Thinking outside the box

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Youve conviced me, Ima be a grappler now. Its the best martial art in the world. Every wing chun man and woman better trade in there sashes for a pair of tights. There simply is no stopping a grappler when he is going for a double leg take down. :stuck_out_tongue:

Sorry, but you really haven’t proved anything to me about grappling other than the fact that you sweat it so everyone else should sweat it too.

Ive never been able to understand why people want everybody else to except what they do as being the right way when they don’t even know what the right way is…

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  1. Be very mobile
  1. Use alot of shifting, blocking, sticking, and striking simutaniously.
  2. Attack his set up and crowd him with attacks of my own.

One thing I tend to notice is that these ideas are pretty much the same as a wrestling defence to takedowns (aside from the striking). So it’s not like WC is incongruent with wrestling in this case.

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You missed the playfulness and double-entendre of the poem. That would have made all the difference here, too. :wink:

Mr. Frost was quite the plum pixie. It is possible he would have enjoyed your spine stiffening from the trap he wrote. :slight_smile:

[BTW, almost by definition, a rut is a well travelled road. Also, it seems as if the scenic route of which you speak has been awfully crowded with tourists and lookie-loos for quite some time now. ;)]

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I would like to think that a wrestler would be less mobile and more excepting to being grappled because that is their comfortzone. Going to the ground is what a wrestler wants to do. I would prefer to stay on my feet.

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Edmund: Not incongruent at all - just incomplete. Because when you add sprawls, crossfaces, and other wrestling takedown defenses into the mix - along with the wing chun sticking, angling, and striking while blocking moves - now you’ve definitely got something EXTRA to work with against the typical wrestler/grappler takedown attacks.

But as to why Airdrawndagger would like to think that “grapplers are less mobile” than wing chun fighters - there’s really no cause for him to be thinking that…as some grapplers are lightening quick.

Really tends to beg the question again: Has he ever used wing chun exclusively against a quality grappler in a real fight/rough sparring match…successfully?

I would tend to suspect that there answer is “no”.

Wing Chun is a beautiful thing - and can definitely be used to do some serious damage in the RANGE that it excels in (ie.-close quarter, limb-to-limb contact standup striking/kicking range)…but it does not have all the necessary answers in other ranges.

That’s my whole point.

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WRONG, especially on the last paragraph. WC has a complete arsenal against ALL types of attacks, just because some here cannot apply it or do not understand it doesn’t mean it isn’t there. You all talk like grappler attacks are unbeatable or uncounterable. It’s all about mobility. Yeah of course if you present a stationary or close to stationary target you will be taken to the ground, that is given. But when the target is moving and in a UNORTHODOX way, then you have something. The basic WC stance (Neutral Stance) alone makes it more difficult to grapple with, because the grappler has to get in closer to grab any leg or body part, therefore if one is using this stance and gets taken down then it is THEIR fault, not the systems, so therefore more practice and understanding is required. I don’t have time right now to go into everything that can be done against the grappler. Not that there are every any 100% guarantee’s, as no one can claim that, us nor the grapplers, but there definetly are effective ways to deal with them using WC, especially when they no nothing about you, whereas in competitions this is never the case.

James

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So Victor, when was the last time you got into a fight with a grappler? By the way you talk you must have racked up several fights to share with all of us. Sparring doesn’t count because according to you “***I ALWAYS talk about reality streetfight scenarios (not interested in debating about sparring matches that use “rules” - although UFC and Pride, to their credit, do come closer to reality fighting than any other venues).”
SO I WILL RE-ASK MY QUESTION: HOW MANY REAL FIGHTS HAVE YOU BEEN IN WITH A GRAPPLER???

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“WC has a complete arsenal against ALL types of attacks, just because some here cannot apply it or do not understand it doesn’t mean it isn’t there.” (James)

***SPOKEN by someone who has how much experience actually fighting/sparring against good grapplers?

Oh, I see…little to no experience.

