Do you all spar at your schools or just chi sao?
if so, is it full contact sparring or just point style soft sparring?
Full contact with protective gear, including takedowns and groundfighting.
Katsu Jin Ken,
We do sparring including strikes/kicks/takedowns usually using some combination of headgear, gloves, shin guards & chest protector. The sparring has several variations depending on your training focus and your level, including half speed, three quarter speed, combinations, anything goes, et cetera.
Andrew N.,
Would you mind sharing what type of protective gear that you find best? Specifically the type of gloves (if any) and head gear? Who makes them and how thickly padded are they? (for example, no gloves versus heavy bag gloves versus boxing gloves) Thanks in advance for your time…
Andy Kalish
Rochester, NY USA
IMHO the most important pieces of protective equipment are:
- mouthguard
- groin cup
For full contact including head shots you really need proper boxing gloves, 14/16 oz. A helmet works well too, but you need one with a good grille or faceplate - Ive seen the clear plastic ones break a few times. Hard to recommend a specific brand as I’ve yet to find a REALLY good one. We just use those and vinyl shin pads - ice hockey pads are really good but you both have to have them. Sparring without pads is good occasionally if you keep your shins reasonably well conditioned.
Elbow and knee pads as well for vale tudo. We use fingerless vale tudo gloves, but they really preclude full power shots to the head, so we only go semicontact. No one is so strong that they can afford regular concussion.
We use escrima-type gear for weapons sparring … though I personally prefer cricket helmets for head protection.
You still have to be prepared for a few bumps and bruises. I’ve had three KO’s, a busted eardrum, cracked ribs and innumerable black eyes and bruises. but no permanent damage or anything that required a visit to a hospital.
I train myself and my students almost exactly the way Andrew Nerlich describes what goes on in the school he attends:
Very thin gloves with about half of each finger exposed (made by a company called Century)…chest protector (By Pro Force)…a white-colored helmet/headgear (also by Pro Force)…we replaced the thick black plastic bar facemask that normally comes with the headgear with a hockey facemask that can be purchased separately at any good sporting goods store. (The hockey facemask has many vertical and horizontal metal bars that completely protect the face - but the bars are so thin that vision is not really impaired)…groin cup…shin and knee pads…sometimes elbow pads as well.
Fairly heavy contact punches and kicks (while wearing sneakers), takedowns…groundfighting/grappling…although this latter part is a bit difficult with all the equipment…so my Wednesay night class always includes at least one hour of heavy duty grappling (and some limiting striking)…on the mats with no protective gear except a groin cup.
We also spar lightly at times with no protective gear except a groin cup and a mouthpiece…usually preceding the heavier sparring with all the equipment.
And chi sao precedes all of this…
I don’t ever wear a groin cup and have learned to guard my groin the hard way. I have taken several hard hits over the last year in the groin. I guard it a lot better now and in a weird byproduct and I can take groin shots a lot better now as well.
The other day we sparred using gloves 14oz boxing gloves. Sifu had us use them for training reasons he said. He said if you can pull off striking with huge 14oz gloves then using 10oz will be even easier. I think he wants us to go compete in a san da (san shou) tournament soon to get some good fighting experience so we started sparring with gloves and such. Before that we just sparred bare knuckle at about 1/2 contact.
I say just mix it up and spar differently to gain different aspects. Full contact will teach you how to take hits, and deliever them as well. Slow sparring with teach you to execute technique and how to read the body when it moves. So, I say practice all aspects of sparring including take downs and ground fighting.
Ouch…
Gangsterfist,
While it certainly seems to have had some positive results for you in your training (awareness, “conditioning”), I have to put in my 2 cents regarding a groin cup.
First, I am not sure that you necessarily need to get hit in the unprotected groin in order to appreciate the need for its defense. Let me give you a non-MA example. As a pre-college youngster, I had a job working in a foundry where we were “required” to wear safety glasses. I typically left them in my pocket unless I was being watched. Then one day while walking in the yard behind the facility, the person walking in front of me pulled a tree branch forward to get past it. You guessed it, when he let it go it whipped back and the tip whacked me right square in the eye. By pure dumb luck I just happened to be wearing my safety glasses. I knew immediately that my eye would have suffered significant damage if I hadn’t been protected. I wore my glasses all the time after that. Even though it was over 20 years ago, I can still remember the event like it was yesterday. I didn’t have to actually get whacked to appreciate the potential results of not protecting a vital area.
