traditional sets vs. sets invented by your sifu

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
21

I think that every sifu likes to add their flavour to the system, to sort of leave their signature on their students or their school.

Whether it is the way they perform certain techniques, or the theory behind things. Nothing wrong with creating a form as long as the prnciples and techniques follow the system.

I have to disagree with clfnole about the weapons because there are different power generations and different techniques to suit the style and power training (only in certain weapons though)!

22

I don’t know about you, but I think it is safe to say 95% of all MAists do not know how to use weapons (I mean actually fight with them), especially gung fu folk. Most kwoon’s do not engage in actual weapon’s sparring.

nospam.

23

what about 2 man weapon sets? It is all about keeping the tradition of the style. I wouldn’t make up a form just for the sake of it without knowing the reason for the difference in styles!

24

Serpent

I don’t really want to go over this too many times with you, but i will this time, and i hope in a proper way, but if i get out of line, pls forgive my insolence.

"There are “3” families of choy lee fut…
chan family, hung sing, and buk sing. correct?

unless a sifu has direct lineage to the chan family line, neither the hung sing or buk sing kwoon’s will practice chan family choy lee fut.
all supposed “195” sets of the chan family was not taught from the instance clf was born. when chan heung and jeong yim created choy lee fut, no one knows exactly was taught in 1836. the sets passed on by chan heung and jeong yim were not already in existance, they created those sets. then we would be practicing choy ga sets, lee ga sets, and fut ga sets, not choy lee fut as it was created as a combination style.

i am sure every successor to each school has input new sets into their respective systems. i.e. chan koon pak, chan yiu chi///and on the hung sing side-hung sing founder jeong yim, yuen hai, chan ngau sing, lui chun, etc etc. each has created sets to add to their system.

serpent you throw around “195” sets as if you know all of them. NO ONE on this planet would ever be able to say they have, and would be able to master all 195 in their lifetime. if someone will step forward here and say they could or have, then they have no incling of choy lee fut is about. and i will state this again, all 195 sets were not created by chan heung! so if he did not create these sets, then who did? someone had to CREATE these forms.

also, it is not common for a sifu who has been doing his gung fu for 40years plus to seek out other sifu’s to further his training. everything is in what we have to continue learning what we have for liftimes. gung fu sifu’s who are worth their salt are too proud to seek out other sifu’s. i agree there might be an exchange of views, maybe even SHARE a set between themselves, but never a one sided thing.

I am Hung Sing Choy Lee Fut under the Jeong Yim Fut San lineage, not of the Chan family of choy lee fut. i have no interest in learning chan family choy lee fut at this time because hung sing and chan family do not look alike, do not execute the same, and the principals are also somewhat different. although i have chan family ping kuen, and a few others on tape as well as buk sing siu ping kuen, and more i have never looked to those tapes to learn their stuff. i am COMPLETELY satisified with what my branch teaches.

if i threw away all my sets, and only practiced my basics, i would be equally as powerful if not more than the guy who practices 150 sets.

“it is not how many sets you know, but how well you have mastered 1 of them.”

i will say this though, if one day in the future if all 3 families of clf came together with no one
at the top, all three branch leaders at an equal level…then and only then would choy lee fut be the most lethal system as a whole on this planet. and imagine chan families 195, hung sing 150+ and buk sing’s number of sets, we would have over 350 sets to learn, to teach and to research.

but could that ever happen? most of all three families would have to swallow alot of pride before this happens, but i think for the betterment of clf, it should happen.

so in closing, i opened this topic to have all 3 families share their opinions,view points, and to hopefully bring us together. not to be attacked for not being a chan family member.

this goes for anyone here, i have not attacked anyone and have been pretty mellow this time, but if your intentions are to push my buttons, then take this quote with you “Back the **** off me”

frank
:wink:

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head

25

for everyone else

i would like to thank everyone else for sharing their opinions without making silly comments. let’s keep up this effort to share with each other our view points without getting off track.

i see half of you agree with creating new sets, while some disagree, but that’s ok. lets keep it going.

thanks frank

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

26

Sifu Frank:

I totally agree with you about the “195” sets the Chan Family has. I mean think about this for a minute, CLF was supposed to have been designed to overthrow the Ching Dynasty and was reportedly very popular because it could be taught quickly to the rebel fighters at the time.