Okay. Yeah…right! :rolleyes:

…

Airdrawndagger:

I DID NOT misquote you - for starters…it’s YOU who’s playing games with words.

Once had a real streetfight that resulted in a broken nose for my opponent, very badly gouged eyes for me - and an arrest for assault…as he was trying to build a civil lawsuit for $1,000,000. against my employer. I was the manager of an Aamco Transmission Repair shop at the time - and the fight took place in front of the building.

Happened during my earlier days in wing chun (I was still a student of Moy Yat)…I had already broken his nose (as I found out later) with some chain punching type of attacks when he faked a high haymaker sucker punch and shot in for a double leg takedown (he was a semi-pro football player, as it turns out, and knew how to take people to the ground much the same way that wrestlers do)…and then he mounted me and proceeded to gouge my eyes very badly.

Luckily for me, I had some catch wrestling experience for a few years (before I began wing chun) and managed to escape his mount and got back to my feet - using a wrestling escape.

The man was was about an inch taller than me but probably outweighed me by at least 80 lbs. (he was well over 200 lbs.) and in those days I weighed about 140 soaking wet. (I weigh 170 now).

He then literally walked away and called the police to have me arrested (the charges were thrown out when it came to trial, as he was so much bigger than me, and I had never been arrested before, and by a wild stroke of coincidence - the lawyer my boss hired to defend me had once DEFENDED THIS GUY on a charge of him attacking a court reporter during one of HIS trials…(the guy had actually once served jail time for burglary).

And as far as sparring against grapplers - including in recent years - have done it many times.

But the point is…the man already saw the close infight short range punching game I was playing and survived the first flurry of attacks by me, had tried to come back with a haymaker round punch of his own that resulted in another straight punch landing on his face…and then did the fake punch and down under for the takedown routine - which totally circumvented the wing chun mode (and way of thinking that I was in)…and he got the takedown and the mount.

NOW…WISEA55…how about finally answering the question:

Have you ever fought (or even sparred) against a good grappler and used wing chun exclusively and successfully???

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I agree with ADD… a grappler will normally be less mobile than a striker. Strikers can exploit this to their advantage, but most don’t really know how to do so (as ADD demonstrates in his response to the theoretical “grappler attack” scenario).

I also partially agree with James. The neutral stance (or square stance in wrestling terms) is the best defensive posture for takedown prevention. However, it also limits your ability to strike effectively, makes it easier for your opponent to strike you, and is renderered pretty much inneffective if you use it with your toes pointed inward and your upper body erect. You will see a lot of wrestlers use a square stance in wrestling competitions, but they pretty much throw it out when they enter MMA competitions.

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[B]Successfully sometimes… Yes, I have fought some grapplers, some of which were WELL versed in Wing Chun as well, in fact there form of wing chun was a little different than what I have been used too. I had an incounter that took place between me and 3 musclar dudes. The biggest one approached me and I fired off a straight punch tthat partially landed because he started to duck and go for A Double Leg takedown as it would ironically seem. He managed to grab me and I gave into his energy and we began to go backwards. I was about to do a reverse throw when the two others jumped on top of me as we fell to the ground. They were holding me down. NOT TO MUCH YOU CAN DO in a situation like that. I was blocking a lot of shots, kicks and such when my brother rushed them and knocked them off. I managed to punch one of them pretty hard then they got a bat and hit my brother in the head which messed him up bad. We left, the cops came but nothing became of the situation. In my mind I definetly lost because I allowed him to get close enough to grab me. I know SEVERAL ways to avoid a grapple of that nature but adrenaline took over an I was unable to control my rage which is why I “lost”.
I am glad It happened because I feel that I have learned volumes because of It. I know that I am not the best but I know myself and I know how to learn from my mistakes. I will NEVER allow someone to get that close to me to be able to grab me without PAYING severly for trying.
There is a guy who trains with us now and has about 7 years WC exp. and grappling exp. we have experimented alot and he can transition from chi sao to grappling moves pretty good. I try to feel when he will attempt a move and try to anit grapple his manuvers. Sometimes he gets me, sometimes he does not, but we do not go “ALL OUT” so I cannot say what kind of outcome we would have. I can say that I am VERY aware of the strengths of grapplers and make it a point to study there style so I can educate myself as to what to expect.

