I would like to start a thread that sticks soley to fighting strategy, training methods, or anything else that would make us ALL better at what WC was made for. I personally hope this doesn’t degenerate to a my sifu is better than yours, or so and so learned/didn’t learn from so and sos uncle’s mama’s grandad thread, cause frankly I don’t care. Let the historians keep up the good work on keeping us informed on another thread. Let’s talk about fighting here. I also can learn from this regardless of lineage. I only used TWC in the title to get your attention. See it worked.
phil,
how do you want to approach it from pre contact ‘’ preliminary analysis of the fighter or situation’’
this would lead to entry ‘’ this will open a can of worms like footwork , angles ,fakes , stop hits , pain infliction and so on’’
or from the contact stage through termination stage.
been hearing really good things about you from some of your people by the way.
ernie
As ETW pointed out- fighting and art can be two different things.
There is much more to wing chun than fighting- but progressive growth in learning wing chun does not diminish the development of the ability to fight.
So fighting strategy and developmental strategy can be inter-related- one reinforcing the other.
Phil- since you are starting this thread— what are some of your views on fighting strategy? You dint give any!
An important element in developing one’s own wing chun— -it seems to me is to be able to “read” the opponents structure. Since the opponents structures can vary-
imo its a mistake to have a single entry “technique”.
Not being trapped by the other fellas game is something that wing chun and good wing chun footwork provides.
Let me give a wing chun overlay on a boxing problem. Some may recall the Corrales- Mayweather fight- where Mayweather destroyed Corrales. Corrales is no slouch and he has long and short power in both hands. But when Mayweather shifted from side to side(my structural analysis)- Corrales just followed him…an example of the danger that wing chun teaches. In good boxing- they have cutting off the ring- Corrales wasnt doing that.But wing chun atleast my kind is ambidextrous and ambipedal(!) and can cut off on either side! It shouldnt matter whether Mayweather shifts rightward or leftward- with wing chun footwork- you move first-I arrive earlier!! Si se puede!
Phil,
With all due respect if you’re talking about fighting aspects with different people of different approaches from yours, the most agreeable way is to get together working out and exchanging ideas. An Irish friend of mine got this advice from his mom when he was contemplating marriage: “Michael, love is blind, but marriage is an eye opener!” If real fighting is what people want, then talk won’t do. The most encouraging thing so far is I see different people are getting together and are really improving their skills from such mutual respect and learning.
Regards,
art is based on personal perception [ like i thing that painting is great and you think that it sucks ]
but skill can be measured and tested and proven .
a person can practice all the elements of wing chun , do beautiful forms and dummy and great chi sau and still suck . if he has never gone out and applied tested and refined his skill.
like perfect penmenship but no story to right about .
as for the boxing example you were right about the wing chun foot work i have applied that often in the ring with good results but there are more line of attck then left and right , angle and elevation changes are a little trickier to adapt to.
but you did also comment on reading a persons offered structure which is dead on and links back to phil’s thread ,
and helps with choice of entry but you need to stand infront of many types of people to be able to get this read and eye senstivity .
YOU’RE THE PERFECT GUY FOR THIS !
Okay Phil - since you started this thread and since I agree with PaulH about realism - I nominate you to organize an all-wing chun tournament, since comparing wing chun IN PERSON and in a friendly but still competitive atmosphere could help clear up a lot of conceptions about what wing chun strategies work, don’t work, etc..
Some suggestions:
-
Very thin UFC-like gloves with half the fingers exposed. I use them all the time (Century brand is excellent)..can still do lop, pak, huen, cheun, etc. without much problem.
-
Headgear customized with a hockey face-cage; this means many vertical and horizontal metals bars that completely protect the face yet are thin enough not to impede vision much. We use them at my school- they work well.
-
chest protector
-
groin cup
-
shin and knees pads
-
Lightweight (agreed upon) shoes/sneakers
-
Nothing allowed to the groin..but can hit or kick anywhere there is armor worn…the exception being that kicks or knee shots to any part of the legs (armor covered or not) are allowed.
