Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)

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As previously said. Forms are catalogues or indexing the moves for references.

It certainly would take a while to do 37 to 48 moves in a row. How about 88 or 108 moves? There are chapters or segments or Duan, too.

The moves usually have names of 4 Chinese characters, sometime 7 characters or more.

When I was young, I was very quick to learn the single move.

White Crane Spreading Wing. Shoo shoo.

6 Sealings 4 closings. Shoo shoo.

Buddha Warrior Pounding Morters. Shoo Peng Shoo.

The form, I have to do over and over to remember the sequence right. Of course I have cheat sheets or Q cards. I memorized the first Chinese Character in each posture or Shi.

Later the teacher found out. He said no. I had to recite the whole names in sequence. I just could not do it right away.

The teacher said think of it like poems or songs. I pitched the names with a music I like and I started to sing it. It worked for me.

Qi Shi Kai Tai Ji. Jing Gong Dau Zui. Lan Za Yi. Liu Feng Si Bi. Dan Bian. –

Men. Not only did I remember the moves in Toulu. I remembered the names, too.

Do I need a book or vcd or DVd ? nope. After 25 years, I still remember all the moves and the names.

My point is that forms are moves in logical sequence. So how I got “imprinted” with them.

No books, No DVD player. No problem. Grasshopper. I have everything right in my mind and my body. It is like a song. It is like a poem.

I know one day you will learn all the moves from me. You do not need to write or video anything. If you know all the moves in the form. If you know the form, then you also know all the moves in the form.

All in due time.

What it Tai Ji Quan? What is Lao Jia Yi Lu or Pao Zui Er Lu?

What is “running steps single whip”?

I have all the chapters and the words in the forms or segments of many moves in logical order.

There is no book to read. There is no Bible to flip pages to read the verses in chapters and books.

There are the form, the moves and you.

:smiley:

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Qi Shi Kai Tai Ji. Jing Gong Dau Zui. Lan Za Yi. Liu Feng Si Bi. Dan Bian.

Bai He Liang Chi, Lou Hsi Ao Bu, I hear ya brother. Sing it.:smiley:

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Re: Re: Traditional forms training. (especially knifefighter)

Originally posted by SevenStar
sparring was frowned upon in japanese styles until the late 1920’s, and was still frowned upon by some after that. One notable man - ginchin funakoshi, thought that it downgraded the art. I’ve hear similar about some chinese styles. How was fighting a part of such training if it was frowned upon?

Indeed. And it’s been reported that Motobu, with whom Funakoshi clashed ideologically and politically, owned all over Funakoshi with a nice throw.

Of course, Motobu taught one or two forms, 12 short two-man drills.

And his student, Tatsuo Shimabuku, incouraged sparring with kendo armor, as to allow greater force to be applied without fear of injury.

coughkarateroxorscough

It’s noted, however, that forms training when used as part of an escalating scale of intensity led to improved fighting capability whilst utilizing actual technique/movement principle found within the forms.

At least, that’s something which has been discussed by the more “progressive” classically-messy practitioners, as well as a bunch of smart folk, over in the Upping the Training Ante thread in the JKD forum.

104

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing.

Actually, you’re right. I never expceted you to keep posting in response to my oppinion, but since you did, I kept responding.

[b]Let’s try this analogy:

Two painters, one only uses 2 colors and paints only straight lines.

The other uses a variety of colors and paints lines, circles, arcs, etc.

Which one is limited in his artistic expression?

If you say the first CAN be artistic then you’re missing the point, or arguing for the sake of arguing. You’ll never convince me that the first can be as creative and artistic as the other. [/B]

that’s flawed in that each human mind is different. those straight lines can be drawn in all sorts of intriguing angles… I personally don’t like flash that much. thai boxers rain elbows and jack joints as well. To me, watching two fighters using the same technique set in vastly different ways is way more expressive and interesting than butterfly kicks will ever be.

105

As relates to use of specific skill set to accomplish physical defense . . .

I find two advantages and two disadvantages to the classical training method:

A1: Generally unorthodox. Sometimes allows noticing holes not generally exploited by orthodox methods.