Also, IMHO the risk that you are running is not worth it. Without conditioning that very few really know how to achieve, your testicles are just not made for that type of impact. And what is worse, testicles are not always very good at making a full recovery from injury (just talk to your friendly local urologist). It is a high price to pay especially if you want to have children someday.
This is not meant to counter or disagree with your opinion or training preferences, but rather is just the other side of the coin based on my experience…
Andy
why the facemask? In the local CMA continuous fighting tournies, you must wear a facemask. I hear that NASKA instituted this also. in thai boxing, kickboxing, boxing, etc., we only use the helmet - no facemask.
Jeez guys, what happens when the 75yr old man/woman joins the school to learn how to defend themselves? You expect them to be able or to even want to do that. Always remember, the mind is the most powerful weapon, as confuses says…Oh just to relate a story, so ironic I have to say, one of the students today in the afternoon class was telling me about a little playful sparring session he had with a friend of his that is a accomplished local boxer(apparently this friend’s whole family boxes). Anyways when the WC student got in his stance,( in this case similar to the TWC stance but both feet point 45deg to whatever the side is, left side stance or visa versa) and with his Wu sao’s extended the boxer friend proceeded tell the student how off balance he was. The student replied “oh yeah”. When the boxer attacked with a sharp angled lead right cross the student simply tan sao & str. punch, popped the boxer in the nose. On the next exchanged the WC student fainted the boxer with a slow finger jab towards the eyes, making slight contact(nothing to poke the eyes out), the boxer lost total orientation and tripped to the floor. Observing his reactions while he was telling me this story it seemed he was quite surprised himself as to how effective his techniques worked. This WC student probably only attends 4 to 6hrs a week of classes. No sparring, but he is a keen student, level 4 in our system. Apparently the boxer friend had trophy’s glore in his house. Just a story that’s all.
sihing
im taking Wing Chun 2 hours a week. Is this enough to learn efficiently i feel it is but just want your opinons. It is only offered 2 1hour classes a week. I have the option of taking Kenpo, and jujitsu on the other days of the week but ima college student and i just dont have time for all that between school and work you know.
Katsu Jin Ken,
Wow, between school and work I am surprised that you even have any hours available for MA. That is great. I would say that you could make progress at that pace but it will be a little slower than if you put in more time. Still very much worth it though IMO. You also may want to consider switching over for a semester of jujitsu as well to broaden your experience base. Switching back and forth shouldn’t be a detraction. Best of luck.
sihing,
You have differerentiated between sparring and self-defense training on a few occasions now. Could you give some examples that highlight the differences for us? Does your self-defense training involve exchanges that start from a very specific scenario (such as a throat grab, a punch combination, a push or a tackle) and end after that one scenario has been neutralized? Is the degree of force or intent less than 100%? Any further clarification would be appreciated.
To answer your question, I wouldn’t “expect” anything specific out of a 75 year old person. They are probably there for a reason. I would want to find out what that reason is and understand how that reason changes over time. Then I would try to accommodate that. FWIW, I train occasionally with a person currently in his 70s. Trust me he will put the gloves and helmet on with you…
I agree that the mind is a great weapon, but I feel that the mind/body connection has to be there via training in an environment that is as close as possible to the desired performance environment. The less extrapolation that your mind/body has to do the better you will perform.
Interesting story about the boxer. Not to imply any lack of skill on his part, but I am surprised that he didn’t have his guard hand near his face or have been ready to move/slip when throwing the cross. Maybe he underestimated the other guy. Can’t explain the falling either. Anyway, thanks for sharing.
Andy
Originally posted by sihing
Jeez guys, what happens when the 75yr old man/woman joins the school to learn how to defend themselves? You expect them to be able or to even want to do that. Always remember, the mind is the most powerful weapon, as confuses says
which doesn’t do much good if the body isn’t trained to do what it should…
That said, one of my judo coaches is 74. he can keep up. With someone older, you just tailor your training to them - of course you aren’t gonna have him sparring full contact…
…Oh just to relate a story, so ironic I have to say, one of the students today in the afternoon class was telling me about a little playful sparring session he had with a friend of his that is a accomplished local boxer
A WC black sash and instructor in the area entered a local continuous sparring competition. He got picked apart by a shotokan brown belt.
