For those interested I would like to start a thread on the technical aspects of WC, (whatever that means).
I consider WC a “fighting” art. Those with like minds will contribute. I don’t have all the answers and I’m willing to learn from the experiences of others who have used WC in “no holds barred”, street encounters, etc. If you want to discuss lineage, philosophy there are other threads for that. My first question is training how to deal with a boxer’s constant bobbing, weaving, ducking. I have used a double end bag, “crazy ball” in the past. I find that it helps train accuracy with the straight punch. The only problem with that is that it doesn’t bob diagonally like a real person because it stays at a constant height. Also, any input on countering a really fast jab cross, jab body hooks, etc. I have a few methods I use. I’d like to hear from others.
- I have a thing called a speed ball, not a speed bag, its mounted like a double ended bag, on a nylon cord thats attached to two points, mines mounted diagonally, so when you hit it less then dead ccenter, it bounces around almost randomly. Its smaller then most spped bags too, like 4 inches in diameter. Only my teacher seems to be able to hit it consistently.
2)Best thing would be to find boxers that have good jab/cross/hook/uppercut/bob/slip/weave etc and practice various parts of your game against his game.
3)We call them counter-for-counter drills… its not sparring, both of you know what the other is going to do, you just dont know when or how exactly.
imo.
yenhoi
Thanks, that’ s the kind of posts I’m looking for. I have a new student in Canada who’s a boxing trainer. He hits from all angles even when he looks off balance. Those counter-for counter drills sound good. I going to ask him to work with me after class on them. Can you give me a better picture of how you mounted your speedball diagonally? Also, where did you buy it? I have a speed bag/ball from Ringside that has a smaller ball over the larger one so you can practice shots to the body and to the head.
Phil
the only way to deal with a boxer , is to work of a boxer , not just one but every one you can get your hands on big , small , fast , powerful and so on . until then it all theories
that being said ,
bobbing and weaving , if he dips low catch his neck and rip a knee in his face , one good knee to the grill is worth a thousand upper cuts , if it’s friendly the just use you fook to ride his neck and mess up his balance , he will instinctivly try and weave out , crack him when he pops up ‘’ dirty boxing tactics ‘’
now the guy with a crispy jab , this depends on you ability to close the gap and close the jab line while monitoring the rear power hand , you can use what ever type of wedging shape you want ‘’ fook,man sau. bong , quan , punch as long as your foot work and angle are in a fashion that smoothers and cuts off the jab and his escape route ,
but you must monitor the rear power hand if he has a tight guard and it’s held close to the chest , pin it on his chest ‘’ he s planning on a straight cross or a upper cut ‘’
if it’s a loss guard and his glove floating off the chest , here comes the overhand or hook line , you can intercept with a shoulder stop or elbow stop , use what ever tool you system prefers , tan bui, use a line to cut the arch.
the guy with good footwork and rhythm , your in for a long day if he is a pro level but accept that he is a pro and you are not , so your consistency rate wont be as high as a guy who just thinks he has boxing footwork,
my best advice it going to be a little vague , understand how to use broken rhythm on entry , he is watching you he has a read and this read gives him a pattern of motion and reflex ,his eyes are very sensitive , so basically use his heightened attributes against him . lie to him with your motion . use left and right stance to cut off his escape routes , and apply forward pressure once your in never let him find his feet again, most people can’t fight going backwards …
just a few idea’s off the cuff
Ernie sez:
most people can’t fight going backwards …
True—but the flip side of the same prop. is that a good guy
can-but proper wc footwork can jam him/her.
FWIW Ernie w all your pics— take a look at the original Sugar Ray
and the second Fulmer fight…slow it down and watch— one of the greatest one punch(left low hook) knockouts ever- with Robinson going backwards…
or the one with Jones with his hands behind his back- balanced- then he comes out with a knock out right…
But “athleticism” is part of it… an older Robinson coulnt do it and Jones couldnt against Tarver-though he tried.
Ernie
>>that being said ,
bobbing and weaving , if he dips low catch his neck and rip a knee in his face , one good knee to the grill is worth a thousand upper cuts , if it’s friendly the just use you fook to ride his neck and mess up his balance , he will instinctivly try and weave out , crack him when he pops up ‘’ dirty boxing tactics ‘’<<
Wow, when I read the first sentence I was thinking NO, it’s friendly sparing to train the hands only. I’d do that if we were kickboxing. Then I read where you describe the friendly spar.
>>…now the guy with a crispy jab , this depends on you ability to close the gap and close the jab line while monitoring the rear power hand…<<
I sometimes lead with my “power” hand. I train not to have a perference. The rest of that paragrah has good points. Sounds like you’ve banged a little 
Ernie/yenhoi, Do you guys , (or anyone else) find it easier to fight a traditional martial artist than a boxer or un-orthodox fighter?
In my experience it seems so.
joy
i watched the fight last night
and yes baiting some one in as your going back yet still on your heals with balance is still a good place to be if you can pull it off ,
but when your doing th 50 yard dash down someones center and there stumbling htis is more the backward i was talking about .
but the fight was awsome to watch , i’m watching the ali clips now.
phil
[[[Ernie/yenhoi, Do you guys , (or anyone else) find it easier to fight a traditional martial artist than a boxer or un-orthodox fighter?