A2: Forms method of teaching sometimes allows practitioner to see variations of a given theme and allows exploration thereof at a lower intensity level before moving on to the harder stuff.

D1: Takes longer. It just takes longer using such a specific skillset as presented by classical/traditional schools to pick up and apply in the same time frame as “modern” schools.

D2: Use of solo and/or cooperative training can preclude the more difficult and necessary drilling and sparring.

Of course, I’m stuck in a classical mess, so what do I know? :wink:

106

Originally posted by red5angel
MK made a good point about perspective I think is rarely considered as well. Ray and Ross’ guys al train to compete in sports, something that requires more precise training. One who trains to defend themselves may not necessarily require that type of intense training. I’m not saying it wouldn’t help of course, I’m just saying it’s not necessary to be a “good” fighter.

For the record: my master detests the word “sport” associated with martial art. For him it is “kill or be killed” and kind of looks down on what I want to do. Why would I go to fight with a BJJ who wants to rip my arm off but I can’t punch him in the nose? Why go fight the San Da guy who can knee me but I can’t elbow him? Everybody sets up the rules to take advantage of their own strenghts. That’s why TKD doesn’t allow foot catching or kicking the supporting leg.

We consider it gentlemanly not to poke the eye or kick the balls. Other than that, be my guest.

Just wanted to make that clear, because I wouldn’t want to turn away a potential student of my master. We are not a sport school. I am just a student there who happens to be interested in fighting for sport and this style happens to suit me.

107

I sing : A—, B—, C–, D-, E-, F-, G–.

The Alien said oh, English is only 26 alpa bet or A and B.

I said WRONG. Human kind derives over 10,000 words with 26 ArB.

So there are 26 moves in a form.

How many apps or words may one derive?

:confused: :smiley: :cool:

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Everybody sets up the rules to take advantage of their own strenghts.

:cool:

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Originally posted by Ray Pina
For the record: my master detests the word “sport” associated with martial art. For him it is “kill or be killed” and kind of looks down on what I want to do. Why would I go to fight with a BJJ who wants to rip my arm off but I can’t punch him in the nose? Why go fight the San Da guy who can knee me but I can’t elbow him?
That’s what MMA competitions are for… so everyone gets to use their game.

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Originally posted by tug
Ever hear of KINESIOLOGY? No? Look it up. This is what form work is for.
What do forms have to do with kineseology?

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That’s what MMA competitions are for… so everyone gets to use their game.

that’s not completely true.

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Originally posted by Knifefighter
What do forms have to do with kineseology?

I have to agree. I can see how kineseology could help your kung fu, but I see no way for forms to help it.

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That was a really bad explanation for what kineseology back there on that link. shudder Next time try wikepedia or something. Dictionary.com or your local university course curriculum.

This quote was funny too:

Originally posted by Hua Lin Laoshi
Sometimes I think you argue just for the sake of arguing.

Actually, you’re right. I never expceted you to keep posting in response to my oppinion, but since you did, I kept responding.

Let’s try this analogy:

Two painters, one only uses 2 colors and paints only straight lines.

I’d like to envision a 3rd painter but this one doesn’t even use colors and heck doesn’t even use lines but dots…oh waitasec…that’s how photographs work…

114

Why would I go to fight with a BJJ who wants to rip my arm off but I can’t punch him in the nose?

For the record, the Gracie family put up a $100,000 reward for anybody that could defeat them in a no rules match. The money was never taken.

MMA has proven what works and what does not via a sporting event, its just that many people out there don’t like the result.

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Originally posted by omarthefish
That was a really bad explanation for what kineseology back there on that link. shudder Next time try wikepedia or something. Dictionary.com or your local university course curriculum.

Worked well enough for the point I was making, i.e. how it could help forms but not the other way around. The link explained what most martial artists do anyway. If one has a week mucsle goup one trys to figure out why then how to best fix it…:rolleyes:

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Compared to Kung Fu western boxing is BORING!!!

Uh nothing personal, but you haven’t ever studied or practiced western boxing have you? Because, although boring/not boring is completely subjective, I think the actual experience of doing boxing training is NOT boring.