A WC black sash and instructor in the area entered a local continuous sparring competition. He got picked apart by a shotokan brown belt.
…
I could put on a white belt and beat the $hit out of somebody!..You get the idea?..
Mods trolling!..:rolleyes:
to akalish
to me sparring is a form of excercise persay, yes it is good for you to get used to someone coming at you full blast and things like that, and I would spar more if I was into the competition thing, I also think it is good excercise and builds up some good wind, problem is I believe that it gives one a false sence of security because people get good at sparring. Sparring is not necessary for one to develop fighting skills, IMHO. We work on perception drills in class and also random multiple attacking drills where one is surrounded by 4 to 6 people and is attacked by 1 to 3 techniques( intensity level is based on skill level)in a random manner. The student has to use the technique’s just trained on in the previous class. For our level 10 instructor’s test the student is attacked by 3 attackers, for self-defence(holds, grabs, rushes), combat tech(punches and kicks), weapons(knive, club), 75 reps for each one, while standing up, kneeling, sitting in the chair and the side while pushed to the ground(using the legs to defend) and then while being mounted on your back. It seems to work for those that have taken the test?? Plus my instructor, Master Brian Lewadny, has 40+ yrs of MA training and experience and he doesn’t believe in sparring as a effective training tool, so I tend to trust his opinion too regarding training methods.
We in our school don't not participate much in competition's but we have in the past, both times the students have won. No one can handle the chain punching I guess, lol.( that one is for you Seven Star).
You know sparring doesn't hurt your training, just that I don't believe its absolutely neccessary to develop quality self defence ability, IMHO.
sihing
[b][i]…Plus my instructor, Master Brian Lewadny, has 40+ yrs of MA training and experience and he doesn’t believe in sparring as a effective training tool, so I tend to trust his opinion too regarding training methods…
[/b][/i]
Sihing-
Please tell me why sparring is not a good training tool? How else can you get that close to a real fight and test your skills? How else do you advocate combat training?
I read through your post about your training drills, but those are also controlled enviroments. They are “drills” and I do not see how they are more effective than sparring. There are many different levels of sparring from slow controlled movements all the way up to full contact.
Its IMHO, that doing drills over and over again build up a false sense of security with your kung fu. You can get caught up in patterns and rythms with drills. That is the purpose to build the muscle memory. However, applying it as a drill and applying it in a real fight are 2 very different things. Sparring is progressive and you will never have the same match twice. It will be different every time and the more people you spar the better you can test and work out your attributes.
Doing drills over and over again with only wing chun practitioners really only makes you good at doing drills with other wing chunners, not a good fighter. To really work out your skills and attributes and then in harness them and refine them to make yourself effective. Everyone’s skills and attributes are different so results will vary.
Martial arts has very little to do with Self Defense. If you have any confusion about that, I refer you again to:
You wake up in the middle of the night to find a man with a gun to your child’s head telling your wife to tie you up
You order at McDonalds only to find bullets from a mini-gun begin to spray down the menu above the counter
You exit 7/11 to find a bunch of kids in baggy pants smoking up while leaning against your car
You’re driving down the road and someone jumps into your car in the backseat you foolishly forgot to lock, pulls out a weapon and orders you to drive to a secluded location…
That’s all real self defense, and WCK or any MA won’t help very much.
WCK is a system for fighting mostly focused towards 1-on-1 duels. It has some limited cross-over into other fighting situations, but should never be confused with Self Defense.
Once that’s understood, the ‘debate’ about sparring vanishes.
And Sihing, there are people out there with just as much if not more experience in WCK than your sifu, and they have a variety of differing opinions. Thus, arguments by authority have almost no usefulness.
“…Plus my instructor, Master Brian Lewadny, has 40+ yrs of MA training and experience and he doesn’t believe in sparring as a effective training tool, so I tend to trust his opinion too regarding training methods…”
And this is someone who we were supposed to believe is part of an elite group of 2…(Lewadny and Bruce Lee).
Yeah…right!!! LOL
James Roller:
Let me let you and Brian Lewadny in on a little secret:
No sparring = No REAL fighting ability.
