KWJ
>>And no you cant bil-sao a tight hook…those of us who tried against some one really thring to hook, know this (ow!) lol.<<
You said a mouthful. From what I know the only hook is a tight hook.
Phil- you seem to be shifting the context. You began with the topic of dealing with boxers. JHR and 53 blocks is a somewhat different topic.
So what is your exact question or point- so we dont end up all over the place.
I didnt grow up in NY but I am not exactlya suburb kind of guy either.
I know about Bernard Hopkins- his elbows and shoulders and Tyson’s arm break attempt on the White buffalo.
The pushing off the wall and punching is a known street technique too. Ditto for one/two finger punches.The tight hook is more boxing talk- then there are so called dirty versions of boxing…
so what are we exactly talking about on this thread?
Old wc was not designed for the ring either or the octagon.
yuanfen
“For those interested I would like to start a thread on the technical aspects of WC, (whatever that means). . . . . . . .” My first question is training how to deal with a boxer’s constant bobbing, weaving . . . ."
If you look this is how I started the thread. 52 blocks and JHR uses tight hooks and uppercuts, jab bobbing and weaving just like a boxer. The only difference is there’s no rules. The reason I brought the 52 blocks into it was because I was PM’ed by someone who thought my boxing question was about fighting in the ring or octagon which it wasn’t. I had planned on discussing all aspects of fighting against all types of styles. I was heading for CLF next since it seems as there are lots of people involved in gangs that do CLF. Most boxers from the streets know of or know JHR. And most JHR fighters are really good, fast and powerful, plus they can take a punch especially if the learned in jail. I’m hoping that other people will give some input on fighting other styles as well. How about you? I know you have travelled lots and you’ve probably seen lots of fighting styles.
I’d like to make some pts gentlemen (yes, another lurker steps “out of the closet” to use modern parlance, lol.)
Really the only way to learn to counter a GOOD boxer is to train with one or learn his game. I have Tony Blauers first video series (w/Panther) and he has some sick boxing skills-very mobile and very dangerous. The point I think is that we can say “well, what if he does this, what if he throws that…” but a boxer will fight you , NOT “box” you per se if its a street altercation. So his attacks wont be single, isolated ones-a flurry, barrage from a boxer AT CLOSE RANGE is lethal. Think prison cell, bar, or even school hallway (u know Joy, the undergrads that think u graded them unfairly 
Also we are fixating on fighting the STYLE. What if said boxer also does muay thai or grappling? We are facing, potentially, a whole range of tools or techniques.
The old adage “never box a boxer” or “never grapple a grappler” is quaint but not very usefull. By the time u realize your enemy is a boxer you will be on the ground facing the sky, ditto for grappling. You cannot set your training as “is he is a boxer i will handle him this way, if hes a grappler I will handle him this way…” due to the reaction gap and also because he could be cross trained (or just a bad mutha.)
Did anyone see the recent bout that the Filipino kid won? He seemed to use a **** effective “boxing blast” type of attack that floored the Mexican dude.
Old wc was not designed for the ring either or the octagon.
Can it adapt to new fighting methods?
Anyway, I try to stay with my lead parallel to my opponent’s lead.
This way when he jabs I’m away from his “power” hand. How about the jab body hook or vice versa? Any takers?
Iblis, good points.
Phil, jumping ahead to CLF, my first KF instructor, David Crook, Has taught a hybrid system using Wing Chun, CLF, and Northern Sil Lum since 1969. He trained with Sigung Cheung in the 1960’s when the latter was a resident of Canberra, where David still lives and teaches. Sigung (according to David, who I have no reason to doubt) used to send his more advanced students at the time to David’s classes, as (according to David) he wanted them to get experience using and defending against CLF’s circular attacks.
While WC and CLF have been traditional enemies in HK for generations, David believes they are HIGHLY complementary.
Also, once again according to the same source, a number of CLF techniques have specific uses against WC fighters. Some of the twisting punches are designed to snake around a WC guard, others like the swinging punches to allow power attacks with minimal opportunity for a WC person to find a bridge, or to destroy WC structure, knocking the guard aside and then working on the rest.
