on top has his head in range for a nice juicy headbutt?

So the eye gouge sevenstar mentioned was part of that 1%? According to your theory, the eyegouge sevenstar mentioned should never have worked right?

And what are your statistics on biting based on?

Anybody can come up with situations where a technique doesn’t work:rolleyes:
But it’s all in the execution. Really skilled fighters make the improbable work. So does chance and luck. And shockingly, so does hard training. Not all illegal techniques are impossible to train. Do some searches and you’ll see plenty of improbable or so-called low percentage techniques working quite well.

The point is, just because some techniques are not suitable for the ring doesn’t mean they are not effective. MMA will evolve according to rule sets, and those rule sets cut out a whole slew of techniques. Watch, more rules are coming. Some for safety, and some for entertainment value. It breaks my heart everytime a grappler works his butt off to get the other guy down only to have the ref arbitrarily stand them back up.

MMAists, the smart ones at least, will figure out every possible way to take advantage of those rules with respect to spacing, time limits, etc. And techniques that don’t fall in that catagory will simply fade out.

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[QUOTE=gabe;717451]You telling me you haven’t seen any situation where the guy on top has his head in range for a nice juicy headbutt?[/QUOTE]
Good luck trying to head butt someone who is on the top. Have you tried headbutting someone who has mount, side control, half-guard or, back control? Even with the guard, the top guy almost always has the advantage when headbutting is allowed.

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Mr. san soo got his becasue he was terrible.

BUT, mr. san soo isn’t the utimate measure of anything.