[QUOTE=tc101;1266993]That is not a long range punch it is a training punch.
If you think I am wrong try to use that in sparring and the light will come on.
everything looks good on paper, until you try it.
“Everyone has a plan until they’ve been hit.”
The man: Joe Louis.
those words are so true!
[QUOTE=tc101;1266993]That is not a long range punch it is a training punch.
If you think I am wrong try to use that in sparring and the light will come on.
The model is not application.[/QUOTE]
You have no idea how it is used. You know nothing about my Wing Chun. Not everything is intended for “tit for tat” sparring with your buddies! :rolleyes:
[QUOTE=KPM;1266990]I guess it depends on the straight punch! For example, in the version of WCK I practice there is a “long range” straight punch (the Pin Sun Da) that involves a large pivot, extending the punching arm until it is almost completely straight, turning the body so it is completely perpendicular to the target and pulling the opposite arm back to increase the reach and power of the punch. YSKWCK has this punch as well. There is also a very short range straight punch that is delivered without any movement of the feet or with a slight step forward, body more square to the target, with the arm very bent, and with the rear hand forward to cover or protect. Two very different mechanics. One may travel for 2 feet, while the other only 2 inches. But the delivery of the last 2 inches of travel of the long range punch is not the same as the short range punch. So in my opinion, your statement of:
without one there cannot be the other, they are one and the same. The only difference is the length of the motion.
is simply not true.[/QUOTE]
What you refer to is two different punches, not one punch in two ranges. In YCWWC these punches you refer to are called Jian Chui (Arrow Punch) & Rizi Chong Chui (Sun Character Thrusting Punch). As you mentioned Side Body representing thin shape & Facing Body representing flat shape. The strikes have to come from the same position, they cannot be of different positions as this affects what muscle groupings are involved.
See it as you like I have no wish to argue.
[QUOTE=KPM;1266996]You have no idea how it is used. You know nothing about my Wing Chun. Not everything is intended for “tit for tat” sparring with your buddies! :rolleyes:[/QUOTE]
Yes I know some things are only used for internet discussion and can never be shown to really work. My mistake.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1266997]What you refer to is two different punches, not one punch in two ranges. In YCWWC these punches you refer to are called Jian Chui (Arrow Punch) & Rizi Chong Chui (Sun Character Thrusting Punch). As you mentioned Side Body representing thin shape & Facing Body representing flat shape. The strikes have to come from the same position, they cannot be of different positions as this affects what muscle groupings are involved.
See it as you like I have no wish to argue.[/QUOTE]
Now hold Dave. You said “from the long comes the short, without one cannot be the other, they are one and the same.”
I just provided an example of a long punch and a short punch that are not the same. One of them does not come from the other. Yes, of course they are two different punches. That was the point. Who ever said anything about “one punch in two ranges”? You just said a “straight punch.” There is more than one punch that goes straight. Hendrik was talking about Wing Chun being a short strike are and CLF a long strike art and using different mechanics. He wasn’t talking about them using “one punch in two ranges.” So I guess I’ve missed your point. 
[QUOTE=KPM;1267055]Now hold Dave. You said “from the long comes the short, without one cannot be the other, they are one and the same.”
I just provided an example of a long punch and a short punch that are not the same. One of them does not come from the other. Yes, of course they are two different punches. That was the point. Who ever said anything about “one punch in two ranges”? You just said a “straight punch.” There is more than one punch that goes straight. Hendrik was talking about Wing Chun being a short strike are and CLF a long strike art and using different mechanics. He wasn’t talking about them using “one punch in two ranges.” So I guess I’ve missed your point. [/QUOTE]
Let’s take a straight punch as an example. Doesn’t matter if it is thrown from far away or in close the same mechanics are involved. The only time this would be contradictory is if for example, we compare two different punches like uppercut and hammer fist to the analogy and try to link them to the same mechanics and path. Same punches from long or short involve same movement assuming that they are launched from roughly the same position. Leverage, force and impact are then determined by acceleration of the movement. We could go further into this but I think that the salient points have been addressed. Do I make sense now?