While much of WC history in HK involves victory over CLF adversaries, it should come as no surprise that much CLF lore involves the vanquishing of hapless WC fighters.
Ernie is correct. Proper distancing is the most simple answer which Phil has disallowed.
The distance is what makes the hook tight.
If the opponent is close and their hand is free, they will throw at any openings. This creates the situation where you must defend.
By applying the inside lim sao when the distance is close, cupping the opponent’s tricep, you can establish a control point where they cannot throw a hook.
Similarly with the bobbing and weaving, boxing combos etc, if you let the opponent move whereever they like or throw whatever they like, then you are putting the pressure onto yourself to hit a moving target and defend multiple attacks.
While you can do it, the strategy should be to apply the WC ideas of shutting them down, sticking, getting control points etc.
Haymakers are easier to deal with than “tight” hooks to the body or head. Aside from proper distancing does anyone have any ideas? How about treating a tight head shot as an elbow strike?
There was no disallowment in this statement. I most definately mentioned proper distancing. Proper distance is always important especially when multiple punches/kicks are thrown.
Andrew,
A CLFpow choy can cause some real damage. It can slice right through a bong sau.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
There was no disallowment in this statement. I most definately mentioned proper distancing. Especially when multiple punches/kicks are thrown.
Well sure you mentioned it, but you basically stated you didn’t want to hear any more about it, which is a shame since it’s the best answer and there’s a lot of aspects involved in it.
edmund,
You’re reading too much into what I wrote. I never said that I didn’t want to hear about distance. I figured it was a given that everyone here would know that. My statement “aside from distance” doesn’t mean that distance isn’t important. Without proper distance you can’t function properly.
looks like it’s going technique vs. technique this will cause us to splinter , since some things work better for some body types then others …
lets look at the one universal element ,
the body
and how it generates power , for there to be a hook, over hand, cross upper cut ‘’ from the rear hand for arguments sake ‘’
there hast to be a common engine , power source , in wing chun we face squarely and apply ground power via out structure and alignment ‘’ the trans mission’’
but for a rear power hand there needs to be torque ,a twisting to bring the rear side into play , sometimes wide sometimes tight and crisp but the engine is the same , one shoulder forward one back a twist and ‘‘bam’’ we got a canon.
if we look at the problem from a body mechanics point of view and we understand the elements a person needs to make use of such an action , we can take into consideration that threat and shut it down before it starts
close off the lead hand line but simultaneously stall the power side
how you do it is up to you and your skill level , we call this controlling 2 points in one action or ''sealing ‘’
I’m purposely staying away from technique
how do you develop this skill the seed are in chi sau but I would work with boxers on a specific drill
the boxer has on glove , I do not , he is allowed lead and rear hand shots , light to moderate at first , building pressure as we developed a working relation ship ,
I would intercept the lead hand and close on that side of the body eating up his space so he couldn’t double jab or jab hook and so on .
I would simultaneously place my hand on his rear glove , I would learn to feel when he would pulse , or plant to fire his shot and just apply pressure at the exact moment to stall his action ,
spend time in there surfing his energy left and right sometimes you get it some times you don’t later add in your own shots ,
uh oh the girlfriend is pulling my computer plug got to go
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
edmund,
You’re reading too much into what I wrote. I never said that I didn’t want to hear about distance. I figured it was a given that everyone here would know that.
True possibly but I just feel more could be discussed on it technically.
My statement “aside from distance” doesn’t mean that distance isn’t important. Without proper distance you can’t function properly.
agreed.
On what Iblis73 said:
It’s true you cannot know what type of opponent you are facing hence it hard to strategize to match their “style”.
But every opponent and style is limited by the human body and attacks come from the same angles and gates regardless.
From a non-contact position, we have to rely on general visual cues whether the attack is a punch or a grab or whatever. So while they may have any number of tools and techniques, they still have two arms and legs.
So when we look for things like elbow control or wrist control or neck control etc., these defences apply against any sort of opponent.
comments on Iblis 73’s post:
or even school hallway (u know Joy, the undergrads that think u graded them unfairly
((I could tell you stories!!))
