yuanfen hmm..
i was being serious man!
and if you turn the lights out - the bees and wasps and hornets will all go to sleep in instinct, so all it’d train is my footwork not stepping on them!!
another suggestion, try training in a swiming pool, get a ball filled with air attached to a rope, attach rope to floor… let the buoyancy of the… ah never mind
At our academy we have several floor-to-ceiling balls of different sizes, from about six inches in diameter down ot about tennis ball size. Never though of the diagonal attachment though, good idea.
I know what OJ means about bobbing and weaving being defensive, but more often than not they also provide excellent opportunities for counterpunching, e.g.countering a jab by slipping outside and uppercut to the chin, or weaving under a hook and shovel hooking to the short ribs on the way under.
IMO the “classic” WC guard and blocks redirections are less effective against a boxer who bobs and weaves and gets close. If you can keep him at your distance, great, but don’t bet on it.
I find I’m blocking more shots (the ones that don’t connect, anyway, ouch) with elbows and gloves and shedding punches with body movement … like a boxer would. From the small amount of experience I have, it definitely helps to be first and take the initiative rather than try to play defense or catchup.
My Sifu, Rick Spain, is pretty handly as a boxer, and can box in at least three different styles - peekaboo, European defence, and another style where he holds his guard more open with constant hand movement. As soon as you get one sort of worked out he switches to another. I went through a pretty intense few months working out with him and some buds once a week like this, with a number of split lips and black eyes, which I had to eventually stop after a broken eardrum (beautiful right hook to the ear…sigh).
Clinching can sometimes work against a guy who want to play the long range jab-cross game .. but most bobber weavers are very familiar with the clinch, and arguably most boxers know more about the clinch than any striking TMAer.
Boxers IMO are MUCH harder to fight because even good shots don’t really faze them, and they’re willing to take a shot to give a better one. CONTACT, baby. Also they generally have MUCH faster and more practical footwork, and are MUCH fitter than TMA people.
IMO like most other stuff get some experience in what you’re trying to defend against. Same applies with all this “WC antigrappling” crap … grapplers have always had the best “antigrappling”, why not learn it from people that understand it the best?
I could see how trying to hit flying insect might increase your reaction speed … wasps, hornets, and other stinging insects might not be wise though. Kill a few of them and you’ll have the whole nest onto you - no pak sao’s going to be fast enough for that!
re technician
hi phil for me if i was dealing with a boxer and his weaving rememeber, this is he ducks he does not have the gloves on as in street fight i would use the wing chun uppercut from chumkill depending on skill level footwork and jamming also come into this get off his line dont stay in one stop so to speack, if you stand still in dealing with a boxer your a dead man also i would worry about his monugal jab before i would, worry about bobing and weaving peace russellsherry
At our school, we have a drill where one person will be holding two focus mit while the other person concentrates on punching it. The person holding the focus mit will be constantly moving it around while the wing chun person has to track it and keep punching. You can do this in a static position for new students, or you can do this with footwork where the person holding the focus mit will be stepping back, side stepping, etc.
The point of the drill is to train the eyes to quickly recognize where the target is.
Originally posted by Phil Redmond
I’m beginning to think that the Street/Reality Fighting forum is where some of us should be.
Anyway, I’ve also raised my guard on one side into a cheun sao, (“sort of” like the position a Thai boxer uses to cover his head), as a last minute resort to a fast and tight hook to the head.
Ditto for me , sort of…
Tight high bon (like an sharp upward elbow strike), smother clinch, elbow counter from the check.
Alternatively ‘try’ work the position just outside of range of tight hook to get your scone out of the way. (ie: half step / weave back).
Still get caught a lot with that one (jab, cross, hook).
I don’t have any credentials to answer these questions… As I have never been in a situation to use wing chun, and haven’t attained any status with it…
But why wouldn’t a bill sao work against a tight hook just as easily as against a more swinging roundhouse punch?
Also, as soon as you see them begin to attack wouldn’t a straight punch on the same side as their lead while at the same time doing a close pok sao to cover your face, then as your punching arm retreats turning the poking hand into a bill sao work..? Don’t average boxers tend to telegraph their punches a little more than wing chun punches which would allow for some pre-emptive guarding of zones (before the attack is thrown) while at the same time attacking where the opponents arm is leaving?
