KenWingJitsu I propose that the real fighters on this forum have their own forum and let the pajama clan practice their forms in peace
dude you kill me , i was planning on ditching this forum but your right there a few guys out there putting in honest work for honest results .
don’t consider myself a real fighter though got friend that are and i know the difference. i just like to train in a progressive fashion that promotes results that translat into the real world.
but you have to remember each persons idea of a real fight is different .
i have said mine before i think of all the things that can go down in a maximum security prison , evil heartless types with bad intent , no were to go and no regaurd for human life , you might face multiple attackers , weapons ,ground , or just have to be fit enough to run and jump and climb.
this is the image in my mind that dictates how i percieve a street fight .
others might just think about that one drunk guy at the bar , so ther approach is dialed in to that so in there world they are right .
others are thinking about compition so they approach it that way and others just like to part of something bigger than themselves . and forms and chi sau is more than enough for them ,
there all right in there own way.
As for what to do in long range? Try “pressure at a distance”. Its simple it’s effective and for WC’ers it’s the best way to set up the opening blow called interception
how dare you bring up something as simple as live footwork and broken rythem
p.s.
had a great time with andrew s the other day , he’s got nice skills , we need to get together
Thanks for putting me on your list, but I really hate name labels, group names association, and titles, etc. It truly divides people as Joy puts it. Sharp, contradictory, and diverse opinions will always be with WCners to the end of time. We just have to learn to get along with each other. There is strength in numbers. I would love to see more and more people working out their differences and grow personally more in sharing and understanding with each other. This is more rewarding to me.
Originally posted by KenWingJitsu I propose that the real fighters on this forum have their own forum and let the pajama clan practice their forms in peace
I completely agree. So let’s keep the discussion of Wing Chun here, and fighting on the fighting forum, as yuanfen suggested.
Sparring without face gear is not macho. If you get hurt it will slow your training progress. Face gear allow you to fight with intensity repeatedly. You get better this way. Later on if you feel the need to spar without face gear you will at least have aquired some skill.
ETW wrote:
“I completely agree. So let’s keep the discussion of Wing Chun here, and fighting on the fighting forum, as yuanfen suggested”.
So you’re saying that WC and fighting are two separate intities?
I started this thread for WC people that wanted to discuss “fighting” with WC. There are other threads for those that don’t.
Hi Ernie, One way I use to close/enter is with a combination bong/wu. An example would be stepping forward using a left bong/right wu to the outside of an opponent’s right bridge. Lopping after you make contact. Of course it has to be set up with good timing. I have a few more but it’s late now.
Take care, btw I saw the Gary Lam mpeg. He looks really good.
hey phil
bong and wu to lop would take good timing to capture that sweet spot were the pressure is right , i work off a lot of semi pro boxers and the jab is to elusive so i tend to have to disect the line of attack rather then the point of attack if you know what i mean . but i’m a bit of a hybred i have a natural broken rythem and sense for closeing the gap but that’s just instinctual and doesn’t count if i can’t pass it on.
yeah gary is something else , i’m just starting to realize how talented he is and i have been under his teaching for the last four years .
if you want to check out any more stuff from him or anybody else i have a pretty vast collection of video and street fighting footage .
i’m big into r&d
hit me on a pm sometime .
peace.
I can see two thoughts on this topic. First is that we need to test what we do in order to know it works. This makes sense.
Another is if we spend time testing we might ingrain the incorrect habits. And in the process of this we could be loosing our skills, as we are ingraining new but less technically perfect WC motor skills.
Good points by Ernie on everyone having different ideas.
I can’t agree with a person who thinks we don’t need some real contact though. The Third form teaches us to recover our structure. From ‘what’ id like to propose? How about being hit in the face, and dealing with repeated attacks after that? That’s learning to regain your structure. That’s a situation that you need some contact (ok maybe not face hits, but body at least) to test what you’ve worked hard at cultivating.
Another perspective is many consider fighting to be the final stage of training. Get the tools, and then use them.
Not sure if tournaments are the best avenue, as people can train for winning the tournament and this is going to shift the focus on training; which could take away from WC training mythologies. Mythologies that make WC…WC. By that I mean WC’s core concepts of conservation of energy, being able to progress throughout the system well into old age etc. Not important to all, but important to some who are interested in WC because of these very reasons.
I don’t think Master Chu Shong Tin would have reached his current high level of skill if he concentrated on fitness all his life (to win a tournament). For many I think the attraction to WC is seeing the ‘light at the end of the tunnel’… these people have patience.