-
elbow shots allowed to the chest protector area only (trust me - you wouldn’t want to elbow the metal bars anyway).
-
Grabbing & Takedowns allowed…and points awarded for takedowns
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NO CHI SAO or any other non-fighting apsects of wing chun will be part of the tournament…(ie.- no forms competition, no weapons, no demonstrations…these things are nice - but there are plenty of other tournament venues for them. This all wing chun tournament is strictly about fighting.
Who wants to second my nomination - since Phil Redmond is well liked…even if he is a TWC guy!!! LOL
Reply to Victor in brackets-
((Sorry no seconding here- see below-why. You apparently are talking tournament rules- not really fighting))))
- Very thin UFC-like gloves with half the fingers exposed.
((Nah.Can damage finger joints. Rather wear no gloves))
- Headgear customized with a hockey face-cage;
((Nah- false sense of security- ok for amateur boxing))
- chest protector
((Wc aint tkd))
- groin cup
(Nah- doesnt protect against grabs etc))
-
shin and knees pads
-
Lightweight (agreed upon) shoes/sneakers
((Ok- details depends on nature of surface))
The rest are really sports games rules-- is this what Phil’s thread is about–if it is cheerio))
-
Nothing allowed to the groin..but can hit or kick anywhere there is armor worn…the exception being that kicks or knee shots to any part of the legs (armor covered or not) are allowed.
-
elbow shots allowed to the chest protector area only (trust me - you wouldn’t want to elbow the metal bars anyway).
-
Grabbing & Takedowns allowed…and points awarded for takedowns
-
NO CHI SAO or any other non-fighting apsects of wing chun will be part of the tournament…(ie.- no forms competition, no weapons, no demonstrations…these things are nice - but there are plenty of other tournament venues for them. This all wing chun tournament is strictly about fighting.
Who wants to second my nomination - since Phil Redmond is well liked…even if he is a TWC guy!!! LOL
Originally posted by yuanfen
Let me give a wing chun overlay on a boxing problem. Some may recall the Corrales- Mayweather fight- where Mayweather destroyed Corrales. Corrales is no slouch and he has long and short power in both hands. But when Mayweather shifted from side to side(my structural analysis)- Corrales just followed him…an example of the danger that wing chun teaches. In good boxing- they have cutting off the ring- Corrales wasnt doing that.But wing chun atleast my kind is ambidextrous and ambipedal(!) and can cut off on either side! It shouldnt matter whether Mayweather shifts rightward or leftward- with wing chun footwork- you move first-I arrive earlier!! Si se puede!
yuanfen - I do indeed recall that fight, and was one of Mayweather’s most impressive matches. Corrales simply stalked the whole time, and like you said, Mayweather kept great lateral movement and would pot shot, then be outta there before Corrales could do anything. However, I would argue that had Corrales let his hands go (he admitted that he would lose the first 3 rounds - BEFORE the fight!?!), he may have had a better chance and a less disasterous outcome.
Hmm how does this relate to WC?! Uhhhh, maybe … don’t defeat yourself before you’ve started the fight?! Or if you’re going to fight, fight!
That is interesting, Joy. My fingers got hurt often if I don’t wear the kind of gloves mentioned above. That extra glove cushion is designed to reduce heavy stress and strains on those finger joints. They work rather well for me.
I don’t think people are getting together for real happy slugfests. They are there to learn new stuffs, to meet new friends, and to get feedbacks of their training that they normally don’t get from their kwoons. So I imagine Victor’s stuffs would not be too helpful at this point. The excitement and experience gained from such meetings are more or less the most appealing aspects.
Regards,
I was able to find out alot about my friend’s TaiJi and Shuai Chiao on a friendlier basis - through discussion, hands-only sparring, all-out sparring with 16 ounce gloves, push hands, drills that we shared. Competition, on the other hand, may not tell you so much about another’s style - although it’s great for finding out about your own.