If this was true then why in God’s name would Chan Hueng sit around and create 195 forms, it doesn’t make any sense. At this time kung fu was a element for survival and therefore actually fighting played a much greater role than the development of forms. I do believe he likely created a number of hand, weapon and dummy sets but that the rest of the “195” were added by later generation sifus.

The same holds true with our Hung Sing CLF which has over 100 sets. Jueng Hung Sing likely created a few base hand forms (i.e. Sup Gee Kow Dah Kuen) and weapons sets and then forms were added by later sifus.

To think that founders created all of the forms a style has to offer is a bit naive. So if one wants to add a form to their system and they have the credentials and know how, then let them. I personally would not want to “add” a new form to the system, but I do from time to time put together a “form” for demonstrations.

Peace.

27

clfnole

when you said you have put together forms for demonstrations, and if somewhere down the line someone asks “can you teach me that demonstration form”? then you have now added that form to your existing regimine, right?

as long as you have the approval of your sifu, and he guides you in doing this, then i also agree that it is ok to add a form.

when it comes to the dummy sets, it is said that it was ho ngau that invented forms for the dummy.
only techniques were used on it previously.

Prof. lau bun learned from an hung sing master under jeong yim, and when his master died, prof. lau bun came to america. yes he created some forms that has been passed down from teacher to teacher.

but when my sifu went to fut san last year, he was told by the head sifu of the fut san hung sing kwoon is all that matters in hung sing is the opening and the closing of the form. what comes in the middle can be different from others. the opening and closing of the forms in hung sing clf are revolutionary, there is even a anti-ching poem inside the openings.

peace.

frank

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

28

I have heard something about the opening having meaning. My CLF which comes from Lee Koon Hung has typically two openings, what we refer to as Sup Gee Jong and Pa Kwa Sum Jong. I was never able to ask Lee Koon Hung why the two different openings and his brother didn’t know why either.

Peace.

29

adding on to a set

when it comes to weapon sets, what do you all feel about adding moves to an existing set?

for example, if your stick set is basic, and you feel it would be a more effective set if you add a few extra strikes, blocks and such.

maybe you would feel that the set needs more footwork. i mean no set is supreme without a few modifications done to it. then it would always be evolving, right?

i think addition,revision and creation to sets are a good tool to a new sifu, student in understanding his gung fu as he knows it.

fran

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

30

I have often done this in tournaments. I like the staff form Dai Hung Kai (Great Red Banner), however in one instance the tournament had a time minimum requirement and the form well under the requirement. I added a modified section of Shueng Garp Dan Kwun (single & double head staff) to it to lengthen the time. The added section extended the form nicely and even had the same type of rythem and tempo as well as overall techniques and general purpose.

Peace.

31

clfnole

so how did you do in that tournament?

yeah, i noticed that most of my sets are pretty long when done at half speed. but when you blast thru the sets it can go under the time limit.

but i will tell you something. for the longest time since the opening of our school in the 30’s,
we have always been leary of video cameras. we don’t want people stealing our stuff. so when we see video cameras, especially out in public, we do what we call chop suey. meaning, we make up something choy lee fut style, but it is so freestyle that if you asked me to perform it again, i could not do the same thing.

example, i don’t normally train for tournaments, i will just get up that morning and decide to go.
my very first tournament, i went in intending to perform one of our sets, and i was going to shock them with strength and speed, and ferocity. but i got so damn excited that i lost my train of thought. from that point on i made up every move so spontaneously, and i paid attention to where i first started so i can end in the same place and did so.

as a result i took first place. i couldn’t stop laughing, because i made up most of the set right there on the spot. so i went into the grandchampionships that day and competed against a few, and tied for first. but once again i made it up from the start, it was not a prearranged set. so when the judges asked me to perform the same set, i panicked because how was i supposed to repeat the same thing? but i tried, and then in the middle i took an extra strep that threw me off track and bowed out right then and there.
the judges said “you are not bowing out!” i said “thank you sir, yes i am” they said no! i said yes! then they said “you would have won, but since you bowed out early, we cannot give it to you”. i said i understood. all the competitors were like you won, man, why did you stop? i said it didn’t matter. until i saw that 6 foot trophy!!! then i said damn! NEXT TIME!!!

fran :smiley:

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

32

I got 2nd, lost to some “shaolin” student in a robe claiming he was doing traditional staff. It was your basic wushu, slamming the staff on the ground and alot of flowers. The judges were mainly wushu so going in I knew what I was up against.

Funny thing, your sifu judged me in short weapon at Tat Wong’s 1997 Tournament. I got 2nd to my si hing.