Bottom line IMHO, is we do need some real contact now-and-then. But what’s also needed is a balance of this with some real attention to detail as well. If we are at the extreme of either end of the spectrum, then we will be missing something.
phil wrote So you’re saying that WC and fighting are two separate intities?
hey phil
remeber there will always be those people that talk about swimming , become great with the weapons of swimming the flippers and the snorkel, practice the form of swimming , research the origins of swimming , consider themselves experts in swimming
but never once step foot in the water ?
or even worse practice swimming in the kiddy pool and think there kings of the ocean.
beware the mighty dry land swimmer and his side kick the arm chair martial artist
that’s why god made sharks;)
Originally posted by Phil Redmond I started this thread for WC people that wanted to discuss “fighting” with WC. There are other threads for those that don’t.
There are other forums for those that do. And seeing that you don’t have a clear concept of what Wing Chun is and is for, perhaps that it the best forum for you, since this forum is the Wing Chun forum.
then let us proceed
paul
what’s your conceptual take on dealing with the jab cross , from mis matched leads question
p.s. i bet my slt is more powerful then you slt , you stand way over there and i’ll stand way over here and i will use my superior knowledge of closed door slt to ‘‘form’’ you to death .
ha did you feel that the angle of my mighty tan sau is three degree’s closer to center i am the obvious winner
go back to your little village and sing the praises of my great wing chun theory
or i will use my bionic bong sau. isn’t that how your supposed to fight:mad:
I bow to your superior wisdom. You know all my moves before I can even move. I have no choice but to mirror your techniques. In this case, whatever you said before sounds sound enough for me. Ha! Ha!
ahhh sooo you do fear the mighty master of forms
o.k. enough of the shaw brothers dialogue
really paul give your concept on dealing with it .
for the sake of sharing
Being a visual oriented person, I don’t like writing on somethings that I can’t see. Nevertheless, what I do against a jab round punch combo is using my two weapons against his one. In this case a Tan Da with the emphasis of Tan guarding his straight jab while my punch attacks and guards also his possible line of round punch attack from his rear hand. As my punch was already deeply into his defending space, it would save me valuable time and distance to switch it to Lan da to meet his round punch. Again, two weapons against one with the attacking hand serving also as the defending hand. I need to see how Phil do it to know exactly what he is talking about though. Also, if he change his jab to sudden round punch my tan can switch also to Lan da. Either case, I’m protected from both possible lines of his attacks.
Interesting idea for a thread.
FMPOV you first need to reduce everything to 5 possible ranges and then further reduce to 3.
Outside of kicking range ( outside striking range still have shoot, rush, tackle to worry about)
long kicking range
long punch range
short range
body to body range
There are different ways of dividing ranges but however you do it you must take each range and analyze possible attacks or threats. Another step is to look at chi sau and work backwards . How do you apply what you learn in chi sao to the 5 possible ranges. Do the same with the dummy. What is the dummy telling you. The dummy speaks to the 5 ranges. For the longer ranges the weapons speak the loudest.
Also I do not look at if he jabs etc then I do this. if i am in a situation where i am looking at and thinking about what my opponent is doing i am losing or have already lost. Yu are behind him and your opponent is calling the shots. You are following his timing. Not a good thing.
Ernie- no Shaw bros dialog from me- I dont watch kung fu movies.
Without breast beating- I am no ignorant of jabs…they are dangerous things when the boxer is good…and useless if badly imitated.
But no two jabs are the same - even from the same person- if he is good. The key is timing.
Wing chun training if properly pursued- yes-including various forms of chi sao- develops a sharply honed timing. And good wing chun is NOT technique oriented- so the jab can be responded to ina variety of ways and wing chun movements—thus agood wing chun person detecting the slightest beginning of movement may attack and his structural training when attacking will protect him on the way in. If the jabber is showing off his jab froma harmless distance- not to get flustered- but remian alert- like a snake.
PaulH, the initial example was against a jab round punch with the same arm. I trained with boxers and kickboxers so I know that the jab can come in at different angles. (Some will say that WC is not technique oriented. But to me technique training is essential just like scales in music. Once you’ve mastered the scales you can improvise later on.) Boxers will sometime practice combinations over and over until they become reflexive. You have to start somewhere. Anyway, sometimes a jab is a setup for a hook/round punch. So I pak the jab and prepare for the round punch. If it doesn’t come I simple follow up to the body/face. If it does I “can” biu to the inside of the arm. I will try to step forward 45 degress and prepare to facea potential punch with the other arm. The example below is not what I was talking about at first because the attacker is using 2 hands. Also, they are not trying to hurt each other and the defender is not countering. So do not panic. This is only a drill. http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi
Click on the little icon near the bottom of the page.
Thanks for your clarification, Phil. I understand now what you say before. Sound footwork strategy against the round punch. What I do is using body turn/pivot to face his round punch instead of stepping, though in some case if his round punch is stronger than my base, it makes sense to diffuse the attack by stepping like you did.
