Thinking outside the box

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Follow this link and read this story…

http://ezine.kungfumagazine.com/ezi...php?article=591

Like you, another guy entitled to HIS OPNION. I don’t exactly have nostalgia for the days where you were under threat of constant attack with weapons, YMMV. Kung fu might be dying, but if so it is because its practitioners won’t adapt it to modern conditions, and avoid looking at what the wider spectrum of martial artists (and everybody else) do.

If you’re concerned about “combat reality”, learn to use guns, tanks, fighter-bombers. Don’t take butterfly swords to a car bombing.

If environmental conditions change, species have three choices: adapt, migrate, or die. Until space travel and terraforming become commonplace, KF is stuck with options 1 or 3.

WC itself is an eclectic system (unless you do a pre Wong Wa Bo lineage that has no 6.5 point pole, and even then it was a supposed distilllation of Shaolin systems, according to some histories). Talk of requirements for systemic purity is based on marketing, not history.

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[B]http://wingchunkungfu.cn/2004mb/2084.htm[/B]

Case and point. I guess Duncan Leung doesn’t see the big picture either and should take up grappling also…He obviously doesn’t know anything about WC (erupting with sarcasim).

The truth of the matter is that because you practice the way you do then you believe the way you practice is the right way. More power to you, but don’t try to discredit my beliefs and impose your way on me simply because you train the way you do.

What you want out of martial arts is up to you to get. What I want out of martial arts I will also persue. But our goals are different so our path to acheive these goals are also going to be different. No one is absolutely right or wrong-just different.

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I agree Airdrawndagger, I’ve been preaching this to these guys for a year now, but it’s all on deaf ears, so don’t bother. They believe WC is in incomplete, and is in need of outside sources and no matter what you say to them to disclaim this, they will come back with some sorry excuse, so save your energy bro. Good Post and I agree 100%…

James

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Analogy: If my job is to cut down trees than it would be in my best interest to use a gas powered saw. I could probably use a machette, an axe, or a knife but the job wouldn’t get done as quickly and efficiently as using the gas powered saw.

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I know we have similar views about Wing Chun James and Im glad to see you chime in. Thanks. My thread started out witht the best intentions and baM! Im back to defending Wing Chun on a Wing Chun forum… as usual…sad really.

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Well the forum’s not without value then. ADD and James both made a new friend.

Everybody say “AAHHHH…”

Is Wing Chun the gas-powered saw? or is Wing Chun the plastic knife you get with the airline food? How many dozen brands of gas-powered saw are there in the world today? Some from China, some from Brazil in all probability.

I guess Duncan Leung doesn’t see the big picture either

The big picture? We’re discussing details of part of a fairly small picture, which you seem to be implying is the only picture worth looking at, when all around you are other magnificent works of art.

I never said anything about Duncan Leung. You’re trying to put words in my mouth now and losing your temper. I’m sure DL is a nice man and good at what he does. Just like Rickson Gracie, whose opinions no doubt differ. I’m sure each would respect the other’s POV.

Why does Wing Chun need defending? Why are you the right guy for the job?

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What you want out of martial arts is up to you to get. What I want out of martial arts I will also persue. But our goals are different so our path to acheive these goals are also going to be different. No one is absolutely right or wrong-just different.
Airdrawndagger,
Well said as sihing states that line was drawn around here a while ago and there is no sign of it disappearing any time soon. There are those that understand Wing Chun to be complete and those that disagree. There is no substitute for experience so arguing the point on an internet forum is pointless.

48

Interesting analogy. I’d agree with it (provided I’m following your reasoning correctly).

But I think I was more making the point that since we are all humans with the same basic physiological limitations, it would be difficult to discover something radically different to other arts deep within the WC forms.

My thread started out witht the best intentions and baM! Im back to defending Wing Chun on a Wing Chun forum… as usual…sad really.

And a bit unnecessary since we all do WC. If anything it’s just YOUR perception that you are “defending WC” as if the art was being attacked. But no one’s renouncing WC here.

49

[i]
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;

Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,

And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.

