Tong Long vs Wing Chun ???

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Southern Chinese Kung Fu
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pro+s and cons ??

I study a martial art derived from Tong Long, and i’ve always heard that Wing Chun is very scientific, fast and deadly. Seeing as my martial art is also these things, how do they compare?

Is there anything I should know about Wingchun that would help me in a confrontation with a practiser of Wingchun who missuses his power?

On another note, a Wingchun kungfu school turned down teaching me because I was still learning Tong Long.

Talk about kungfu politics, i didnt think there were any until then?

whats up with that? are kungfu masters and schools very fuedal? i thought that was only something you see in the movies.

anyway enough ranting, lets here from you guys

Peace from DOWNUNDER :smiley:

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Don’t know what Tong Long you’re studying & don’t know what Wing Chun you’re talking about so not much can be said truthfully about comparing two hands & there are differences in Tong Long & differences in Wing Chun with same name, Pai. Yes to politics & it always turns out bad so I stay away from politics & arguing politics never made a person’s hand better that I know of & kung fu is doing & not words.

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DT is correct—there are quite different approaches in tong long and wing chun. At their best both are superb- individual skills can vary widely. Not acceptinga student is not necessarily an indicator of politics. Many factors can enter into these decisions.
BTW its not easy to start off learning two arts at the same time.
The sifu of Art A may tire of always correcting things that you are importing from art B. Different structures and body shaping are involved in the two arts.

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Yuanfen good advices & good name you choose too. Not really possible to say with truth if WC guys does this then TL guys should do that & not like real fight in real fight men fight & hand is there & hand is in the man not man in the hand so man is more important than hand. Just me & not a fact.

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Re: Tong Long vs Wing Chun ???

Hello Ging Mo Fighter,

Just some thoughts. I wouldn’t be too worried about wing chun in particular. I don’t neccesarily one should learn to fight specific styles since there are WAY too many of them. You should instead focus on what presents itself.

If your looking for specifics about wing chun, then you would be looking for straight relentless attacks as typical. Wing Chun applies a lot of forward pressure and is difficult to move off if the guy is any good. Wing Chun is very economical and it is hard to stop them AND to follow up. It is best to take the offensive rather than a defensive approach in general. Choy Li Fut and Muy Thai has given wing chun some problems historically, so you might look at some of there apporaches. Of course this is just generalities that don’t always apply.

I know very little of tong long, but I think there are some similarities and a lot of differences. I would not be the best to compare them since I have so little knowledge of Tong Long. I myself study some wing chun and hung gar.
Tom

Outdoor Forced

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GMF, I asked a similar question on the Wing Chun forum a while back and got very little response. I was honestly interested in what WC practitioners thought of SPM.

I think they would rather talk about lineage. lol. :smiley:

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[QUOTE]Originally posted by TaoBoy
[B… I was honestly interested in what WC practitioners thought of SPM.

TaoBoy - Actually I am rather interested in SPM. The only thing is, I had have very limited experience with it. I think that its interesteing that we have similar terms and concepts but express them differently.
The demonstration I saw was very cool. If I ever play kung fu with a SPM guy I’ll definetly post about my experience.

I think they would rather talk about lineage. lol.

Man, so thats the reputation wing chun has in this neighborhood?
Can’t say I never thought the same thing !! :smiley:

-David

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Wing Chun style

Would anybody take issue with the suggestion that Wing Chun is a more modern and streamlined system than Pak Mei or SPM?

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Yum Cha, when I think of wing chun, I always come back to a question about its depth.

Spm etc have their chi/hay gung, medicine/massage, shock(ing) power and even poetry but I hear nothing about equivalent aspects of wing chun. Have I missed something?

If I have it correctly, then yes, WC would be a streamlined and modernised art. By implication, modernisation would be stripping out a large proportion of the accumulated wisdom that went into its conception.

Lack of time prevents me editing this for readbility or tact!

-David, speaking from vast ignorance.

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David,

Please explain about the relationship between accumulated wisdom and an arts conception. If the wisdom has been accumulated a-priori to an arts conception, then the art in question is not original, if it follows a-posteriori, then the wisdom of the art exists prior to any experience that may have conceived it. If that is the case then all arts are ‘modernizations’ of things gone before. Also, why should modernization be conceived of in the negative? Does it have to follow that it involves stripping away of accumulated wisdom? Can it not also be rationalization by stripping away impracticalities? Can it not also be an improvement bt refinement? Is Chow-gar not a modernization of previous Hakka boxing arts?