Also, by raising your knee as soon as you begin an attack or sense a sudden attack doesn’t that defend against lower punches pretty well, while allowing you to kick the boxer if he ducks under your punch?
BTW, if boxing is so difficult to deal with as opposed to traditional kung fu martial arts wouldn’t the most effective route be just to train in boxing as surely the same would apply to people you might have to fight on the street?
ftd now sez<g>-
Why a ball? Get real! Put a grown alligator in the pool. Avoid his jaws- get on his back control him with your legs- guard and pull up on his head- you may get a submission. If you rub their sweet spot you can put one to sleep. Old time Florida Seminole sport.On the other hand—oops-I forget which hand
((PS I have seen this long before the Aussie came out with his TV show))
((PPS Do your pre birth chi gung -before you get into the water)):-
Phil:
I remember Sifu (William Cheung) teaching a strategy to deal with the boxer who bobs and weaves at some of his earliest seminars back in the day…he used a hook punch as an opening attack to make the boxer react by weaving to a place that YOU KNOW HE WILL GO…ie. I throw a left hook and he weaves down and around toward my left flank…I then immediately barrage that “area”, where his head now is, with a barrage of straight blast chain (roll) punches…thereby straightening him up and hopefully backing him up and taking him right out of his bobing and weaving tactic because I"m now “all over him”…so to speak.
Wow, some really cool discussion going on, it prompted me to come out of lurking mode!
I find the title of the thread a little deceptive. When I think of “technician,” I think of the finer points, precision, and coherent logic that puts Wing Chun together-- basically, the things that go out the window if you let the adrenaline monster take over (which happens so often…).
Anyway, someone mentioned about not being able to fight when moving backwards-- this seems to be the prevailing theory among the people who like to chain punch a lot. Personal experience has made me stray from this approach-- once, when sparring someone who outweighed me by 50 pounds, I just could not get the person off balance and going backwards. Another time, I had a boxer going backward off balance, but he somehow regained balance and nailed me with a tight hook. Yet another time I thought I had someone going backward and they shot in and did a modified suplex (they were in front of me, not behind me-- regardless, I would have landed on my head had I not angled off and fell on my shoulder and rolled instead).
Despite these nasty experiences, chain punching does seem to be a good weapon if you expect your technique to go to all hell in an adrenaline encounter.
Now for some specific methods we use:
To practice accuracy against a moving target, we will often chase after a focus mitt held by a feeder who is moving it in all kinds of directions. Someone else mentioned this drill as well. Practically speaking, one thing to consider is not aiming for the head which is a smaller target that moves faster than the body.
Against quick jabs-- we practice timing interceptions. Two parties face off at whatever distance we are practicing. The feeder throws a single attack while the other person attempts to do a simultaneous attack-defense. Against a jab, that might be a straight punch over the top, combined with positioning oneself on the flank. Of course, easier said than done…
Off of this, go into continuous attacks-- after the initial attack, the feeder continues with 3, 5, or continuous combinations. I think someone mentioned this
Against the tight hook-- god, I hate that thing. I’ve seen people practice against it in isolation – as in, the feeder just throws a hook at you. But we know that a boxer is going to put that hook somewhere in a combination-- the only practice we have against it is #3 here. However, I would love to hear what other people are doing.
I am also of the thinking that the best way to make your Wing Chun work against a boxer is to spar against boxers. It is always an eye-opening experience.
Also to learn the basics of boxing. I have seen some martial arts schools where they have counters against boxing techniques, but the feeders look awful.
I think for the lead hook, you can parry it with your favorite block but the rear hook or overhand right…even if you beat him with your straight punch if his is on the way already it can mean taking a big hit…I think the strategy has to be to move away from it and wedge into his center, just like against the round kick. It’s quicker to move your head than to move your whole body but of course you don’t want to move it into something else…
Also I believe that this range of fighting in Wing Chun is elbow range - but I know so little of WC elbow fighting other than the 5 elbows and really basic apps…
>>IMO like most other stuff get some experience in what you’re trying to defend against. Same applies with all this “WC antigrappling” crap … grapplers have always had the best “antigrappling”, why not learn it from people that understand it the best?<<
Good point Andrew. That’s why I’m studying grappling.
>>. . . . .i would use the wing chun uppercut from chumkill. . <<
Russell, how would you train this?
>>. . . .we have a drill where one person will be holding two focus mit. . . .<<
churn-ging, that’s a good way to train timing and focus.
