Just a question

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
1

In regards to making up sets I was wondering what POV’s are out there on traditional sets passed down within the system, as opposed to sets that someone created in modern times.

What would be the differences between a traditional set and a modern one if each one contained authentic and verifiable techniques?

Does a traditional set mean in any way it is better than anything that can be created afterwards? If all the elements were present, and whomever created admits that it was his own creation, would it be any less valid?

If Choy Lee Fut only had one staff form and that was the general one for all CLF, but each school developed their own off of the original, would they be any less valid?

another example, if a school only had the butterfly knives but based off of that they created a double hatchet set, would that hatchet set be any less valid?

See, as a martial artist, within my own school i believe it’s my right, and obligation to take what i’ve learned and expand on it. I also have the desire to create as well. I am the type that if there was only one panther form, i would eventually develop more panther forms off of the original because i would totally understand the set, and the meaning of what i was doing, so why would it be wrong to create more?

These are just thought’s i’m getting off of my mind…and just wanting to hear your opinions.

peace

2

How many people out there would pass up their sifu creating a set especially for them for something traditional?

If my sifu were to create something for me, personally I treasure it the same as I would Lau Bun’s most authentic stuff.

just wanting to know.

3

Personally I like traditional forms. I don’t think it is wrong to add sets if you are good enough and in no way are they not valid but they are not original and not traditional in the sense that they have been passed down through different generations.

Personally I don’t think Chan Hueng created as many sets as some might. I think many of the 2nd, 3rd and 4th generation sifus added sets and brought in weapons.

My lineage has plenty of sets to choose from so there is no reason to create any more.

4

we have a good amount as well but i still feel the creative pulse in my veins.

however, i still don’t think it takes many forms to get you good at fighting, but sometimes they are good stress relievers.

5

creating sets

I don’t know how I feel about creating my own sets. But I do make up my own techniques(moves , combos. whatever U wanna call em) using blocks and strikes that I’ve learned, so I guess it’s not too much different

6

Hi,

I think you are doing what is natural for you and create a form that flows using your own body movements and abilities. Nothing wrong with that cause you know your limitations!

Downfall is many will say you are just taking money off students if you are to teach it for money. But does it even matter anyway there are many systems teachers that have added forms and stuff to there art its a way of evolving.

Make up a grappling form of CLF that hasnt been done?!

Garry

7

Some of the stuff that we have made up was focused on certain situations.

For example how would you deal with someone busting in on you while your taking a dump in a public restroom? What if you were handcuffed? how would you deal with that?

See we have our natural traditional sets like the staff, kwan do, butterfly knives and such. So i figure it would be a contribution to our system (my branch) if I were to created put together a new butterfly knife set, a new double dagger set, and so on. the way i see it, it’s not too bad to have more that one set on a certain thing.

whatever I create and pass down to my students I am going to call “Modern Choy Lee Fut” and as the generations go by, it will become a tradtional set.

but like CLF Nole said, other members of the CLF lineage created and contributed to the system in their time, so why not me in mine?

And Since my branch is Hung Sing whatever we create is as chan heung did, strictly for our direct school.

peace.

8

Creating Forms…

Well, by the time you are able to create functional forms, you should be on your way to build a style of your own. That’s the “traditional” way if you ask me.

The fighting experience and ability that one has at that point, couple with the creativity and artistry on forms should secure the said individual to a prominent place in the martial arts community. So why live in someone else’s shadow?

This is why traditionally there might be armies of talented people, they weren’t that interested in creating new forms and such unless they have something really important to say about their insights of their martial experiences or their parent style.

Personally and no offense, the “why have only one when we can have two of each of those” is never a good enough reason for the proliferation of forms in any style traditional and otherwise (although I am sure modern Wushu or XMA have no problem this line of thoughts.)

Just some thoughts

Regards

Mantis108

9

Frank, I think as long as you put together something that stays true to CLF it is okay. I personally have never felt the need as many forms I know suit my body type, but to each their own. I could make a set and have thought about it but then though why bother to add more to the 60+/- sets I know, I have enough to remember already.

Sorry if I am rambling, took my pops out for fathers day dinner and had a bit to much wine. You know us whops like our wine.

10

yeah i Know about the vino.

but see, even my sifu has contributed forms to our system. We have one that I’m teaching my students called Joi Yau Pow Choy which uses a whole lot of uppercuts. Personally I like the set and that’s why i pass it down. in fact, I would prefer to preserve anything my sifu creates because one day i or my students will look back and either say one of two things.

  1. i’m glad that we kept practicing that set sifu made up.

Or

  1. Dang, I wish we would have preserved that set, it was great.
    Personally I’m sticking with #1.

I think within you own schools, the sifu should create things for HIS students that they can treasure down the line somewhere and say “My sifu taught this to me”.

I’m sure Sifu Gus or Lama Sifu would feel the same way about any thing that came directly from Chan Tai San. The same goes for CLFNole, I’m not sure if LKH created anything solely for you, but if he did that for me, I would treasure it like nothing else because what that is is the essence of your sifu, his skill, and the knowledge before him.