I do Kungfu too, and it’s not boring either. But ultimately, your own kungfu comes down to only a few moves that you can effectively apply with any great percentage of success.

anyway…just wanted to protest.
Also, you don’t see too many “kungfu masters” beating any western boxers. :stuck_out_tongue: (<< inflammatory and ridiculous statement)

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Originally posted by Sim Koning
[B]For the record, the Gracie family put up a $100,000 reward for anybody that could defeat them in a no rules match. The money was never taken.

MMA has proven what works and what does not via a sporting event, its just that many people out there don’t like the result. [/B]

Is this still on the table?

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Originally posted by Knifefighter
What do forms have to do with kineseology?

I don’t think Tug meant exercise kinesiology but only kinesiology in the broad sense that you move and adjust your body while learning forms. Maybe some mild aerobic effect to that but obviously only a side effect.

This has been interesting for me to hear so many opinions but I posted originally to help traditionalists understand that training in forms, while it was an important aspect of learning a system of martial arts, has nothing to do with learning to fight. There are many other training methods, some of which are unique and others that are in common across the board that teach you how to apply your system. There are also specific methods of body development that are interesting to discuss.

If you guys want to talk about the value of other systems that do not have forms in their system, or talk about your childhood hero’s who you think are unbeatable (they’re not), That’s fine. But I have only heard a couple of guys only mention briefly some of the real CMA training in this thread and that makes me wonder if any of you on this forum know what it takes to learn them. Even Gene, who publishes a magazine about them, runs articles that are mostely application based, forms based, or historic, but I seldom see any real training articles in them. Maybe a rare one now and than. But even Gene hasn’t added anything.

I even saw a spin-off thread about changing forms pop up. So I’ll frame the question a bit differently to see if you understand what I’m saying. How many of you can show and explain what each movement of your form is for? If you can, can you make it work against a boxer or one of your childhood, muscle head, hero’s? Do you even understand how to stick to a boxer from your forms training? Do you even understand what I mean when I discuss principles like “sticking” and “following” and where do forms teach you how to do this? For now I won’t touch on strengthening and conditioning training in CMA. But can someone who thinks you can learn to fight from forms explain how forms teach these?

119

count-

wouldn’t you agree that forms teach structure and motion, rooting, stepping patterns, launching attacks while mobile etc etc.

One of teh key elements being correct structure. An attack delivered from a string structure developed through form is generally more powerful than an attack delivered from poor structure.

Even in boxing there is correct and incorrect ways of doing everything. elbows are kept down for somethings and allowed to move out for others depending on what is being delivered.

Forms are part of the process in other words to come to an ability to fight. the actual learning to fight comes after this in a kungfu regimen. ie: basic/form/ force feedback/live sparring/free form fighting being the progressive path of the kungfu fighter.

so forms might not directly teach fighting, but they are part and parcel to it in the long run. combos, skipping and medicine balls don’t teach fighting directly either, but they augment ones ability to fight.

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Originally posted by Becca
Worked well enough for the point I was making, i.e. how it could help forms but not the other way around. The link explained what most martial artists do anyway. If one has a week mucsle goup one trys to figure out why then how to best fix it…:rolleyes:

That’s what I THOUGHT the link was going to be about and I disagree with that yoo BUT what I found was a site about “muscle testing”. Although they were pretty sneaky and managed to completely avoid explaining specifically what that is, what they are talking about is things like you hold your hand out at arms length and make a fist and the tester presses your arm down while you try to resist with all your might. Then they do it again with you holding something that you think you may be allergic to or just mayeb is affecting you health and do it again. If your ability to resist goes down, that means that you are allergic or have issue with the item or whatever. You can use this to test for empotional problems and job choices or whatever.

Basically a load of new age crap and a monumental insult to the legitimate field of kineseology.

That website looks borderline to me. The “real” stuff IMO is when they attatch motion sensors to olypic atheletes and then use computers to analyze their motion and help them discover where it is inneficient or the high end research into orthopedics. Physical thereapists study kinesiology.

“muscle testing” is barely a legitamte field or may have some legitimacy but should really be grouped with psychology or something not kineseology.