People like to compare and contrast Wing-Chun with Bak-Mei and SPm. There are a lot of diffences, but firstly it would help to decide which version of which art in what context is being considered.

No art exits without its practitioners. Thats the place to look.

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YC very close to politics & I hope my answer doesn’t cause ruckus so I say it’s just my opinion & not fact & yes I have crossed hands with WC people from different lineages & they are all different. Another thing I must say first is that it is the man & not the hand that wins or loses in such things so no disrespect to WC hand & there are probably WC peoples that can beat me but I never found any & it is just man & not hand okay? Just for me WC is not more modern & streamlined version of SPM & PM & I feel their hand as starting point not completely developed & their hand feels more like short hand version of H’ung Gar than anything else I’ve touched. This is just me & opinion & not fact.

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Originally posted by David
[B]Yum Cha, when I think of wing chun, I always come back to a question about its depth.

Spm etc have their chi/hay gung, medicine/massage, shock(ing) power and even poetry but I hear nothing about equivalent aspects of wing chun. Have I missed something? [/B]

I think you just haven’t been exposed to the lineages of wing chun that do offer those things. There are some families that have hei gung development, healing and poetry.

Im not quite sure what “shocking power” is but wing chun is very powerfull at delivering short range attacks.

Just my 2 pesos
-David

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desertwingchun 2,

What is short range? Is it the ‘distance’ for short power? Can long arm bridges produce short power too?

Diamond Talons: if Wing Chun is like a short hand of Hung-Gar, can Hung-Gar not have short powers too?

If Wing Chun operates at a defining range then that is only long or short relative to others, to itself its simply what it is according to its structures. A big tall Wing-Chun man with long arms can easily have a ‘longer’ bridge than a very small Choy-Lay-Fut man with proportionately short arms.

Who can say what ‘short power’ is? Is it the same as Shock power - David?

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Hi

This is very interesting,

Any Southern Fist peeps in San Diego that would want to meet and compare friendly like.

Maybe compare and then have tea?

David McKInnon

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You ask good questions NF & no politics & this is good too. Just me again & I always test my hand & test against not Hakka Tong Long people so much as other hands. My favorite test is against H’ung Gar hand as good H’ung Gar people give real power & can take a hit too & the best I’ve crossed hands with in H’ung Gar they are short hand or medium hand or long hand & it doesn’t matter to them they hit hard no matter what distance. Just for me I call short power from the point of touch with finger tips with hand relaxed & fingers extended to point into target. Not concerned with how extended my bridge is or isn’t & just from touch strike with real power & in any direction & any angel & doesn’t really matter the target too. Hit whatever is open & hit hard enough to destroy what’s hit bone or muscle or internal organ anything.

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DT sez:there are probably WC peoples that can beat me but I never found any & it is just man & not hand okay?

Its a big world- generalizations are problematic.
yuanfen

One has to be in spm or wc for a while under competent instruction to understand depth issues. Best not to jump to conclusions
yuanfen

David sez:Spm etc have their chi/hay gung, medicine/massage, shock(ing) power and even poetry but I hear nothing about equivalent aspects of wing chun. Have I missed something?

Yes. But depends on which neighborhood you visit.
yuanfen

David M:Any Southern Fist peeps in San Diego that would want to meet and compare friendly like.

Some SPM folks are quite sane and are not on the net or its forums and lists.
yuanfen

taoboy sez:I was honestly interested in what WC practitioners thought of SPM.

Great art. If i were not exposed to superb wing chun- I would look hard for a good spm sifu…and I would not pay attention to forum **** chat on the subject.
joy chaudhuri

PS I am glad that good SPM has been less commercialized than
some versions of wing chun.

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Just a couple of notes,

Is wing chun a striped down version of Bak mei or SPM? That I am not so sure about. I personally beleive there is a connection to some of the hakka arts like Leung Ying and Manits. I also think there is a connection to White Crane. But of course there are many differences so they may not be directly related in a parrent/child relationship, but may be more of a cousin relationship.

I doubt wing chun was stripped of the various poetry, chi gung, and other stuff. I think wing chun originaly focused only on fighting. Not all arts had all these neat stuff from the begining. Hung Gar is a ver rich system, but much has been added after the fact, like iron wire. I sense a feeling of snobishness from others against wing chun. And I am not sure it is not warrented seeing as how many behave. But, make no mistake, wing chun, if understood, is a VERY capible art and I would highly recommend visiting a GOOD wing chun person rather than making a sweeping statement based on the local wing chun guy. LOL.