In my experience it seems so.]]]
it is in my experience so far , wayyyyyyyyyyyyy easier , since most tradional martial artist ‘’ sadly many of many of wing chun friends included ‘’ are to fixed and stubborn ,
they can’t adapt to the real pressure , of when things don’ fit the preconditioned box .
they seem to lack experience and the ability to adapt , though theymay have a superior technical approach , they can’t make it fit , if you alter the game a little , there are momentary pauses ‘’ mental holes in time while they try to re adjust or over commit and force the wrong concept ‘’
that being said , the same mental hiccup can be used against a boxer , by altering the game but there just tougher , thai fighters are another tough conditioned bunch .
phil
[[Sounds like you’ve banged a little ]]
when i was first learning wing chun and all the way up to last year , i mixed it up ‘’ trained with ‘’ some hella good fighters , all of them were way out of my league , but they had good spirits and didn’t hurt me to much ,
i learned alot from them , one inparticular was hollifields sparring patner a monster of a man , i’m a pretty big guy but this guy could pick me up like a child and dangle me in the air . he was like 6 fot 8 and 350 pounds , with blazing hand speed .
i got pages and pages of notes from our sessions , so yep i got dropped alot 
insects and ball
i find it good to spar with wasps bees hornets etc,
they move in all directions very quick, if you can hit one then thats pretty good.
or, try this:
go in a small room with few objects. take a bouncy ball like you probably had as a kid. bounce it. (its evrywhere) try and hit it clean. nice drill.
FTD- That’s funny:-. Go into a small room- smear yourself with
honey- turn loose a bunch of wasps bees fire ants a rattler or two
a python, a wild cat- close the door with a small transparent window have it locked from the outside and have a great time.
And yell to a friend to let you out when you are in deep trouble.
You can vary the training routine with different partners- a cobra instead of a diamond back, african bees instead of the garden variety- sand fleas, mississipi mosquitos,a pit bull instead of the cat- icrease the size and ferocity of these resisting opponents- you have the making of a real warrior.
Wear a blind fold or turn out the lights for another level.
Be sure to study science, history and theory, battlefield strategy and tactics before you enter the room-know beforehand what stance you will use.
Home is the sailor home from sea and the hunter home from the hill-know where your bai jong will be exactly and your vitamin pill.
joy
[[You can vary the training routine with different partners- a cobra instead of a diamond back, african bees instead of the garden variety- sand fleas, mississipi mosquitos,a pit bull instead of the cat- icrease the size and ferocity of these resisting opponents- you have the making of a real warrior.
]]
i knew you were secretly sparring thanks for the advice:)
originally posted by Phil Redmond
My first question is training how to deal with a boxer’s constant bobbing, weaving, ducking. I have used a double end bag, “crazy ball” in the past. I find that it helps train accuracy with the straight punch.
Redmond Sifu, is there a rule of thumb to relate your question to TWC or in other words first I am wondering what TWC says you should do in this scenario and secondly how you either apply these rules of thumb or modified the rules in application when the time came to put the rules into action.
canglong
The wording in your question has me a little confused. If you’re asking if TWC trains to puch at different angles the answer is yes.
Bobbing and weaving are defensive actions.Boxers usually don’t do that when they are attacking. The best opportunity (imo) to hit a boxer is when he is himself on the attack and not bobbing /weaving.Or…you could use the old fighter pilot trick of aiming where the target will be when the bullets arrive!..
Hi Guys,
I’d like to add that this thread is about the technical aspect of WC. Any question that mentions lineage I’m ignoring. And I hope all interested in fighting will stay on topic as well.
Haymakers are easier to deal with than “tight” hooks to the body or head. Aside from proper distancing does anyone have any ideas? How about treating a tight head shot as an elbow strike?
Originally posted by yuanfen
FTD- That’s funny:-. Go into a small room- smear yourself with
honey- turn loose a bunch of wasps bees fire ants a rattler or two
a python, a wild cat- close the door with a small transparent window have it locked from the outside and have a great time.
And yell to a friend to let you out when you are in deep trouble.
Nothing beats hunting wild boar in the Santa Cruz mountains. To make it sporting (for the boar), you can use a knife or a gun, as long as you’re on foot. Some of the big 'uns run to the size of a volkswagen.
Regards,
Re: canglong
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
The wording in your question has me a little confused. If you’re asking if TWC trains to puch at different angles the answer is yes.
Ah!..You mentionned lineage right there!..You should then ignore your own post!..
I’m beginning to think that the Street/Reality Fighting forum is where some of us should be.
Anyway, I’ve also raised my guard on one side into a cheun sao, (“sort of” like the position a Thai boxer uses to cover his head), as a last minute resort to a fast and tight hook to the head.
Phil
well you removed the most obvious and best answer , distance , but we all end up there , tight hooks , and elbows are very dangerous tools , when used correctly
but the are still based on body rotation and torque ‘’ a circular engine ‘’
though in the hands of a skilled person that circle is very crisp ,
for it still comes down to cutting off the power side . the beginning of the circle , before it has developed momentum,
it’s a feel thing , or a recognition thing , when you spend time in the clinch area / body to body . you can feel when a guy is about to fire and zap him or stall him of jam him at that moment , stop his mental and physical engine , he will have to restart this is the opening when he is at his weakest .
as a visual concept if you shut down the jab line or lead side of the body by closing in , he will either fade out with good footwork or rip in the rear hand ,‘’ baring a elevation change ‘’
so if your aware of that rear threat you just close it off as you move in, take it before he can shoot.
but these things require spending time in that environment and eating shots , not on every ones menu