I remember Sifu (William Cheung) teaching a strategy to deal with the boxer who bobs and weaves at some of his earliest seminars back in the day…he used a hook punch as an opening attack to make the boxer react by weaving to a place that YOU KNOW HE WILL GO…ie. I throw a left hook and he weaves down and around toward my left flank…I then immediately barrage that “area”, where his head now is, with a barrage of straight blast chain (roll) punches…thereby straightening him up and hopefully backing him up and taking him right out of his bobing and weaving tactic because I"m now “all over him”…so to speak.
Victor, I like the tape with Sifu and the peekaboo boxers. He sometimes counter jabs with a pak cheun covering a posibble cross to the upper gate on the opposite side. Perfect for headhunters.
Back to Phiil’s more wing chun relevant question— with sufficient training- a quick coordinated biu motion- can protect against a hook. A tight hook at close quaters is a beauty. Not all hooks are co equal. “Ducking” a hook has its risks… good hookers can do it again and again- do it to you one more time-it can create a meditative experience- the hook that is:-
Brithlor,
>> why wouldn’t a bill sao work against a tight hook just as easily as against a more swinging roundhouse punch?<<
How would you get a biu inside of a tight hook? Plus, some hooks use a step with the whole body behind it.
>>so, as soon as you see them begin to attack…<<
they can use a setup and you won’t see diddley.
>>. . woudn’t a straight punch on the same side as their lead while at the same time doing a close pok sao to cover your face, then as your punching arm retreats turning the poking hand into a bill sao work..?<<
I’m not quite sure what you mean here. Are you saying to use a parallel arm straight punch pak as he is hooking?
>>don’t average boxers tend to telegraph their punches a little more than wing chun punches which would allow for some pre-emptive guarding of zones (before the attack is thrown) while at the same time attacking where the opponents arm is leaving?<<
a boxer trains not to telegraph his blows unless he’s feinting.
From the sidelines the blows seem telegraphed. When you’re in front of a good boxer the blows can come from out of nowhere.
But why wouldn’t a bill sao work against a tight hook just as easily as against a more swinging roundhouse punch?
With a bil sao, you’re trying to intercept at the inside of the forearm inside the punch’s arc. With a wide swinging punch, that is a sound strategy, but with a nice tight hook it’s almost impossible to wedge your bil sao in there. Same with garn or gum against a shovel hook or body rip.
don’t average boxers tend to telegraph their punches a little more than wing chun punches
In a word, NO. IMO the average Wing Chun guy is probably likely to telegraph more due to lack of real “banging” experience. The “average boxer” is IMO a much more dangerous proposition than the “average WC student”. Don’t underestimate boxing, it is pretty d@mn effective.
if boxing is so difficult to deal with as opposed to traditional kung fu martial arts wouldn’t the most effective route be just to train in boxing as surely the same would apply to people you might have to fight on the street?
Many people agree with such a proposition, expecially boxers.
A different perspective:Much depends on who learned what and how.
Boxers are indeed dangerous but not all boxers are good boxers.
Wing Chun takes more time to learn effectively…but once the learning curve goes upward-it’s quite a journey. Micro biu motions can defend againsta hook. Depends on training it IMO.
Using boxing motions agaisnt boxers can be problematical-they know boxing moves better than non boxers.
Maybe soon we can show examples while posting re what is being talked about at the time.Real time.
Now THIS! is the kind of thread I like to see around here.
Good stuff, great points!
And no you cant bil-sao a tight hook…those of us who tried against some one really thring to hook, know this (ow!) lol.
Developmental biu sao and applying it are two quite different things. There are many different options in biu jee.But biu sao is not the only answer.
But if you use onlya boxing move againsta good boxerand you are not a good boxer-careful -it’s his game. You should have a game of your own- whatever it is. No two hooks are exactly the same-in timing,speed, direction or power.
clarification
My questions about boxing techniques were not meant for boxers only. I wasn’t talking about ring fighting. I am from NYC and I now live in Detroit. In both places and in other urban areas there are lots of young and old people who have been in jail. They learn peekaboo, comstock, 52 blocks, jailrock etc, and they are pretty good because knowing how to fight with their hands could save their butts, literally;)
People who live in the “burbs” may never come across a person who knows jailhouse rock. So of course you’ll probably never get to see a really JHR fighter. Try this link.