I am only vaguely familiar with SPM and would hate to relly comment, but I think wing chun has something similar to shocking power, though I think the method is a little differnt. I wish I new more about each. Power in wing chun has nothing to do with range. Many Wing Chun people are still overly preocupied with Bruce Lee and use the inch punch as some measure. But it can be applied at various ranges with the arms at various extensions as was questioned in an earlier post. I agree with Diamond Talons on his assesment of not reallying matter. I have meet only a few wing chun people that could do these things, but I have meet them. I don’t think ones experience suggests it is lacking in wing chun, but rather the lack of experiencing a good wing chun person that understands the art. Wing Chun has been watered down much. It is not uncommon to see 6th or 7th generations removed from Yip Man already. I think the quality has degraded in many circles. It seems the hakka arts are much more critical to who they teach and have a better quality control.

Tom

Honda 1300

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I think 36 years is some time in Hakka Tong Long & how about you YF without being general? I crossed hands & not touched hands with the best the NYC Pai could bring up when there was bad blood between our Pai & I don’t lose one time & this is not general & it’s fact. T I think it matters how shocking power defined & yes to WC having this thing too as I have felt in good WC hands & what Hakka Tong Long calls ging is really many things & depends on Pai as to what’s taught & person as to what can be learned & done. BL inch punch was more a trick than real show of short power & needs certain set up to work & real short power happens because of skill & not arrangements that are made still before strike. We all see this thing where a person can do many good things in demonstration & in kwoon & fall apart in real life & I think this is a very sad thing to see happen to a person & I blame Sifu for teaching them wrong & don’t blame student who works hard on stuff that breaks not knowing it breaks until too late. Still I see where good people make not so good stuff work so I still say it’s the man & I don’t leave out woman but just say man & mean all & I don’t argue if people say it is hand first & then man that’s okay too since it’s all opinion & not fact.

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Originally posted by needlefist
[B]desertwingchun 2,

What is short range? Is it the ‘distance’ for short power? Can long arm bridges produce short power too?
[/B]

Since we do not have the benefit of having this conversation in person and do not share a “common language” I will try my best to describe my interpretation. Short range, to me, is the distance between “grappling” and long arm techniques. (I put grappling in quotes because of previous semantic arguements on “what is grappling”) That is the “short range” I was refering to in my post.

But now you ask of short power. This is something different. And I must say I don’t know your definition of short power but, since you ask, I say yes long arm bridge can produce short power.

If you would please explain your understanding of short power or shock power. Maybe I can get a better understanding and we can develop a common language for future discussion.

If Wing Chun operates at a defining range then that is only long or short relative to others, to itself its simply what it is according to its structures. A big tall Wing-Chun man with long arms can easily have a ‘longer’ bridge than a very small Choy-Lay-Fut man with proportionately short arms.

I must be slow today. I dont understand the question here. Or is there one?

Thanks for the discussion!
-David

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Diamond Talons (note my comments in brackets following yours)-

I think 36 years is some time in Hakka Tong Long
((That is great))

& how about you YF without being general?

((26 years in wing chun))

I crossed hands & not touched hands with the best the NYC Pai could bring up when there was bad blood between our Pai & I don’t lose one time & this is not general & it’s fact.

((bad blood? Not necessary. Heard about it. Good southern hands should work together not against each other.Without starting wing chun fires- I am not in any way shape or form associated with NYC WC pais-know who is who to some extent..have a very good SPM friend who was in NYC.
NYC is not the center of the universe for all))

T I think it matters how shocking power defined & yes to WC having this thing too as I have felt in good WC hands & what Hakka Tong Long calls ging is really many things & depends on Pai as to what’s taught & person as to what can be learned & done.
((I understand that SPM power can vary with teaching…same for wc))

BL inch punch was more a trick than real show of short power

((Agree- BL began in wc- do not regard him as a wc master))

& needs certain set up to work & real short power happens because of skill & not arrangements that are made still before strike.

((Of course and differs for demos or for real))

We all see this thing where a person can do many good things in demonstration & in kwoon & fall apart in real life
((True))

& I think this is a very sad thing to see happen to a person & I blame Sifu for teaching them wrong & don’t blame student who works hard on stuff that breaks not knowing it breaks until too late.

((The quick spreading of wing chun has beena bad thing IMO- lots of people teaching who shouldnt. But some spm folks engage in silly forum ego stuff))

Still I see where good people make not so good stuff work so I still say it’s the man & I don’t leave out woman but just say man & mean all & I don’t argue if people say it is hand first & then man that’s okay too since it’s all opinion & not fact.

((Sure a good man can still salvage some things. Cheers. Nice talking with you. Yuanfen)))