i would like to know the opinion of all choy lee fut (all 3 families) stand point on this. or from other styles as well.
what are the pro’s and con’s of your sifu teaching a set that he created, passed it on as a set of your branch, as opposed to a traditional set created 150 years ago? are there any pro’s or cons?
would that set created by your sifu still be a set directly related to your branch? if not, why?
my first point of view: it your sifu has never learned another style, or included another styles techniques, then as long as he stays within the confines of your system, then that could be a legitimate set. if all your sifu knows is choy lee fut, then the created set would no doubt be a choy lee fut set. no outside influence!
fran
"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head
[This message was edited by yik-wah-tik on 09-27-01 at 07:41 AM.
[This message was edited by yik-wah-tik on 09-27-01 at 07:42 AM.]
Personally I would never come up with my own forms but I don’t see it as a big problem with people who do as long as they don’t pass it off as some long lost form of their system. If a set adds a set or two thats okay but too many sets would be a problem.
If it comes to weapons sets I don’t think the sifu has to have only trained in CLF to “keep it real” so to speak. After all weapons are basically weapons, there are only so many ways you can block and strike and generally all southern styles weapons are basically similar.
Hand forms on the other hand are a different matter. As long as the sifu uses the techniques and power that their style is known for ie. CLF or Hung Gar, I don’t see adding a form as a problem. After all do you really think the people alive during the ear of Chan Heung and Jeung Hung Sing were any smarter than people today. I mean it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to put various combinations together and have them be combat effective or generally pleasing to the eye.
Personally I feel CLF has enough forms as it is and I don’t think adding any additional forms is necessary. Occationally coming up with a two man form for demonstration purposes is OK.
but let’s say that somewhere in my hung sing family, we didn’t have a traditional buddha palm set, but we studied and researched the characteristics of the buddha palm, and invented a set? of course we would not claim it was a long lost set, but because my roots are strictly choy lee fut and thats all i know, then that set would be a choy lee fut set, right?
i mean, chan heung and jeong yim both created sets, lee koon hung created siu mui fah and a few others, and has also created an earmark for his style of hung sing choy lee fut.
i await responces.
fran
“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”
To my knowledge Lee Koon Hung did not create Siu Mui Fa, a lot of people in CLF have a version of it. I think he may have changed some things from the way he may have originally learned it but to my knowledge he didn’t create it.
You have to remember that Lee Koon Hung’s CLF comes from both the Jeung Hung Sing side and Chan Heung side. So we may have forms that your Hung Sing doesn’t. It all depends on who your sifu or sifus followed all the way through your respective lineage. My sifu, Lee Koon Hung followed a few different CLF sifus.
As far as making your own CLF Buddha Palm Form, how can you possibly research a real buddha palm style in this day and age, since there really are no more traditional shaolin monks left, just the Wushu people who front at China’s version of Kung Fu Disney World. If you want this form why not find another CLF sifu and learn the form. After all you practice CLF so after learning and mastering it you could incorporate it into your system.
I think,(as CLFnole said) the founders of a system were not necisarily(i cant spell ) any smarter then todays sifu’s. if a sifu feels he needs/wants to add a form to his school/style then i do not see why he should not be able too.
Also you said:
“it your sifu has never learned another style, or included another styles techniques, then as long as he stays within the confines of your system, then that could be a legitimate set.”
This is also a good question, at first thought i would say that the founders did not study that style, but a combination of styles to form that one style, so perhaps if the sifu “kept it real” with the influnces the founders had as well as the current style, it could still be a legitamet form. for example(please forgive my lack of CLF knowledge) CLF is a combination style, so if the sifu studied the other styles that it is based on then maybe it could still be a legitamte CLF form.
(did that make anysense, cause im thinking it didnt )
I dunno, jsut random thoughts, but i am personally fine with todays masters creating forms, i mean they are the masters, and what if no masters back in the day did?
peace,
wally
“Everyone seems so clever and self-assured.
I alone appear unlearned and original,
insistent upon a different direction than other people pursue.” -Lao Tzu
thank you both for your responces. and i agree with the both of you as well. but we do have a buddha palm form, and i also have the lee koon hung version on tape. for the conversations sake, if i researched what each clf school had as a buddga palm form, and created my own based on the principals of what i saw, then i would be creating a new set, but with my own special flavor. would you condsider that a legitimate set?
i mean, your sifu can be the next pioneer of choy lee fut by creating new sets, and by passing it down to the next generations, will make it a standard within your system.
i think we all can be pioneers as long as we stay within the confines of our system. hung ga, wing chun,etc has their own way of doing things, so does choy lee fut. and the thing i like about all 3 branches of choy lee fut is that there are 3 different versions of choy lee fut…full of flavor. you may like the way we execute certain techniques, and as well visa versa.
fran
“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”
I do agree it could be considered a legitimate set. However I think it really depends on the calibur of the person creating the set. I have never seen your CLF so I can’t make any statements of whether or not you would be qualified to create your own form but have indicated that you have studied CLF for a long time, so one would think you are qualified enough. If you have your own school and the support of your sifu, why not. Go for it!
As far as being a pioneer in CLF, I would not agree. Since there are many versions existing of Buddha Palm within CLF you would likely be regurgitating sections from the different forms and thus not coming up with something new, which to me would mean being a pioneer. Coming up with a new CLF form with different principles (not techniques) would be pioneering.
I think I could take sections from the 14 hand forms I know and make a form, but would it make sense? Would it have purpose? Or would it be just a compilation of various sections? These things should be well thought out before trying to create a new form.