Peace.

33

really?

yeah,

hopefully you’re not mad at my sifu for that. but he is not too biased when it comes to clf. he even judged me when i did a double chain whip set.

i actually used his personal whips in that tournament too.

i have been a judge at many of tat’s tourney’s as well as lily lau. i have always tried to be a fair judge. but at a tai yim tourney there was a eagle claw school that was on a binge of destruction. i mean show your style, but don’t intend to harm another student. this eagle claw school’s sifu began starting trouble. well, i was a judge for one of the matches and doc fai’s people were fighting these eagle claw students. at first i didn’t get involved but as soon as the eagle claw students got out of hand, when no one was looking, i coached some of doc fai’s people in what to do, and when it worked, that eagle claw students classmate was out for revenge and literally charge doc fai’s guy and picked him up and slammed him on the ground. i stopped the fight and called tai yim over, explained what happened and had that school kicked out. i will always be fair, but i still love my clf people.

frank

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

34

Actually a met a student from your school at the same tournament who did the double whips in our division. He told that he had seen the movie with my sifu in it and mentioned he had been a bad car accident sometime prior to the tournament.

Do you know this person?

I don’t remember what your school’s 3-section whip form looked like. I learned our version some years later and recently saw hung gar’s version which was very similar.

Peace.

35

clfnole

that was some time ago. and that person was me. i was a little heavier then, a little weaker in my leg strength. since then i have become so much stronger, and faster.

what actually happened to me was the i was paralyzed from a 50 ft fall. i broke my back in 3 places and was supposed to never walk again. but the only thing i could think of when that happened was “i would never be able to practice gung fu again.” but my love and desire, along with the never ending support and drive from my sifu, who never let me give up, even when i wanted to so many times. but he pushed and pushed me and today i am way much stronger, faster and a little skinnier.

when i competed in the division with you, i was not in the best of shape, and my lower half didn’t move as well. but you should see me now. things have changed!!!

i am glad you remembered me. which one were you, the asian one or the white one?

fran :smiley:

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”

36

I am the white guy, I was wearing a white uniform with black trim and did the Fu May Dan Do form.

That was quite a while ago. I heard Tat Wong might have a tournament next year. If I go maybe I’ll see you there.

Keep up the good topics.

37

part 2 of my question

in the hung ga style, did not wong fei hung create the tiger and crane set? that was not originally a set passed down before? but that has become a very famous set, right?

did not lee koon hung add new moves or attach his own earmark on siu mui fah, making it an extended set?

well, all i know is hung sing choy lee fut. i have never learned a chan family set, or a buk sing set. if for some reason my sifu passed away, and took with him lets say our buddha palm set, tiger claw set, and maybe a panther set, and as i have said, all i know is hung sing choy lee fut, as long as i stay true to what has been passed down to me, follow the patterns of previous sets, understand the choy lee fut way of doing things, not interject methods from outside my school, if i created these sets myself, would they not be hung sing choy lee fut sets?

i mean, not every person will receive the complete system, certain sets just aren’t for certain people. i mean you wouldn’t put a pair of daggers in the hands of a 6’5" 250 lb student and huge kwan do in the hands of lets say a 5’4" 120 lb student.
the sets just aren’t for the wrong body type. yes, we can all learn these sets, but who would it look better on?

preferably, if my sifu passed away, i would most likely created sets and pass them on, because i would most likely never take another sifu. i fell if you take a sifu, then that is your sifu for life. that is why i have only studied hung sing clf under my sifu for so long.

he even asks me who i would learn from if he died, i tell him i would never take another sifu. i may exchange sets with others, but i will only have one sifu.

fran :wink:

"graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head

38

I think Lee Koon Hung as most other sifus do, put his own style on the forms he passed on. I think this is common amongst sifus from all styles. I think this is a good thing and because of it we all don’t look like karate robots with everyone doing the form the same.

P.S. I think the answer to your 2nd question is yes it would be hung sing.

Peace.

39

clfnole

hey man,

thanks for your comments, but since it seems like no one else wants to participate, i will end this topic here.

hopefully we will meet again, and we can laugh about the postings on this forum.

website is hungsing.com you can email me there if you like.

take care, practice hard and research our history, don’t let it die, teach it to the younger students. jeong hung sing’s branch will live forever.

frank

“graceful staff flies above like a dragon wiggling it’s tail-strong fist releases out like a tiger raising its head”