Some seak answers out side the system and I do not fault them for that. That is there way. I follow my own path and I don’t really care who believes me or not, I know what im doing is what is best for me. If I lose a fight then it is my fault because of something I have done wrong and not because the system is lacking or incomplete. I will always believe that Wing Chun will provide the answers to your questions if you truely search yourself and the wing chun you possess.

My intentions are good. My articulation in typing are nominal. But, what I do value are opinions that are true to heart that only serve to provide me with ideas to further my studies. We all can learn from one another so instead of trying to prove each other wrong, lets respect each others opinions and back grounds and agree that we probably do not have all the answers and we might be able to learn from one another if we open our hearts as well as our minds. :cool: [/B]

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ADD:

What can I say? I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree.

But I don’t believe that it’s ALWAYS possible to keep someone form grabbing you by just using wing chun principles, strategy, and techniques. Is it possible to do quite a bit, in this regard, using wing chun sensitivity training and so forth? Yes.

But will it always be successful? I really don’t think so. (And I’m not talking about sneak attacks as just being the exception to the rule, either).

And this issue becomes more and more clear as each day passes by, imo…because MMA fighters (especially) are getting better and better as STRIKERS (and kickers)…and therefore can now play a better-than-ever-before game of bridging the gap to the grab and takedown grappling range…by using more and more sophisticated setups (ie.- explosive footwork, kicks, striking, fakes, etc.)

Try this one on for size: picture the day when a really good up-on-his-toes boxer type who can hook off the lead jab with the best of them…now trains to follow that with a clinch…a grapplers clinch (not a boxer’s clinch)…and then he puts on his wrestling hat and does a Greco-Roman backdrop or some other takedown.

In order to stop this type of attack and “grab”…one’s reflexes and chi sao sensitivity would have to be off the charts, imo. Literally picture perfect 100% of the time. Who could honestly count on that?

No…I believe crosstraining is the answer.

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No…I believe crosstraining is the answer. – Ultimatewingchun

Parlati Sifu,

  1. Have you asked the questions you posed to ADD to Grand Master Cheung? 2. What is Grand Master Cheung’s position on the subject of TWC being complete?
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You missed the playfulness and double-entendre of the poem.

I studied this poem in high school.

Try to be a bit less patronising in future, please.

Robert Frost was crap at WC.

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What is Grand Master Cheung’s position on the subject of TWC being complete?

GM Cheung is I think pretty happy with TWC the way it is. Victor has his own opinions as how best to train, and his ability to practise them is a credit to his teacher’s flexibility of mind.

At a seminar I attended with Gm Cheung - mind you, this was about ten years ago - he demonstrated a couple of responses to the shoot - one was a pak sao while angling off to the side, which has some similarities to a wrestling counter to the EARLY stages of the shot, except the wrestler would use a forearm and look to control the head. This will only work in the early stages, while the level change is still happening, unless the shot is really poor. After that, you need to either use your hip to block, and/or sprawl.

He also showed a type of sprawl against a shooter, but wrapped his arms around the guy’s torso from above, which I now know to be a basic error as it sets the shooter up for an elbow shuck or sitout from which he can get the top position and the defender’s back.

This was a long time ago, and I would expect GM Cheung as the consummate martial artist he is to have learned more about these types of attack and defense against them, as no doubt most of us have in that period of recent history.

Victor has done that too, by learning catch wrestling.