Highlighted is what I said. You’ve misconstrued it. I clearly said SAME punches from long or short, not two different ones. It doesn’t matter if I throw that straight punch from far away or close in, the same mechanics apply. Long or short makes no difference, from one comes the other. There are only 3 types of human motion, Linear motion (Translation), Angular motion (Rotation) and General motion (Combination of Translation & Rotation). There are no different mechanics involved because of distance. Explosive force or Gathering force are the dynamics employed based upon range but the mechanics will remain the same.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1267062]It doesn’t matter if I throw that straight punch from far away or close in, the same mechanics apply. Long or short makes no difference, from one comes the other. [/QUOTE]
If you coordinate your
a short punch means that you will have less time to to do your coordination. If you are used to throw a long punch that you will have plenty of time to do your 3 external harmonies, you may not be able to coordinate your 3 external harmonies in a short period of time.
A long fist guy may be good in long Jin. He will not be good in short Jin. In order for a long fist guy to learn short Jin, he will need “cross training”.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1267065]If you coordinate your
a short punch means that you will have less time to to do your coordination. If you are used to throw a long punch that you will have plenty of time to do your 3 external harmonies, you may not be able to coordinate your 3 external harmonies in a short period of time.
A long fist guy may be good in long Jin. He will not be good in short Jin. In order for a long fist guy to learn short Jin, he will need “cross training”.[/QUOTE]
Thank you and very well put YKW. It’s just as I said the mechanics of the movement do not change but the dynamics. Your explanation on the use of expelled energy was better detailed. Though I don’t completely agree with the last part, IMO simply shortening up the movement and practice will produce the same result, no need for cross training a punch you already know, not that it would hurt anything to do so.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1267062]Let’s take a straight punch as an example. Doesn’t matter if it is thrown from far away or in close the same mechanics are involved. The only time this would be contradictory is if for example, we compare two different punches like uppercut and hammer fist to the analogy and try to link them to the same mechanics and path. Same punches from long or short involve same movement assuming that they are launched from roughly the same position. Leverage, force and impact are then determined by acceleration of the movement. We could go further into this but I think that the salient points have been addressed. Do I make sense now?
Highlighted is what I said. You’ve misconstrued it. I clearly said SAME punches from long or short, not two different ones. It doesn’t matter if I throw that straight punch from far away or close in, the same mechanics apply. Long or short makes no difference, from one comes the other. There are only 3 types of human motion, Linear motion (Translation), Angular motion (Rotation) and General motion (Combination of Translation & Rotation). There are no different mechanics involved because of distance. Explosive force or Gathering force are the dynamics employed based upon range but the mechanics will remain the same.[/QUOTE]
Ok. Clearly I missed your point. But even if YOU were talking about the SAME punch from two different distances, that doesn’t mean that is what Hendrik was referring to when he talked about WCK being a “short strike art” and CLF being a “long strike art.” Take for example a reverse punch thrown by a Karate practitioner compared to the Pin Sun Da mentioned above. Two long range punches with different mechanics. And practitioners of both Karate and KLPSWCK would argue that they have all of their joints coordinated. But IF you are talking about a punch that uses the same mechanics and joint coordination whether delivered from long or short range, then of course you are right. But that’s kind of using circular logic to say a “long and short are the same, one depends on the other” when by definition you are talking about the same punch from different distances.
[QUOTE=KPM;1267095]Ok. Clearly I missed your point. But even if YOU were talking about the SAME punch from two different distances, that doesn’t mean that is what Hendrik was referring to when he talked about WCK being a “short strike art” and CLF being a “long strike art.” Take for example a reverse punch thrown by a Karate practitioner compared to the Pin Sun Da mentioned above. Two long range punches with different mechanics. And practitioners of both Karate and KLPSWCK would argue that they have all of their joints coordinated. But IF you are talking about a punch that uses the same mechanics and joint coordination whether delivered from long or short range, then of course you are right. But that’s kind of using circular logic to say a “long and short are the same, one depends on the other” when by definition you are talking about the same punch from different distances.[/QUOTE]
The so called short strike power is generally describe as the following in traditional Chinese martial art
Far fist close elbow stick body shoulder strike
Strike cover from far to stick body without changing form ( meaning it can explode where ever it comes to contact even it is intercepted. Very different then ie karate reverse punch that it can get disable or trap before it complete accelerate and hitting target.)
And in order to do this it needs to play with force flow. As in any short strike art, one needs to prepare for off target strike all the time. For no one know exactly what happen with the momentum trend at contact, but based on sensing and adaptive ability.
Why is it emei 12 zhuang and not taiji? Since both look similar and infact share basic mechanism?
The uniqueness is in the progressive sequence pattern of joints handling where taiji don’t do , also , the emei goes further to handle the fingers joints as we Wck label as the biu Jee technology.
The wave like or snake slide like Progressive joints handling develop a different type of force handling capability in term of recieve and issue very different then taiji which uses circular motion and center in Dan dien area. Wck we don’t do that because Wck concept is fighting in indoor center line play within that inch space or angle . So, center at Dan dien with big circular way of handle force joints is not supporting Wck fighting concept. But the wave like support it without have to move much.
Notice, snake slide worm move technology of emei doesn’t means snake or worm animal. But the wave like motion of big joints similar to snake slide and small joints as the worm worm move.
Hope this above I explan it better.
No need to argue, develop it in your snt and you will like it. That is what I mean by turn on the snake engine.
Destructively,
can be used to generate inch power as in biu Jee. Wck biu Jee is not a tensing finger thrusting, but a snake slide, one can see this in the biu Jee set. Or the snake section of SNT .
Constructively,
Can be used as treatment or keeping good blood circulation, joints and muscle conditioning , thus improve or strengthen health .
It is this clear now . We know how it works
I am not trying to convert you, peruse you, or proof you wrong. I am presenting a fact in SNT that if not look at closely will miss a big part. I don’t like to argue and talk more because if one doesn’t get into this level one can’t see. So, it is not about wrong or right those ego stuffs, but, how does it works?
Look at Wck in past 160 years after the ten years battle of Taiping, major good wcners are wipe out.
After that Wck get into a dark age. After that generation , people are trying thier best to survive with whatever they have, they needs to make it works, And these people don’t even have much education compare with today’s high school. They don’t have the education , don’t have the insight, don’t have the time to train , we know most of them doesn’t comprehend well, thus they didn’t fully get the art. And thus, every generation is losing some thing. Until 1970, people starts to rebuilt.
as the generation in the red boat or before uprising, where time is rather peace and they preparing for decade to ear thier uprising. These people are elite , they are the generals in the battle of hundred of generals in that era, as one can see the names listed in the map of Kleber Taiping video.
So. IMHO, we have the luxury of peace and educated and scientific now. We can get back to 1848 and sort things out very quickly.
We do know today we don’t have the advance technology as Wck 1848. Thus, the emei and white crane research are going on in this minute by many wcners around the world. We can evolve further once the basic platform settle to the first order .
Many questions me on why I keep mention yik kam? Because to find out what and how Yik kam do it , is the focus of Cho family old timers,
for example,
one can see the letter of Gm Cheung Wei Bo , the most senior elderly in Cho family family tree , wrote to Late Gm Cho Chin of china decades ago, asking what and how The ancestors train . That letter is open to public about a decade ago.
I am not different then others of the past . Just another guy who trying to find out what is going on walking the same path of the tradition.
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1267099]1.
The so called short strike power is generally describe as the following in traditional Chinese martial art
Far fist close elbow stick body shoulder strike
Strike cover from far to stick body without changing form ( meaning it can explode where ever it comes to contact even it is intercepted. Very different then ie karate reverse punch that it can get disable or trap before it complete accelerate and hitting target.)
And in order to do this it needs to play with force flow.
Why is it emei 12 zhuang and not taiji? Since both look similar and infact share basic mechanism?
The uniqueness is in the progressive sequence and pattern of joints handling where taiji don’t do , also , the emei goes further to handle the fingers joints as we Wck label as the biu Jee technology.
The wave like or snake slide like Progressive joints handling develop a different type of force handling capability in term of recieve and issue very different then taiji which uses circular motion and center in Dan dien area. Wck we don’t do that because Wck concept is fighting in indoor center line play within that inch space or angle . So, center at Dan dien with big circular way of handle force joints is not supporting Wck fighting concept. But the wave like support it without have to move much.
Notice, snake slide worm move technology of emei doesn’t means snake or worm animal. But the wave like motion of big joints similar to snake slide and small joints as the worm worm move.
Hope this above I explan it better.
No need to argue, develop it in your snt and you will like it. That is what I mean by turn on the snake engine.[/QUOTE]
Hendrik I can’t believe this but I again agree. The wave progression that you describe I am familiar with in my own qigong practice. It is similar to Tajiquan but not the same. Taijiquan is generally a much larger circular movement that can contract to a small circle during projection and contact, as compared to the small roll to line projection found in the described qigong method. There is a fair amount of overlay between the two but the “Snake Slide Move” as you describe it, applies this wave that is emplyed by both arts to the small joints as well. So I can see how you would read into the “Small Details” or “Small Ideas”.
I’m glad you have finally come to understand SNT and have found a method that can further explain it for you.
We will not agree on everything bring forth.
I apologize for harrassing you.
I do not agree with you that Emei Shier Zhuang is the mother of WC.
I have never studied Emei Shier Zhuang, but the method you describe was relayed to me from the begining of my WC training and my heritage relays a different history.
Irregardless of our personal opinions or approach we are on the same path headed in the same direction . It doesn’t matter who gets there first, the journey is what is important.
Have a good day and quit spamming the forum! 
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1267099]1.
The so called short strike power is generally describe as the following in traditional Chinese martial art
Far fist close elbow stick body shoulder strike
Strike cover from far to stick body without changing form ( meaning it can explode where ever it comes to contact even it is intercepted. Very different then ie karate reverse punch that it can get disable or trap before it complete accelerate and hitting target.)
And in order to do this it needs to play with force flow. As in any short strike art, one needs to prepare for off target strike all the time. For no one know exactly what happen with the momentum trend at contact, but based on sensing and adaptive ability.
Why is it emei 12 zhuang and not taiji? Since both look similar and infact share basic mechanism?
The uniqueness is in the progressive sequence pattern of joints handling where taiji don’t do , also , the emei goes further to handle the fingers joints as we Wck label as the biu Jee technology.
The wave like or snake slide like Progressive joints handling develop a different type of force handling capability in term of recieve and issue very different then taiji which uses circular motion and center in Dan dien area. Wck we don’t do that because Wck concept is fighting in indoor center line play within that inch space or angle . So, center at Dan dien with big circular way of handle force joints is not supporting Wck fighting concept. But the wave like support it without have to move much.
Notice, snake slide worm move technology of emei doesn’t means snake or worm animal. But the wave like motion of big joints similar to snake slide and small joints as the worm worm move.
Hope this above I explan it better.
No need to argue, develop it in your snt and you will like it. That is what I mean by turn on the snake engine.
Destructively,
can be used to generate inch power as in biu Jee. Wck biu Jee is not a tensing finger thrusting, but a snake slide, one can see this in the biu Jee set. Or the snake section of SNT .
Constructively,
Can be used as treatment or keeping good blood circulation, joints and muscle conditioning , thus improve or strengthen health .
It is this clear now . We know how it works
I am not trying to convert you, peruse you, or proof you wrong. I am presenting a fact in SNT that if not look at closely will miss a big part. I don’t like to argue and talk more because if one doesn’t get into this level one can’t see. So, it is not about wrong or right those ego stuffs, but, how does it works?
Look at Wck in past 160 years after the ten years battle of Taiping, major good wcners are wipe out.
After that Wck get into a dark age. After that generation , people are trying thier best to survive with whatever they have, they needs to make it works, And these people don’t even have much education compare with today’s high school. They don’t have the education , don’t have the insight, don’t have the time to train , we know most of them doesn’t comprehend well, thus they didn’t fully get the art. And thus, every generation is losing some thing. Until 1970, people starts to rebuilt.
as the generation in the red boat or before uprising, where time is rather peace and they preparing for decade to ear thier uprising. These people are elite , they are the generals in the battle of hundred of generals in that era, as one can see the names listed in the map of Kleber Taiping video.
So. IMHO, we have the luxury of peace and educated and scientific now. We can get back to 1848 and sort things out very quickly.
We do know today we don’t have the advance technology as Wck 1848. Thus, the emei and white crane research are going on in this minute by many wcners around the world. We can evolve further once the basic platform settle to the first order .
Many questions me on why I keep mention yik kam? Because to find out what and how Yik kam do it , is the focus of Cho family old timers,
for example,
one can see the letter of Gm Cheung Wei Bo , the most senior elderly in Cho family family tree , wrote to Late Gm Cho Chin of china decades ago, asking what and how The ancestors train . That letter is open to public about a decade ago.
I am not different then others of the past . Just another guy who trying to find out what is going on walking the same path of the tradition.[/QUOTE]
now broken down like this makes it easier to understand where you are coming from.
Great!
I don’t know it all. And not always right!
Without communicate we can’t know .
The patent of the emei is in specific way of the wave making alighnment of : the mind, joints, breathing, and Qi.
As it is in the kuit in the YKSLT
Y6
The arm whip out the horizontal jin
Y7
Pay attention to the finger, craw , and the side under the sleeve .
Y8
Spiral twisting naturally , follow the breathing and the direction of the qi.
Y9
Back of Palm Faces Outward , Intention is Full.
Y10
Rotating palm reeling guarding the heart.
[QUOTE=dlcox;1267102]Hendrik I can’t believe this but I again agree. The wave progression that you describe I am familiar with in my own qigong practice. It is similar to Tajiquan but not the same. Taijiquan is generally a much larger circular movement that can contract to a small circle during projection and contact, as compared to the small roll to line projection found in the described qigong method. There is a fair amount of overlay between the two but the “Snake Slide Move” as you describe it, applies this wave that is emplyed by both arts to the small joints as well. So I can see how you would read into the “Small Details” or “Small Ideas”.
I’m glad you have finally come to understand SNT and have found a method that can further explain it for you.
We will not agree on everything bring forth.
I apologize for harrassing you.
I do not agree with you that Emei Shier Zhuang is the mother of WC.
I have never studied Emei Shier Zhuang, but the method you describe was relayed to me from the begining of my WC training and my heritage relays a different history.
Irregardless of our personal opinions or approach we are on the same path headed in the same direction . It doesn’t matter who gets there first, the journey is what is important.
Have a good day and quit spamming the forum! :)[/QUOTE]
I try to do my best when i have more time and keep improve as I can
[QUOTE=deejaye72;1267103]now broken down like this makes it easier to understand where you are coming from.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1267104]Great!
I don’t know it all. And not always right!
Without communicate we can’t know .
The patent of the emei is in the wave making alight the mind, joints, breathing, and Qi.[/QUOTE]
same here i dont know it all either!
Questions for Hendrik, for clarification…
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1267099]We do know today we don’t have the advance technology as Wck 1848.[/QUOTE]
In your above statement…who is “we”?
When you write “SNT” …does that mean (or are you referring to) the SNT of your wing chun which, if I’m not mistaken, is basically one long connected SNT, CK, BJ form…correct?
Thx.
[QUOTE=HybridWarrior;1267108]1) In your above statement…who is “we”?
Thx.[/QUOTE]
We means many wcners from different lineages have participate in this.
SNT means every lineage SNT, provided it is not evolve too far and the core elements still kept