Originally posted by reneritchie:
"Martial arts has very little to do with Self Defense. If you have any confusion about that, I refer you again to:
You wake up in the middle of the night to find a man with a gun to your child’s head telling your wife to tie you up
You order at McDonalds only to find bullets from a mini-gun begin to spray down the menu above the counter
You exit 7/11 to find a bunch of kids in baggy pants smoking up while leaning against your car
You’re driving down the road and someone jumps into your car in the backseat you foolishly forgot to lock, pulls out a weapon and orders you to drive to a secluded location…
That’s all real self defense, and WCK or any MA won’t help very much.
WCK is a system for fighting mostly focused towards 1-on-1 duels. It has some limited cross-over into other fighting situations, but should never be confused with Self Defense.
Once that’s understood, the ‘debate’ about sparring vanishes…
And Sihing, there are people out there with just as much if not more experience in WCK than your sifu, and they have a variety of differing opinions. Thus, arguments by authority have almost no usefulness."
Rene:
While your advice to James Roller (sihing) about his sifu’s experience (or lack of it) was right on the money…your preceding thoughts and conclusions (quoted above) are close to reality…but not quite there (IMO).
Specifically:
“Martial arts has very little to do with Self Defense…WCK…has some limited crossover into other fighting situations (besides 1 on 1 duels)…but should never be confused with self defense.”
Martial arts is supposed to have EVERYTHING to do with Self Defense…and most (if not all) martial arts were designed to be real-fight self defense arts…ORIGINALLY. (Including Wing Chun).
The problem for most modern martial arts and the self defense situations you describe so well in the above post is the:
-
McDojo commercial ($) approach to teaching, and…
-
The unwillingness of many (if not most) schools to take a crosstrainiing approach…
Both of these things lend themselves to very LIMITED real-life fighting situations being covered in the curriculum.
It’s not the martial arts per se that have let us down in real-life self defense situations…it’s us who have let down the “spirit” of the arts we’ve learned - in self defense situations.
Gangsterfist, firstly I think maybe our definitions of sparring might differ. I think of sparring as two people getting together, putting on the gloves and going at it. Is this correct? We do practice a form of sparring as I mentioned earlier, but we do rarely practice what is described above. Only when the student wants to go in a competition or something like that, and if they want to do that type of training on their own. If I walked in on them practicing a sparring session like the above, would I stop them, nope. Have fun I would tell them, then give them some pointers.
Rene, all of the situations you mentioned, I believe that one trained in any MA would be in better shape than those that haven't. Just for the confidence and ability to control our emotions and stay cool under pressure puts us in a better position to handle situations you mentioned. Plus WC is awesome for multiple opponents, I don't know where you got this 1 on 1 stuff. Since starting my training in WC I have been open minded enough to search for other's opinion, not that my Sifu's wasn't good enough for me, it was just a couriousity thing. There are experts in every field that have differing opinions, and that's great. I just happen to agree with what was taught to me by Sifu and more power to the ones that don't agree with it.
Victor, do you think you can take your Instructor GM Cheung? Do you think he is sparring at all at age 63. Probably not, at least he wasn't when I met him(and he was only 53 back then). So tell me , what's the difference between you and him. Probably skill level, and his understanding of the system that makes most of the difference. Random attacks are a common thing in the school I belong too, gettin the jocks on and mouth guards isn't.
sihing
“Victor, do you think you can take your Instructor GM Cheung? Do you think he is sparring at all at age 63. Probably not, at least he wasn’t when I met him(and he was only 53 back then). So tell me , what’s the difference between you and him. Probably skill level, and his understanding of the system that makes most of the difference. Random attacks are a common thing in the school I belong too, gettin the jocks on and mouth guards isn’t.”
James Roller:
This paragraph is so confused and confusing that I wouldn’t even know where to begin trying to answer it point-for-point.
But I will say this much: I personally spar (heavy contact - using protective gear) with my advanced students EVERY Saturday. Along with some heavy-duty competitive wrestling (with some striking thrown in) EVERY Wednesday.
I teach three days per week; and classes also include chi sao, light sparring (without protective gear), weapons, unarmed self defense against weapons, and random self defense situations - along with forms, punching, kicking, footwork, wooden dummy, conditioning, etc.
I won’t answer your comments/questions about William Cheung - not only because they’re pretty unintelligible and confusing, for the most part, - but they’re also inappropriate.
You already managed to have one thread deleted - are you shooting for that with this one too?