TMA, MMA and jing

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Kung Fu Forum
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this was posted in another thread:

"If you have ever been hit by a real kung fu master even at 25% of full power then you will readily know what the difference is. I have felt force from a Hung Ga master, Hsing Yi master, CLF master and Taiji Master. They are all slightly different but each is devastating in it’s own way.

The Hung Ga master’s poison palm caused my skin to redden and swell up. The Hing Yi masters strike felt like a icey cold needle penetrating into my body. The CLF masters strike felt like I’d been hit by a ton of bricks, etc.

Jing is refined force and power. And it only comes from constant repetition of movement.

Now I’m not saying that XMA and Wu Shu don’t require the training of certain Jings. But they are not the same Jings that are trained for fighting. "

Boxers, Thai boxers, judoka, etc. don’t normally speak of jing (obviously) - at least not in the sense that cma does, but there’s no doubt that they can knock/throw the bejesus outta someone. So, from a CMA perspective, what is the jing being used (as far as you can tell, from having seen the techniques, or from experience if you’ve trained them) in these styles?

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Depends on who’s definition of jing/ging you’re using.

A taiji guy’s gonna respond with what he observes following ward off, press, roll back, etc.

A hung gar guy’s gonna respond with what he sees following gum ging (gold power), etc.

A hsing yi will break it down to drilling, pounding, etc.

A mantis guy will compare with the 12 softs and 8 hards.

I see a good clinch as usage of ward off energy… you’re using your structure to maintain a safety zone.
Grapplers exhibit listening energy all the time (see Genki Sudo).
I think a good sprawl where you almost land on top of the guy, driving him into the ground is an example of rollback or press (always get them confused, sorry).

Splitting would seem to be a straight joint lock.
Crushing would seem to be a choke or even a push kick.
Drilling comes off to me like digging your chin into an opponent’s eye socket, possibly a strike that twists upon impact.
Pounding would be a K1 guy working his opponent’s legs (maybe even Royce’s old “softening up” blows).
Crossing can be an attack on a joint, or a twisting lock like a heel hook.

A quick, flicking jab could be an example of Bin Ging (whipping power), which is associated with crane.
Any punch you sit on would be more of the ging associated with tiger.

I could probly be here for another 5 pages.

I know none of my analogies are necessarily 100% correct, because I’m not an expert in any of the above styles.
Just trying to give some examples of how stuff like ging/jing could possibly be translated.

I’m sure a lot of purists will disagree with me.

I think the major difference of kung fu versus the sport stuff is that kung fu takes the principle, method, or type of power and tries to universally reapply it, whereas the sport or modern approach is a bit different, maybe more performance/technique oriented.

If we’re lucky, maybe someone who knows better than me will chime in.

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:eek: speakless :eek:

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I disagree with Bmore…the techniques he describes are different…some come from a temple in china, and are good, while the others do not, and are bad…

OK the kung fu practitioners jing is related to internal force, or key as we say in the trade, whereas the thai kickboxers power is mechanical strength, which is dead, as we say at my dojo.

And sprawling isn’t good because the monks didn’t do it.

Jing is good and lifting weights is bad, because my sensei says so. BTW my sensei can’t fight.

Now here’s my real answer:

OK so I do agree with Bmore…but I can tell you some traditional guys might have given a response similar to one of mine, listed above…and some, like bmore can appreciate the value of other arts.

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I hope it doesn’t look like I’m kissing @$$… but that post was pure genius kichi, you said everything I have never been able to explain but knew in my heart

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OK so I do agree with Bmore…but I can tell you some traditional guys might have given a response similar to one of mine, listed above…and some, like bmore can appreciate the value of other arts.
Well, if we are going off of pure speculation as to what others might say, my answer is that MMA don’t need jing cause they just tackle you and pound you with their huge c@cks…and oh yeah, MKC is a chump…of course, that’s just what some guys might have said to your response. Others might have disagreed.