Hopefully Tony, you too are allowed to have your own opinions and experiment with your own strategies in HFY, rather than just thinking the way Messrs Meng and Gee tell you to.

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Every wing chun man and woman better trade in there sashes for a pair of tights.

I actually wear a gi, or board shorts and a rash guard, but if you really want those tights, far be it from me to stand in your way.

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GM Cheung is I think pretty happy with TWC the way it is. Victor has his own opinions as how best to train, and his ability to practise them is a credit to his teacher’s flexibility of mind.
As a TWC practitioner yourself your opinion could differ from Victor’s which is precisely why the question ask for facts derived from GM Cheung and not another opinion. “I think pretty happy with TWC the way it is” doesn’t address the question of whether GM Cheung himself describes the system as either complete or incomplete.

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If you want to be a really pedantic ****, Tony, you probably should ask GM Cheung himself as Victor’s relating of his opinion would be hearsay.

I’m relating my impressions, based on six years of training in his organisation, with, at the time one of his longest serving students, with whom I gained my instructor qualification while still a member of the WWCKFA, and I gave my qualifications based on it being nearly a decade ago.

I’d hope in that time I’d have got some idea.

I thought it might be somewhat illuminating, I didn’t realise you were asking for evidence admissable in a court of law.

why the question ask for facts derived from GM Cheung and not another opinion

Why do you need to know this?

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Tony, you probably should ask GM Cheung himself as Victor’s relating of his opinion would be hearsay.
Do you have the email address?
I thought it might be somewhat illuminating, I didn’t realise you were asking for evidence admissable in a court of law.
Not bringing Victor’s or your own experience in to question just trying to balance them against those of the Grand Master of the System.

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I got really bored about halfway through reading this thread, but guys, i think some of you seriously need to just get over it. Wing chun, wrestling, boxing, mma what’s the big deal??? We’re all different probably best to leave it at that.

What i think about this whole deal is that wing chun IS a complete system whatever that means. I don’t know that there’s much in the way of ground fighting i’ve only been showed a couple of things and that was more of a “street” approach than say judo or sub wrestling so it’s apples and oranges. But what i have found is that all the principles and general understanding of body mechanics geometry pressure sensetivity definitely does apply on the ground. Same with wrestling stand up. I think wing chun is basically more stand up wrestling than striking anyway, that’s what chi sao looks like anyway.

So basically if youre sh*T hot at wing chun you should be able to fight pretty much anyone but you probably need the experience of other martial arts to get there, that’s why i do mma as well which is basically thai boxing, greco wrestling and judo/sub wrestling. Definitely a good wing chun fighter should be able to handle a good muay thai fighter or boxer, only thing is does the wing chun fighter train to that level, or do they just train with fake attacks? In wing chun class i know if anyone who hasn’t boxed before attacks me with boxing attacks i can deal with it ok, not get hit, and beat them, but… i’d never dare even try it at the moment with the muay thai guys i train with but that’s not because wing chun sucks, it’s because i suck at wing chun and they’re all f-ing good.

So yeah i think you should look outside the box even though i dont think there really is a box in wing chun. So, just get over it guys, why do you care what someone else chooses to do with their free time?

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***EXCELLENT post by Anerlich. Yes, I remember those two shoot defenses very well that GM Cheung taught about 10 years ago. And Andrew’s analysis about the move wherein “a type of sprawl was used against a shooter, by wrapping his arms around the shooter’s torso from above”…was quite accurate - including the weakness inherent in the move.

But consider this, Tony (canglong): even though I’m sure William Cheung wouldn’t openly admit it…Why do you think he was actually teaching such a move (since it’s clearly not wing chun) - if he really thought the TWC system was complete?

But as Andrew alluded to, William Cheung does have something of an open mind about working out moves into fighting scenarios that don’t necessarily come from wing chun. He simply coopts a few things here and there without actually labeling it for what it really is (ie.- the above technique described was clearly a grappling/wrestling move). :rolleyes: