Part 1
Hello M,
Great Chat.
- learn the alphabet of the system in easily remembered sequences
Ok. Whats the Complex Alphabet that Wing Chun needs numerous sets? Bong, Tan, Fook, Sao or (Kai)? All those hands interacting with some posture,positioning and mechanics? What else is there the Sup Jee shape looking hand? (fak or some call lan) Thats pretty much the whole system if you include a punch or palm right.
- develop the body in the specific ways your system requires it
Thats the entire discussion! 
- through repetition train your body to remember the techniques of your system so the required “shape/technique” is utilized “automatically” when it’s required.
Ok. Take the above and make it natural but still for the 4 or 5 tools we basically use forms would not be needed IMO.
Learning happens through repetition after all.
No argument here.
- as a quasi “side effect” or result of No. 2 and 3 develop the types of power transmissions (“jings”) required by your system
So! You have: Cultivate, Manifest the cultivation, Free Flow with specific cultivation.
So, we agree.
You have any empricial proof for that? Anything you do wrong can cause health problems…this applies to most sports and activities.
Sure. Its common knowledge for any athletic sport or physical art to continue to strengthen the body with some balance activity will only make the body more and more brittle. WCK has the long time rep for Bad Knees. Its like driving a Car and not going in for an Oil and Lube. Maybe! For the old timers: Since we have their written notes, some of this stuff was important to them.
Your body won’t become weak if you actually practice enough…yes, forms, forms forms, dummy, dummy, dummy, sparring, sparring sparring, chi sao, chi sao, chi sao…etc. etc. etc..
Thata all good but dont take you car in for a little oil and lube for a the life of the vehicle. We are not disagreeing on the importance of practice to build the art but rather the possible maintainence of the art maybe the old timers had.
Wing Chun is soft and hard to me, keeping in mind that “soft” and “hard” are relative. Ying/Yang, black/white…etc. Why declare wing chun just soft? Why is Taiji considered “soft?” Xingyi? Do they have the emai “engine” too? Obviously not. You guys are giving the creators of wing chun too little credit
We all should really leave the Emei/Shaolin names out of this. Its causing too much wasted energy. We produce and cultivate our art via the Soft. The Hard is a a by product of the Soft Road. So, there is Yin Yang balance thru the training. Taiji is Taiji, Xing Yi is Xing Yi. There is more than one way to become soft you know just like there is more than one way to learn harder gong. I think you also under-estimate the creators or creator. Its ok tho! None of us were there so in the end its just what makes more sense to us.
And who is this “pupil?” Maybe he misheard. Joking aside, whatever Sum Nung said, just because he might have speculated about the possible origins of wing chun does not make his speculation any more valid than yours or Hendrik’s or anybody else’s. We all have the same sources and same “evidence” to go by.
Sure! In case you are curious he was a pupil of Sum Nung’s Uncle and also trained with Sum Nung. I am sure there are lots of people in different schools who hear different stories. Why? Some care to ask and some dont. So, its not un-likely for the same school to think differently about the same topic. Everyone has an equal value. You, Me, Tony, Joy everyone. Its just History for gods sake. hahaha Think of it like Indians Jones. hahaha
No they don’t. Trust me that I know my wing chun , including it’s theories, maxims, concepts very well. After all I have an excellent teacher. The kidney breathing exercises that sum nung introduced into his wing chun have nothing to do with increasing your ability to fight. It’s for health.
Well others say they do? Who do we believe? See what i mean? Sum Nung’s uncle, Sum Nungs son and many other fine pupils of Sum Nung have the Kuit and stories. I am sure you Sifu is excellent. Sum Nung was an amazing Master. Kidney Breath has nothing to DO WITH FIGHTING. Its the Oil and Lube that maybe Sum Nung felt was important to keep his body and pupils bodies from getting Brittle. Maybe, since the SLT and other stuff was not providing this Oil/Lube was why he felt it important to add it in?
Waaaaiiiiiitttt a minute! If wing chun already has the emei qigong sysem “built in”, then why would someone like sum nung feel he needed to include some health exercises into his wing chun? Hmmm…maybe, just maybe, wing chun was really developed as an effective fighting art…pure and simple.
Or! Maybe its the Oil and Lube. 
Were you there or do you have any written sources to make such claims? How do you know that they were “close?” How do you know there were white crane practitioners on the red junks? I think we’re, once again, the realm of wild speculation.
Lots of writting on the interaction and the two families are surving today with great stories to sift thru and find the common ground. Its a famous story man. Heck! They even made TV Soap Opera’s about the times. None of us were there but plenty of info on this topic.
When it comes to empty hand forms. for weng chun it’s clearly weng chun kuen (as the name already implies). For wing chun obviously Siu Nim Tao. However, both forms are worthless without the accompanying concepts, explanations and applications. Those are the real mother. I personally think that the wooden dummy forms in both arts are also the real mother.
A Mother gives Birth. What gives Birth to WCK? SLT. Thats the Mother for me.
Who is this white crane person? Same as the white crane with the dummy that you mentioned before? How come nobody has heard about the white crane dummy? Don’t tell me the whole “it was secret” story…I don’t buy it.
Not sure. Contact you own family. I was sent the video from a student of Sum Nung and Sum Dek. He was researching Pin Sun Wing Chun and contacted me. I dont believe in the whole secrecy thing. I just believe that some stuff the general public see’s and some stuff is not common to the public. Just like Wing Chun. We all heard the: Biu Jee’s secrets dont leave the Door BS. The Gup Gao Sau emergency secret set. Just becasuse new info comes out it does not mean it was not around already. The more we dig the more we find stuff.
Nobody has to mix anything into their wing chun.
Nobody is saying to. 
Just looking into the History.
Plus, Hendrik says that their SLT is pretty much equivalent to other people’s SLT, CK, BJ, so, if true, it wouldn’t matter if you practice one long set or stop in between three parts of the set and call it three sets.
Bingo.
Why not leave Yik Kam and Hendrik the person out of this and just concentrate on the actual arguments made here? I think that would be more productive than trying to prove that Yik Kam was somehow inferior to others.
Thank you. Nobody is inferior. Its everyones art and everyones info.
Jim, I could use Taijiquan to make up “matches” with wing chun, too. Kuen kuit/Taiji classics match. Ying/Yang cirlce match, snake hands match…etc…etc.
Please do then.
By the way, what we do at the beginning of the SLT after the punch has a specific purpose…nothing mystical or related to qigong. Same with the “lap sao” movement. It’s has a specific purpose in the form and in application. Nothing mystical. I believe you are seeing superficial similarities that someone like me for example would not even call "similarities."As for the “secret 8 leg method”, I have no idea what you are talking about. I know all there kicks in our system and unless you use your imagination and count different heights of the kicks and/or the position of your foot (inward or outward pointing etc) I can’t see how wing chun has 8 different kicks. But anyway…that’s a different story and I don’t want to discuss technicalities/techniques here as I see online forums as inadequate for that purpose.
Ah! here is the beef of the argument that will show how we are both right my friend. There are many layers to an art.
One person may see the hand skill and say: Thats the Lop Sao application and technique.
Someone else may look at it and say: Thats the cultivation of the tendons, sinews, wrist.
And another person may look at it and say: Hey, thats the Lao Gong and Meridian Tip’s development!
Now! Guess what! All three were correct. So, just because you say the above is application or techniques it doesn’t mean the other guys are not also correct.