Did anyone see the recent bout that the Filipino kid won? He seemed to use a **** effective “boxing blast” type of attack that floored the Mexican dude.
((The Pacuiao(?)-Barrera fight? Very instructive.More to it than that- though he did pour it on. His trainer Freddie Roach is a good trainer-retrained him in several key ways-defensively. P is a southpaw. Many southpaws depend on their power left. P has been knocked out before when he just depended on his power left. Roach had him work a lot on his straight right and right hooks. His timing was excellent. His right jab kept throwing off Barrera’s timing.Barrera has been in some major wars which has taken it’s toll. That is the downside of boxing-
the relatively early dterioration of skills in the 30s!
BTW streetfighters have to become more well rounded to do well in boxing. On the street one can get by with some favorite techniques- but the pace of boxing(training) requires a more well rounded approach. You just cant depend ona sucker punch etc.
Rocky Graziano wasa street fighter witha great right. Against a young Sugar Ray Robinson-he was a one armed guy who got wiped out.))
Phil sez:
Can it adapt to new fighting methods?
“It” doesnt do a thing. You do. “It” to me is simply the best way to have an integrated development of the body, motion and the mind-the human body structure has not changed much in 3oo years- with good understanding wc can be adjusted for the “new”.
I know we go round and round on that topic.
Andrew,
A CLFpow choy can cause some real damage. It can slice right through a bong sau.
(( sure-If you misuse the bong sao))
What wing chun tape were people refering to earlier in this thread? The one where William Cheung uses ant-bobing tactics..? I’d like to get that one.
When you compare ONLY the hand techniques verus ONLY the hands of boxing won’t Wing chun always fall somewhat behind?
The footwork in Wing Chun is designed in a way as to protect against kicks and lower attacks so it isn’t as nimble as boxing footwork… The footwork of boxing is what allows them to deliver their quick and powerful punches. In a competetion where hands are only allowed wouldn’t a wing chun person using wing chun footwork fall behind? With kicks and knees invovled (even if they’re never used, just the threat of them) doesn’t it change the whole dynamic of combat and make wing chun footwork more practical?
Also, doesn’t adding in kicking and knees tip the scale slightly more towards the wing chun side? Wing Chun people (as far as I know) know how to deliver and defend against kicks/knees better than boxers, and it seems to me that a lot of the verticle evasions used by boxers become dangerous against a wing chun guy (or any person for that matter) who doesn’t chase feints and knows where to use kicks.
I don’t really have any ranking in wing chun yet (been doing it for 9 months, but also did another kung fu style for 3 years) and have never fought a boxer so I don’t really know anything besides theories… or what MIGHT work…
BTW after reading this thread I started watching a lot of boxing clips… I noticed that quite a few attacks are parried in a manner similiar to wing chun, and that the footwork isn’t THAT much different. If boxers can use parries and blocks effectively against hooks and other attacks why couldn’t wing chun?
Also, from far away couldn’t the Wing Chun entry techique followed by a fake hooking punch be used to draw a response from a boxer? This way if they duck underneath the attack your body is fairly well protected to coutner attacks, and if you punch using your leading hand and with your knee raised you are positioned to do a kick of some kind, or a knee if the duck close in to your body.
PS, just a quick question, but how well do boxing techniques blend in with wing chun and has does anyone use that kind of combination?
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
Can it adapt to new fighting methods?
Anyway, I try to stay with my lead parallel to my opponent’s lead.
This way when he jabs I’m away from his “power” hand. How about the jab body hook or vice versa? Any takers?
I train thai boxing on Saturdays, and while by no means an expert, I’ve noticed when sparing these guys like to keep a cross leg stance (ie: left foot forward to your left foot), they will switch stance to keep this position.
I guess the parallel stance means the opponent has to bridge in deeper to throw the rear arm especially for tighter attacks such as the hook or rip.
At least with the jab body shot youve got a better path to counter to the head and I find you can absorb the body hook a bit by keeping the elbows in. I tight counter of the jab can also back the attack up an take up some of the opponent forward momentum.