Thats great that he has made contributions in the past but he is clearly trolling my thread…
I dont know why everyone is getting so bent on chain punches… they were merely an EXAMPLE of how a tech. taken from the forms is made litteral in fighting. My point is that the forms are a guide to follow and although you can litterally chain punch your way to victory, looking deeper into the system you’ll find other uses of the straight punch other than chain punches.
The same can be said with a merid of other techs. within the system.
The bong sau is another great example.
In the first form you perform the bong in a neutral horse stance, on the center line.
In fighting application you perform it very differently- shifting, redirecting, raising it above centerline, below center line, footwork plays a big role, etc…
Because the form is the way it is much is left up to the practicioner to interprit the meanings of the movements within the form other than what is shown.
So I was asking anyone if they have found any nifty discoveries within the system that they have found to be useful in either fighting or practice.
The statement I took issue with originally was this old, derivative, unoriginal, piece of pomposity:
seek to find answers from outside influences. i.e.-- other systems of martial arts simply because they did not dig deep enough
I seem to have touched the nerve I wanted to, and the argument’s now got to an intellectual level so lame that there is little point continuing. SO:
Because the form is the way it is much is left up to the practicioner to interprit the meanings of the movements within the form other than what is shown.
My Sifu’s opinion is that the forms are designed to be tinkered with, and modified. I do them all sorts of different ways, add and replace movements and sections, etc. etc. All TCMA forms are pretty much the same with multiple applications. They are handbooks, not stone tablets from some Lost Ark.
So I was asking anyone if they have found any nifty discoveries within the system that they have found to be useful in either fighting or practice.
Yes. I think real discoveries about the system come when one dispenses with WC tunnel vision and looks for connection with apparently unrelated disciplines. Not just digging deeper but prospecting in new areas. Lateral thinking - surely no one has a problem with that?
FWIW I wrote an article for Rene’s site on my opinion of “Secrets” some time ago:
Well you stated the chain punch is the the last ditch resort for WC people with nothing left which seems to be quite the opposite to the description that I gave. You also stated it was an all out attack, something you wouldn’t open with and so forth.
I can only go off what you present and my impression was that you gave the wrong application and concept of chain punching to start with. If it was obvious, you should have stated it yourself and you shouldn’t be suprised if someone is going to point it out when you don’t!
In the first form you perform the bong in a neutral horse stance, on the center line.
In fighting application you perform it very differently- shifting, redirecting, raising it above centerline, below center line, footwork plays a big role, etc…
Most of the “fighting application” stuff here is worked in greater detail in the second form, and the dummy.
No one ever said you couldn’t do the first form in different stances, and experimenting with footwork, etc.
My academy has largely dispensed with the neutral stance in forms and applications, mainly because nobody moves or fights like that.
Aside from the most of the other bull**** you wrere talking this part I find interesting. This is a great example. Thanks for the info. What other modifications have you made that helped more in regards to fighting application than what others might considered “standard” means of practice?
Those were merely examples NOT to be taken litterally, but to help support my initial topic. Sorry for this miscomunication. Do you now see where im going with this thread?
What other modifications have you made that helped more in regards to fighting application than what others might considered “standard” means of practice?
It’s about your turn to represent.
As, unlike me, you haven’t been wasting time on BJJ or similar deluded diversions because you’ve been staying constant and true with the system, you should have a plethora of insights that us heretics will have missed.
There’s an old saying, and I paraphrase: “Every Wing Chun practitioner thinks that 90% of WC practitioners are spoonfed unthinking chain punchers, but that they belong to the other 10%”. Your posts smack more than a little of this attitude, and as such snide comebacks are to be expected. You don’t get to the top of the heap by pushing others down, you don’t gain kudos by creating straw men who just chain punch and do nothing else.
BTW, that orange type on yellow background is difficult to read.
So this ain’t all criticism: there’s much to be gained by looking at principles of modern sport speed, and skill training, to improve one’s performance of WC. Do you agree, and whatever the answer, why? If you agree, how do you implement this?
I don’t know how you perform the bong sau in the FIRST FORM, but we line up our wrist bone with the center of our body, lined up slightly higher than our sternum. Is this how you perform your bong sau in the first form? If you do not than I understand the confusion, but as far as I have seen most of the different lineages perform the bong in this mannor so I assumed that there would be no differences in intereptation of how it is performed. If yes then do you see a difference as to why in sparring it is not uncommon to adjust your bong sau differently then what is presented in the form?
If so then this is merely an example as to the difference between the form and application.
Sorry man, you lost me at modern sport speed…but as far as skill training well that can mean anything you do in wing chun so yes there is tons to learn there. I look at the principles of what I am being taught and try to find more than what meets the eye as far as the meaning behind the drill or lesson. You can always expand on a drill or lesson by going home and meditating on what the meaning of the drill is and how you can apply t he principles within the drill to other facets of training.