Originally posted by yuanfen
Reply to Victor in brackets-
((Sorry no seconding here- see below-why. You apparently are talking tournament rules- not really fighting))))
Yuanfen is correct. These rules wouldn’t prove anything. Chi Sao is not fighting, but it is easy to show superiority over individuals in hands-on meetings. A sufficient student of Wing Chun doesn’t have to hurt you to show control over you. Conversely, if you cannot demonstrate control of them, then your Wing Chun is nothing exceptional.
[B]
- NO CHI SAO or any other non-fighting apsects of wing chun will be part of the tournament…(ie.- no forms competition, no weapons, no demonstrations…these things are nice - but there are plenty of other tournament venues for them. This all wing chun tournament is strictly about fighting.
[/B]
No Chi Sao rule shows a misunderstanding of what is Wing Chun. Wing Chun is not fighting, but if I fight, I will use my Wing Chun skills including especially Chi Sao.
[B]
Who wants to second my nomination - since Phil Redmond is well liked…even if he is a TWC guy!!! LOL [/B]
I have too much respect for Phil Redmond to mix him up in this farcical notion. 
PaulH. I travel to other TWC as often as I can. When I travel I try to meet wiht other WC people in the area. I recently met with Mustafa when I was in NYC in May. I tried to get meet with Sihing73 but our schedules didn’t allow it. Sifu Keith Mazza, TWCKF@aol.com, of Mt. Laurel, NJ is hosting an open metting of MA from any style to train with each other and share. I plan on being there. Sifu John Cresione is have something in Oregon, (I think it’s in July). Time permitting I’m going there also. I will be doing a seminar in Milwaukee at Sifu Charles Boness’ school. I hope to meet with guy from that area, especially Chicago as I have a student there.
Victor, Great idea. Remember in the old days of the Karate invitational tournaments. The downside in a closed tournament is you’re only competing within your style. the upside is that the closed tournament can show you what you ned to work on in order to compete in “open” events.
Yuanfen, you said, “There is much more to wing chun than fighting. . . . .”. Right on, but this thread is only supposed to deal with the “vulgar” aspect of fighting/sparring, or whatever you need to get as close to the real thing as you can. ?Tu hablas Espa~nol? No me digas, yo tambien.
I’m going to give some “possible” combat situations. We all know that there will be “X” factors. I’m just giving a possible solution to a “possible” situation. Also, I don’t want anyone to think I’m promoting TWC over any other WC. I fought well with things I got from non-TWC.
Ok, how about a defense against a very fast jab round punch. (Notice I didn’t say hook). You are in a right front stance, he is in a left front stance. So you are parallel leg/arm to each other. He throws a fast jab and wide “hooks”. You pak his elbow then immediate;y step 45 degrees forward and biu sau/strike before the round punch connects. Talk to me.
“I will be doing a seminar in Milwaukee at Sifu Charles Boness’ school. I hope to meet with guy from that area, especially Chicago as I have a student there.”
Hi - my sifu knows Sifu Boness pretty well. Also you may be interested to know that Sifu Milan, one of GM Chueng’s top students from Brazil, has set up shop here in Chi-town at a local 7* Mantis school. I’ve met him and have some sparring footage between him and a Mantis instructor. Let us know about your seminar details - though I don’t know if I can make it, very busy and Milwaukee’s 2 hours away…
hey shoot me an e-mail with the info - fajingk@yahoo.com
hay bastante gente aqui que habla espanol! Pues, es mas facil que hablar Chino…Mucha suerte para todos 
phil sounds like you mean mis matched leads
the jab depending on the set up distance and rythem or broken rythem of the person will give there interception possibilities
1] at the start of the action you read his intent and id you speed and foot work are good and distance permits you blow him out with pak da .‘’ and i wouldn’t zone in this situation just use my momentum plus the shocl of the pak to go striaght throw him no need to moniter the second hand.