The evolution reality of gung fu is the right idea. While keeping the old traidtional stuff, the head of a system should be responsible to expanding and making the style grow so our elders could be proud of us. In addition, we are in modern times, we need modern gung fu to deal with modern problems. one of those problems is with grappling. No one created a new regimen when it came to the kind of grappling or mixed martial arts you find today. so yeah, it’s up to us to take the gung fu our founders gave us into the next millenium.

peace.

11

was jaw yau biu seh ur sifu’s creation aswell?

12

no,
Joi Yau Biu Sei was something handed down to my sifu from his first sifu, Chan Bing, who was a disciple of Lau Bun. Not too sure if he put it together, or if Lau Bun passed that down to him. What’s important, is it’s all true Choy Lee Fut.

As the heaquarters of our branch, and that Lau Bun’s gung fu is passed down within our school, I feel that we have an obligation to continue to develop Lau Bun’s Choy Lee Fut, which I stand on being Choy Lee Fut in it’s early stages. He took what was taught then, and continued to develop what he learned.

And, when it comes to traditional sets, it’s funny that most of our schools have the same sets by name only, but none of them are the same in content with other branches. it makes you wonder if our sigung’s and dai sigung’s contributed their own version of CLF to what they were teaching. You have to wonder why isn’t the sets the same? possibly because they were all created by people in our lineage.

As CLFNOLE said, it’s more likely that chan heung created a good number of forms, but I feel more was added by those that came after him.

and since our elders created more sets, that’s why I wanted to know if they could do it then, then why couldn’t we do it now, and be valid, not in ancient authenticity, but in true, and effective choy lee fut. CLF people will notice when our system is being tampered with by other systems.

13

but joi yau biu sei is one of my favorite sets.

I won a good number of tournaments with that set. But, there is some real good fighting techniques in there, if you know how to see them.

14

yeh i got it on dvd from my sifu hehehe

i like it wen ur sifu says ‘jaw yau biu se, left right shooting snake’ hehe

15

As i said in the past i believe in maintaining tradition. But i also beleive in the quest as sifu’s to constantly look to improve their art in any way. At my school we learn the full systems of Hung Gar and Wing Chun, but we also learn some forms from a few other styles my Sifu has studied over the many years of his training. All of these forms from other styles are apparent in my Sifu’s gung fu. My Sifu also keeps some of these forms “to pay homage to the masters i learned them from”, as he put it. Like our Kwan Do is unchanged, from being handed down straight from the southern shaolin temple, (i know, i know…people are gonna jump all over me for that one..:smiley: ).

Ont the flip side my Sifu created his own butterfly knives set. He took all he knew from all the styles he learned, all his favorite techniques, and put them into a knife form. I honestly must say it is truely impressive, its an awesome form, and a great addition to our system, since it encompasses all the styles my Sifu learned. There is also the gold coin spade form that my Sifu put together. He took the best of what he knew and put that form together, one of my personal favorites. This has only been passed down to a few, so its special to me.

I think the result of any good sifu will be change. Whether it be in techniques, forms, fighting style, or theory. I would question any sifu who has not added to his own system to make it better in some way.

16

now that siu lum,

was deep.:wink:

hsk

17

Siu-Lum, yeah, your Sifu’s Butterfly Knife set is very good, both visually and from a practical point of view. I also liked his Gim set.
In this same respect your Si-Gung took the double broadswords set he had learned from his Sifu, and inserted the Bot Gua footwork into it. This is (one of his many) opus(s)and I felt privledged to have learned it.
Just as your own personal knowledge and understanding of your self, and your art, grows, you are a work in progress. Kung-Fu is also a work in progress, and as such we are obligated to keep this growth process continuing. Gwok Si, Gwok Faht-each Sifu, his own method. Each Sifu will make what he feels is his contribution, or his expression of self through the art. In this way, our art is not dead, but a living breathing, growing entity.

18

Every time I ask Sifu about the old masters, he has the same reply, “Dead now”.

Good kung fu lives or dies in the hands of the living, its pretty simple, but hard for a lot of people to grasp as they lean on tradition and lineage and the bravado of reputation. As an inheritor, it comes down to you alone to make your decisions and to live with them. There are great ones, there are not-so-great ones too.

Mantis, as always, has a good point, if you have new ideas, start a new style, let it sink or swim on your own skills and reputation.

Likewise, not every player, despite their best efforts and devotion, is equal. Nor is every art structured with the same lessons.

So, when you make up your own stuff, is it up to scratch? Does it add something? Or, is it just more of the same re-hashed into a different sequence? This is something every aspiring sifu has to ask themselves, are they breathing life or death into the art, and who can answer for you? I think its not that simple, and not the same answer for everyone. But these are the questions to ask yourself.

I know that I believe simplicity and directness are more effective than complicated and complex. Most of the “new” stuff I’ve seen people create is more complicated than “traditional” stuff. I believe that when it comes to Kung Fu, more is not better.

But, that’s just me, and what I have learned. I know it certainly does NOT apply to every player and every art, and as I said, every generation has the responsibility to keep its art alive and relevent.

19

Thanks for the kind words TT. Yea, his Gim set is very nice, he put alot into that as well. We are both so priveledged to have been passed down such great knowledge from Si-Gung. Si-Gung and Sifu are two truely great Sifu’s, they both have done so much to improve our art at all levels.