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MK
http://www.rarb.org/images/albums/66.jpg

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So what if MKC is a chump?

Maybe he just wants to be liked. Coz you know deep down Masterkiller, that MKC really loves you and wants to be like you.

Just be careful that he doesn’t “love you with (his) whole body, even (his) peepee”. I swear my leg never felt more violated than after that, and my favorite pair of jeans STILL can’t look me in the eye.

Or maybe he doesn’t care and you just took the bait. :stuck_out_tongue:

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this thread had a potential for substance… :frowning:

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Some Baltimore San Shou people might actually postively contribute to conversations here. Others might not.

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We have too much free time…
Some of us are so goona get fired for surfing the net all day… LOL

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MK, when I said others might say this I was basing my statement on what others have already said to very similar questions, don’t believe me just check out the kung fu threads at
www.wahnam.com/forum
also at my kung fu school a lot of people think this way…so its not like I just got that out of the blue I wouldn’t presume to put words in someone’s mouth like that, all of my statements were based on actual statements I have heard purists make…I tried to give them a funny twist but essentially it is what these guys say…ask Bmore about what my kung fu friends say when were watching UFC, some of them just think anything they didn’t learn from the Sifu sux

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I hear ya. Several of the CMA guys I know say “boxers have no skill” and “If we grapple three days a week for an hour, we will be as good as the grapplers in the tourneys”

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If we grapple three days a week for an hour, we will be as good as the grapplers in the tourneys"
Wouldn’t you say the average grappler probably takes 3 (or less) 1-hour courses a week?

Or did they mean they only need 3 classes total to achieve superiorty?

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Originally posted by BMore Banga
We have too much free time…
Some of us are so goona get fired for surfing the net all day… LOL
shhhhh don’t say that so loud…
Some Baltimore San Shou people might actually postively contribute to conversations here. Others might not.
sadly… BMB is the most level headed out of the group… which really doesn’t say much…:smiley:

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Using a heel hook as a crossing movement is quite interesting , I hadn’t thought of that. Good structure in a clinch I would think is definately the first level of peng.

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I thought I wasn’t supposed to repeat the story of “shifu’s paralyzing dim mak death touches”? :confused:

That was almost as funny as:
“Why is that dude roundhouse kicking away from where the other guy’s circling and not into it? It’s like he’s trying to kick where he was 5 seconds ago.”
“If you don’t like the way they’re fighting so much, why don’t you go in there and show 'em how it’s done.”
“Not used to the rules, but as soon as my 90 day suspension’s finished (for getting KTFO), I wouldn’t mind trying.”

or

“Could you imagine if *** ****** (famous guy from MKC’s style) was in that tournament? They’d force them to wear masks because there’d be too much blood…”

Me? Level-Headed? That’s funny considering what a nutjob you know I am.

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I hear ya. Several of the CMA guys I know say “boxers have no skill” and “If we grapple three days a week for an hour, we will be as good as the grapplers in the tourneys”

I consider myself a CMA guy, but if I were to fight front facing at medium distance, I’ll box. I wanted to learn ground fighting, so now I learn at a grappling school. For total power punching, boxing is where it’s at. For me though, the combination of precision and delivery of power, positioning, control and safety, CMA is where it’s at.

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“Could you imagine if *** ****** (famous guy from MKC’s style) was in that tournament? They’d force them to wear masks because there’d be too much blood…”
if *** ****** is *** ****** than that may be kinda correct but still… why the melodrama…
Me? Level-Headed? That’s funny considering what a nutjob you know I am.
exactly…

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I have been told that boxing has the best hands. But I have also been told that CMA’s have the best hands, so I don’t know. It would seem hands are the specialty of CMA’s but thaey also have other things. If I didn’t do CMA then no matter how much MMA I trained I would not have much power and be quite weak being 175 pounds( well , relative to me with CMA training, ). Instead I’ve got destructive power and I can hit heavy bags and pads like a gun shot( well,it sounds hard) . A head high shin kick will scramble your brains quite well enough though