2] the jab has started so you intercept it in the middle of the action cathin the elbow might work here as long as the momentum and energy is still directed into the center of his mass and stalls his movement . i might still use pak da but his hieght and reach become a factor here if he is to tall i migh take the ribs then follow up to the head . the second hand’’ hook’’ only becomes a factor if i don’t shock him with the first . if i screwup my extended punching hand is still therre as a safty factor covering the hook line .
also once he is moving towards you intercepting the lead leg with a kick is by far the easiest thing to do and this will freeze him so you can drop heavier shots .
3] the jab is retacting in this case i will follow the jab back in while taking a slight angle and monitering the hook line . but i would try to work of the smothered jab line and avoid the second power hand he is throwing by being on the 45 and shutting down his left shoulder were the power is originating . but at this range i would rather go body to body and go for the take down.
just a few 2 dimensional ideas.
Phil,
Anyone who fought against the Viet Cong is okay in my book. I love to meet you one of these days if you’re around Los Angeles just to say hello and to pay my respects. Perhaps you can show me a few tips on GI Joe’s knife fighting! It’s great that you also get around meeting so many different WC and other MA people.
Regards,
another little concept i will toss your way in dealing with the ''fast jab or strong rear hand ‘’
is simply the idea of useing a destruction . in stead of intercepting the man you intercept the fist with some type of bone on bone barrier
like the point of the elbow , or just sock his hand .
this deviates from wing chun as it is chasing hands but i have stopped a few heavy handed people with this .
but it does require a deeper understanding of range , how to bait , and timing .
so it devieates from the somplicity of wing chun.
but for the sake of sharing i’ll put it out there.
Why am I not surprised that there is so little interest in the kind of sparring tournament that I suggested?
Why am I not surprised that some objections raised are really a smokescreen? (“I’d rather do chi sao”…“gloves will hurt my hands”…and my favorite one - “equipment such as headgear and chest protectors give a false sense of security…”
When was the last time you wore headgear and a chest protector - followed by being on the receiving end of a hard punch to the head with a thin glove and a hard kick to the body by someone wearing shoes/sneakers ? There’s no false sense of security about that - because it hurts !
I guess it’s more fun to talk, compare and debate history, lineage, and fighting strategy then to actually find out what works and what doesn’t in a relatively safe but competitive environment…
Oh well…it was a thought.
Ultimatewingchun
i fully believe in sparring and training with protective gear , as long as there is a purpose , working on my entry’s foot work ,pressure , basic skill refinement but the idea of sparring with another wing chun guy to me is a waste of time . i could care less how i fare against another wing chun person , you allready got an idea how this person will fight you and that defeats the purpose of sparring , you need to be instanly adaptable , that’s why you should work of other arts , that are trying to prove there point. and might toss inthe unkown element you will have to adjust to.
sparring with wing chun people is as silly as having a chi sau compition .
it doesn’t represent a real fight in any way. as far as having to develop the skills to flow through different enviroments and emotions .
it’s like two boxers have a jab drill contest , nothng gets refined .
if you only work of your own kind you become to crispy and conditioned to wing chun style attacks and reactions this with throw you off in a real confrontation were he wont come at you in a wing chun way .
the main point is to be able to change and flow as the situation is changing ,
not a predetermined style of fighting .
I propose that the real fighters on this forum have their own forum and let the pajama clan practice their forms in peace 
Ultimatewigchun is correct.
It is obvious this is the kind of topic that should be discussed, not the angle of one’s pinky toe in SLT…but hey what can I say. Thankfully, there are people like Victor and Phil and Paul H and Rene Ritchie, and Anerlich, and AndrewS and Ernie, and…well the list goes on. People who know the deal. At least that means there’s light at the end of the proverbial WC tunnel.
As for what to do in long range? Try “pressure at a distance”. Its simple it’s effective and for WC’ers it’s the best way to set up the opening blow called interception.
KWJ sez:Senior Member
I propose that the real fighters on this forum have their own forum and let the pajama clan practice their forms in peace.
Ignoring the allusion/illusion of a pajama clan category. KWJ apparently has his formula for “real fighters”. Actually there is a forum for “fighting” already established on kfo.