I was attacking, not defending. Well, maybe counterattacking.
you lost me at modern sport speed
You would agree perception and movement speed will assist your WC performance? The fastest humans on the planet are sprinters, are they not? Is there anything A WCer could learn by following the ways they train? For example with resistance training (running with weighted vests, sleds, etc.) or overspeed (google is your friend if you don’t know what this is). Is there a way to employ such principles to improve your performance from a WC perspective?
Would you like to become faster? Why not?
As for drills, drills should have a specific purpose. The drill itself should not become the purpose. To quote Hock Hochheim, “we want to become fighting experts, not drill experts.” Is there a time during development of a student when a specific drill may become a hindrance rather than a help?
Well as it was presented to me in the first form, the height of the bong sao is relative to the height of the opponent. Because their fully extended punch forms a line from their shoulder towards your head, if they can’t see your shoulder due to your bong sao their punch can’t reach your head (basic geometry).
In Chum Kiu there are bong sao’s of various heights depending on the application.
Other lineages such as Pan Nam’s, performs 3 different heights of bong saos in the first form. The wooden dummy also has bong saos of various heights.
So from my perspective, I don’t see where the forms are presenting things one way and the applications are presenting it another. There should be a certain degree of consistency between the two.
Having said that, performing like it’s done in the form for the sake of “looking correct” is not a goal either. I wouldn’t call it a case of the practitioner needing to interpret the form for “hidden” meaning. I would call it applying the techniques as they are conceptually described instead of just mirroring the visual shape.
Thats great! I see the forms as such 2. It took a while to see other applications with in the forms and WC in general. I am still a beginer in this regard but I always try to look at training as a constant exploration of self realization. How long have you been training and who is your sifu/lineage?
I think there is a great deal to learn from a sprinter but if you use this sort of philosopy then you could probably look at all sorts of different sports and take specific drills from them to assist with speed, conditioning, hand eye coordination, and focus.
For example if you take a sport such as free diving and look at how they handle breathing and controling there heart rate through focus and meditation, you can apply these principles to Wing Chun too.
Exactly, but here were you saying looking outside of WC is a waste of valuable time.
Do you practice spinting or something that you feel suppliments your training? You are probably going to say BJJ, right?
Trail, stair and track work, pyometrics, skipping, etc. I was alluding more to increasing the speed of punches or kicks through the use of resistance bands, for either resistance training for more explosiveness. or overspeed training.
BJJ is not a supplement to my training. It is an integral part. It addresses combat strategies and situations that WC does not cover well or at all.
If you dug deep enough, you could probably make WC work in a restraint or groundfighting situation, but that would be pretty dumb if the Brazilians and other grapplers already had four lane highway tunnels open which led to the same destination.
“Exactly, but here were you saying looking outside of WC is a waste of valuable time.”
Never in my posts did I say that looking outside of WC was a waste of time. What I did say is: “This system has so many “hidden” secrets to it that many do not find/discover them and will result in a lack of understanding and poor understanding of the system or seek to find answers from outside influences. i.e.-- other systems of martial arts simply because they did not dig deep enough.”
"BJJ is not a supplement to my training. It is an integral part. It addresses combat strategies and situations that WC does not cover well or at all.
If you dug deep enough, you could probably make WC work in a restraint or groundfighting situation, but that would be pretty dumb if the Brazilians and other grapplers already had four lane highway tunnels open which led to the same destination."
And this is where we differ from POV’s, and is why I have written this thread to begin with. I applaud anyone who wishes to cross-train, but I feel it is unnessarry to do so especially when you are practicing WC. IN MY OPINION it is a complete system and IN MY OPINION many people do not dig deep enough into the system to find the answer. In fact, I believe that this stretches past wing chun and reaches all of Kung fu as a whole. Kung fu is dying more and more as the years go by because of a general lack of attention to the arts.
"I applaud anyone who wishes to cross-train, but I feel it is unnessarry to do so especially when you are practicing WC. IN MY OPINION it is a complete system and IN MY OPINION many people do not dig deep enough into the system to find the answer. " (Airdrawndagger)
***And this is where I will line up squarely with Anerlich, as there is NO EVIDENCE anywhere, at any time, in any place…that substantiates the claim that wing chun is a complete system (ie.- not only the claim that it has all the defenses and counters one could ever need against a grappler - in terms of stopping takedowns, fighting in the very close clinch, and when on the ground)…
but neither does wing chun have all the answers EVEN TO A STANDUP FIGHT against a skilled opponent (ie.- quality boxers, kickboxers, and Thai boxers) who can keep the fight at the longer range wherein the wing chun contact/deflection/trapping game is basically useless.
Hint: Mixing boxing with wing chun to bridge such gaps (along with certain aspects of very mobile footwork and longer range entry kicking techniques) can go a LONG WAY toward making wing chun highly functional in today’s world…which it clearly is NOT in it’s more conventional state.
Have you ever fought/sparred a really good boxer or grappler using JUST wing chun - with success?