I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

– “The Road Not Taken” excerpted from the book: Mountain Interval, by Robert Frost, 1920[/i]

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Because my thread was highjacked and has gone from looking deeper into our beautiful system for answers- to how our system is incomplete. Why is it that it always turns out this way? Why can we not discuss a topic without trying to derail it?

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I wan’t really referring to you as much as the others. In fact, I think you have made some good points.

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Instead of going the usual route into personalities (ie.- “Duncan Leung, for example, was terrrific in his day - do you doubt that”?..“Do you not believe him when he says the system is complete?”…to which someone could answer…“Yes, but did you see what happened to one of Duncan’s wing chun students who entered one of the earliest UFC events?”)…

and then we could use the “doubting” of Wong Shun Leung’s abilities and beliefs about the completeness of wing chun…and then William Cheung, and so on.

Instead of going that route - let’s go this way, Airdrawndagger:

Tell us what in your opinion is the wing chun answer to a single leg takedown? Or a double leg takedown?..When it’s done from two feet away - after the “grappler” set it up with a punch, or a feint punch, or a kick - to gain some distance?

And the same with an upper body clinch, that transitions into a front bearhug takedown, or a suplex, or into a hip throw?

And once on the ground - what is the wing chun answer to the cross chest position hold down - into a top wristlock or double wristlock?

Or the wing chun answer to the full mount (top saddle position) into a choke or ground and pound?

And the wing chun answer to the up-on-his-toes footwork, broken rhythms, boob and weave jabs, hooks, crosses, etc. of a Muhummad Ali/Sugar Ray Leonard style of boxing…or the Marciano or Tyson peek-a-boo hold-the-hands-back-and-don’t-lead-with-jabs style of boxing?

Let’s go that route, shall we?

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Why is it that you feel WC is incomplete and Duncan Leung does not?

I can’t speak for DL. Why do other high level practitioners like Rick Spain and Victor feel a need to crosstrain? In any case this is a poor argument … Appeal to authority is a well known logical fallacy, generally dragged out when people cannot support their POV logically.

We are not discussing Rickson Gracie or BJJ or TKD or Karate.

This is not “your” discussion or “your” thread or “your” forum. Discussion goes where it goes. Don’t like it? Start your own forum.

The thread’s title is Thinking outside the box, so I think the wide range of subject matter is to be expected.

WC should be able to deal with the combat situations Victor mentioned. Dig deep, grasshopper, show us the treasures hidden down there.

54

Essentially the tennis pro is doing the same techniques as the amateur player. So how are WC answers going to be different and better compared to answers in another system?

And if they are not different and better, why is it important to “stick within the WC system”?

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These examples are set up so that we can discuss move for move til we are blue in the face. What benifits are there to trying to match a move for a move. Wing Chun is spontanious. 2 fighters can perform the same “moves” 100 different ways becuase humans are not robots and different factors such as the environmnet, lighting, physical ability, mindset, fear , determination, speed, accuracy and power also play a role in determining an outcome.

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“What would happen? What ‘move’ would I do? Come now, wing chun is not compromised of : If he does A, B,C then you do D moves. Each manuver is governed by that particular moment when it happens.” (ADD)

***This is a FALLACY, my friend. Like any other system of fighting, wing chun needs certain responses to certain situations if it is to be successful. If someone throws a backfist, my response should be bil or tan, for example. A hook requires a bil/lop kind of response (more often than not)…a straight punch requires pak, or perhaps bong, and so on.

Which is not to say that these are the only possible responses - but they are clearly better choices than other moves…ie.- I wouldn’t do garn sao against a high hook punch, now would I?

You’re avoiding the issues, ADD.

…

“The most rudimentary responses would be based on striking the closest available target and not being hit.” (ADD)

***One can’t SIMPLY try to strike the head of a grappler shooting in with a single leg takedown, to use just one example - just because that’s the closest “target”. That’s a nice formula for landing on your back with him on top of you.

Why? Because his forward momentum is so strong, and so fast, and so pinpointed to go low and THROUGH you, and because his entire body is involved in the process of taking you down (his hips, both legs, both arms, his head, his lead shoulder, etc.)…and because good grapplers know how to hide their most vulnerable head and face targets while coming in, and because they “turn the corner” as they start to complete the move (change their direction slightly)…

…that the odds of scoring a “knockout blow” in the little time you have against this kind of attack are slim to none.

I just don’t find your arguments convincing, ADD.

57

What benifits are there to trying to match a move for a move.

So you don’t do any two person drills then? If they have no benefit, then you don’t practice them?

Wing Chun is spontanious.

Like every other martial art, or competitive sport, performed at all but the lowest levels of skill. Spontaneous application of sound techniques makes for top performance, IMO. If you can’t articulate how to deal with an attack when you have time to think about it, you sure as hell won’t be able to do it spontaneously (your word, though spelt incorrectly).

2 fighters can perform the same “moves” 100 different ways becuase humans are not robots and different factors such as the environmnet, lighting, physical ability, mindset, fear , determination, speed, accuracy and power also play a role in determining an outcome.

So technique is unimportant, and it’s all up to factors unrelated to technique? Or just luck?

Just like your gas-powered saw is my butter knife, those jumbo jets of yours look a lot like houseflies from down here. Mildly annoying, but ultimately irrelevant.

58

I dont find your examples to be specific enough, Victor.

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“I get annoyed with the tit or tac kind of discussions because they are not specific enough.” (ADD)

***WON’T even bother telling you what I think about your “annoyance”, as it will invite more “personality” issues (which is simply another avoidance tactic) and less actual evidence to back up your views.

Very strange response, ADD…as I was VERY specific about how to handle various types of punches - as a means to explain how WRONG you are about wing chun somehow being the exception to the “if he does A,B,C, or D…my response should be this, that, or the other move” gameplan…(with spontaneity always being part of the “plan” as a well). And very specific about the grappler’s attack as well.

…

"Are we talking about a fight? A UFC match? A sparring competition? Just two buds putting on pads and going at it? " (ADD)

***I ALWAYS talk about reality streetfight scenarios (not interested in debating about sparring matches that use “rules” - although UFC and Pride, to their credit, do come closer to reality fighting than any other venues).

…

"…the nature of grappling i.e. 'forward momentum is so strong, and so fast, and so pinpointed to go low and THROUGH you, and because his entire body is involved in the process of taking you down (his hips, both legs, both arms, his head, his lead shoulder, etc.)…, I would

  1. Be very mobile
  2. Use alot of shifting, blocking, sticking, and striking simutaniously.
  3. Attack his set up and crowd him with attacks of my own." (ADD)

***OKAY…so you’re mobile, you shift alot, and you try to attack and crowd him - with blocking, sticking, ans simultaneous striking…great…but trying to crowd him and hit him is exactly what he wants you to do - because HE DOES HAVE TO GRAB YOU in order to grapple you (ie.- take you down)…which means he wants you to come close to him…

and when he shoots for your leg from 2-3 feet away (or perhaps closer than that)…as you try to “stick” and “hit”…

what makes you think that these hits (of which there may only be one - not multiple hits)…will stop him BEFORE he grabs you?

Have you tried this against a good grappler?

…

"I know that:

  1. He needs to grab me to control me." (ADD)

***ALREADY addressed that.

…

“If this was a street fight then my attacks will be more agressive. Chops, eye gauges, kicks to the joints, etc…” (ADD)

***AND so will the grappler and MMA type…he’ll ge doing all of the above as well.
But it’s the one with the CONTROL over their opponent that is more likely to be successful with such moves. (And by the way—trying to kick the knee joints of a grappler going for a single leg takedown is a disaster waiting to happen - as you are “giving” him the leg he wants to grab).

And you still haven’t been convincing as to how you would control him using JUST wing chun.

60

I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.

The difference being that you had much less chance of being able to deal with a grappler or fight on the ground.

Is “the road less travelled” in this case sticking to the WC rut or taking the scenic route through several MA?