Then there is a whole other agruement about whether or not one has mastered what they already know and why would they want to make something new when what they know is incomplete? Just something to think about.
i didn’t mean buddha palm per say, i mean, okay for one, lets say you like the panther fist and your system has only one set on this. you may create a few more sets based on what you have in the first panther fist set. but this can go for anything though.
secondly, i have heard there is a branch of clf that strictly uses short hand techniques. since my school doesn’t focus STRICTLY on short hand techniques, we may want to create a form utilizing the short hands, and blocks. in my opinion this would be enhancing your clf.
i agree on the caliber part of clfnole’s statement. you have to be at a certain level before you can do something this major. but, i don’t see anything wrong with taking the best techniques from your most favorite sets and creating one of your own. actually, i am in the process of doing this as we speak, and i sortof came up with a name for it…“tien ying hung kuen” (heaven’s hero fist). but i am not sure i will pass it on to anyone, just perfect it myself. and who knows, maybe later.
frank
“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”
One thing I’ve noticed about our CLF sets is that they are packed with information. There are a few repetitive movements that you see in all the sets. But most of the sets have unique footwork hand combinations.
I think it would be hard to think of a new combination of movements that hasn’t been done before. There are only so many EFFECTIVE ways to do Gwa, Sao, Chap, Biu, etc. As CLFnole alluded to, you would have to incorporate new movements other than the basic 10. Again, hard to do.
I joked in another thread that I was going to make a Choy Lay Fut mantis set. That would be cool. I know there is a CLF monkey set. This set must borrow from other styles, but uses some of the CLF core principles.
BTW, CLFNole, who were Lee Koon Hung’s other teachers besides Poon Sing? I think he had 3 main teachers, but can’t remember the name of the other two.
I really don’t want to get into the whole story because its a bit of a sensitive topic throughout our lineage. Lee Koon Hung’s main CLF teachers were Leung Sai, Chow Bing & So Gam Fook.
He began with Sifu Poon Dik, who passed away when Lee Koon Hung was young. He followed Poon Sing, Poon Dik’s son, for a short time moved onto two of Sifu Poon Dik’s senior students Leung Sai and Chow Bing. Later when he was older he studied with Poon Dik’s Si Di So Gam Fook.
After all of those he studied with Shek Kin, who passed some nothern style onto him.
creating a set with different approaches, and specific ideas in mind is not hard to do. it is all up to the developer of set to set the mood, and energy of the set.
in choy lee fut you don’t see too many left handed fu-jow’s. so adding some left handed fu-jow’s would be adding something within choy lee fut that was not normally there.
certain combinations put together in certain fashions are a good way to enhance your system. i never meant that i putting together a set to add to your system would hvave to be a supreme set.
i have seen sets techniques in the fut san hung sing choy lee fut that i have never seen any other choy lee fut school do. but if i added them into a set, and put a name to it, it is still a set. there is nothing too hard about putting together a set. as long as you follow basic patterns and principals set in your specific system.
yes there is so many ways to throw a cup choy/sau choy/ etc etc, but it is how you approach it and execute it that matters. creating a set strictly for fighting is much different than the sets most practiced today. because we wouldn’t move in the same way in a fight as we would in our sets.
i am not saying no one here has never been in street fights, knock em out brawls, but i have and i have experienced that really the way the sets are done are in no way relative in how we really fight. i am sure most of you will know what i mean. certain aspects of choy lee fut regardless of what family just doesn’t work unless you modify it. and therefore creating a set in regards to those aspects would definetly advance choy lee fut to new levels.
fran
“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”
in my opinion, a pioneer (defintely, someone who has put more than 20 years +) is someone who makes a useful contribution to the enhancement of clf.
one such pioneer is prof. lau bun-my great grand master. when he came to the u.s. he changed his clf to adapt to his new surroundings. since his arrival to the states in the early 20’s, it was a life and death struggle to survive in a new place where it was dangerous to be chinese.
prof. lau bun was a well known and respected fighter. he created new approaches in the usage in his clf due to the dangerous circumstances surrounding him. he also added sets as well which highlighted his new point of view. from his point of view it was kill or be killed, and he passed that mentality on to his students.
there is an analogy we use to his point of view as well…“you would never pull a gun on anyone unless you planned on killing him” that was applied to Prof. lau bun’s philosophy, “never show your gung fu unless you plan to kill him.”
with his innovations, he definetly was a clf pioneer. so was tam sam, kwan mun keng, lee koon hung,kong hing and so on. if it was accepted that these sifu’s made innovative contributions, then there should be no problem for a worthy sifu follow in their footsteps, and not be ridiculed for it. as long as it is practical, does not look like another style or wu shu-flying all over the place- and yet most importantly-effective!it is all for the advancement of clf anyway right?
i can see myself ridiculed if i created a set and called it “long dong chi gong” and claimed it can enhance your sexual life. i would be ran out of town.hahahahahahahahahahaha!
see what i mean?
frank
“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”
i have our traditional stick sets, but my sifu wanted to create a stick set strictly for me, and i have used the last 3 characters of our couplets to name this set…“loong bai mei” -dragon slashes it’s tail!
the set looks good, and is strong. and most of all i like this set. hehe!
i don’t know why i mentioned that…but hey, i did!
frank
“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”
Oh, but you obviously don’t have access to all the forms of CLF then. There’s no way one person could memorise and perfect all the forms of CLF, so specialisation is required depending on your abilities, body type, preferences, etc. But if your system is lacking most of the forms and you feel the need to make up sets to complete your training, then the problem runs deeper.
I don’t do CLF but I think this question applies to any style. As long as the inventor is qualified to do so, and the resulting set adheres to the principles of the art, then I see no problem with it. MAs have to evolve and grow otherwise they die.
All forms were made up by somone sometime. To get your black sash from my sifu its required to make up a personal set. You usually have input/help from him and his peirs. There’s usually a certain format that needs to be followed to stay within the confines of the style such as so many of certain stances and specific techniques caracteristic to the style.
