The Wing Chun Mystery

Hello,

Absolutely not. Not likely at all. I can’t see any similarity at all to our wing chun stance. Not only that, it looks like any basic qigong stance I have come across so far. Quite common in China and not specific to Emei. A qigong style called “wai dan gong”, which I have some familiarity with, uses the same exact stance and even similar shaking exercises. So, similar to other qigong systems. Absolutely. Similar to wing chun…only if you want to believe in it. You really need a lot of imagination to see any similarity to wing chun.

So if you fused that stance with White Crane San Chin (which has more heels out) what do you think the result would be?

Why does the SLT “need” emei technology? Qigong technology to make a superior martial art? Doubtful.

Ask Miao Shun your styles founder! :slight_smile: I dont think it makes anything superior BTW. Healthy! Thats a different story.

When wing chun people refer to “sae ying” or “hok ying” in wing chun they refer to shapes of techniques resembling the body of a snake (tan, fook, dap, biu, etc.) or the wings of a crane (various forms of bong sao, saat kiu etc.). “Ying” means “shape”, not “engine.”

We are talking about two different things. Engine is what is cultivate after training. Its the difference between Mantis Gan Tun Geng and Taiji Peng Ging and Wing Chun Chuk Geng. I dont care much about the shapes that all arts pretty much have.

Both are included in the SLT and both have nothing to do with Qigong specific things in wing chun. SLT teaching body structure, power generation, stance dynamics, upper and lower body connection…yes…of course. Qigong? Emei “engine”. Nope.

YKS maxims state differently. Sum Nung also felt adding Kidney Breath exercises was important. Were they not practical martialists? BTW: You do not need forms to develop what you mentioned IMO.

Yongchun baihe influence? Maybe, there seem to be some similarities and this hypothesis is much more likely than the emei connection, but most likely no direct connection in my opinion. They might have similar sources but why does wing chun have to come from white crane? There’s just no logic behind it.

Fung, Cho, Yip, Yuen, Leung Guan Moon, Mai Gei Wong, etc etc etc all claim Snake and Crane. If we had no Crane relations then how is it that the Wing Chun folks got along so well with the White Crane practitioners that were already on the Red Junk? Would another Martial family allow some strangers to come in an ahng out in those days? There must have been some common ground!

Let’s not forget that non of the “origin” stories actually say that wing chun was developed from some snake style or crane style. The stories always refer to the snake/crane fight. A real snake and a real crane. S

Symbolic.

ince some people here are referring to the wing chun origin stories to justify the crane connection, we might as well read those stories literally, keeping in my still that they are just stories and not historical truth.

Totally agree and am not saying that my article is Historical Fact. Just some connections and thoughts.

Come on Jim. Those aren’t and probably never have been part of the “classical” Yongchun white crane system. Here you have their official curriculum:

The person with the Long Pole is Lee Kiang from Taiwan. Look him and his art up. The other foto was given to me by the Wulin White Crane board rep as he inherit a White Crane lineage. Both are Whtie Crane practitioner and both have these aspects.

Can’t find a long pole and a wooden dummy there. The wooden dummy training, in my opinion, is the real treasure and core of wing chun and maybe the key to the real origin of our art.

Agree to disagree.

How come only wing chun and “weng” chun have such elaborate wooden dummy training? I’ve seen the whole weng chun system including all three weng chun wooden dummy forms and it is absolutely clear to me that both wing chun and weng chun come from the same source.

Me to man! Perhaps White Crane “Weng” Chun mother system that has 350 years of history.

If one sees the dummy forms alone, one might think that they come straight from some unknown “wing” chun branch instead of another martial art called “weng” chun. Same applies to application and concepts, including the center line concept and “whole body” power/connection concepts.

What type of Geng does Weng and Wing produce? What is the mother set of each art? I have footage of Lun Gai exchanging techinques with Koo Lo and White Crane. White Crane did their Dummy set on there and yes its similar. Centerline concepts is prety common in south fist.

So, did “weng” chun also come from a fusion of Yong chun white crane and emei? I highly doubt it.

I agree with you. Probally like all arts, evolution had its effect on them to! :wink:

Did both arts come from Shaolin? Again, no idea.

Shaolin or not Shaolin doens’t mean sqwat to me. Same goes for Emei. Name is just a name. Content is all I care about.

Were they created by martial arts experts as ingeniously effective martial arts? You bet. If these experts were at shaolin or elsewhere is really quite unimportant.

Yes! I agree again but nothing comes from Poooof out of the air and since there are written records from numerous families we can try to find a more plausible. Wing Chun is not that old man. There were only so many arts out there. We come from something.

Try to hit the rest of it asap.

:slight_smile:

Last section!

Damm! Long post!

This was directed towards HS but I was also included.

Funny, my toes are pointed in quite a bit and my weight control is just fine. It fits in just fine with the rest of my wing chun body structure and footwork, including the turning and stepping. Try having a one fist distance (or even less) between knees stance with your feet parallel. Then see what kind of “blockages” and physical comfort problems that will cause. Then try to turn left and right from your parallel foot stance into a pien san (turned) stance and then try to come back to the jing san (frontal) stance. Good luck! It really screws up wing chun body mechanics. I especially recommend this little exercise to Jim, as I know that the Gu Lo turning/stance is quite similar to our Sum Nung/YKS turning/stance.

Pin Sun and YKS are similar! Yes! Excessive heels out and knees in will only promote (in the long run) Bad Knees. Wing Chun is very famous for this and even some of their most repsected Masters have had this problem.

Feedback? The man says “it looks similar.” Nothing more. Look above for what that statement is worth. Confirmation from white crane? What confirmation? Did you find someone, who was there when some white crane people decided to use the “emei engine” to create wing chun? If not, how can you get “confirmation?” Even if some white crane guy said: “Yeah, I see lots of similarities between wing chun and white crane” that only means that there are similarities. Nothing more, nothing less. It does not mean, “wing chun must therefore come from white crane.” That is not a logical conclusion. Now..if white crane had a form called siu lin tao (or a dummy), which was very similar to ours…now THAT would be a different story. There’s just not any credible evidence. It’s all speculation at this point and should be presented as such instead of making it look like it’s the most likely version of what might have happened.

Confirmations to discuss:

Kuen Kuit match

Snake Sliding match

Inch Finger match

Trace the Taiji Circle match

8 Methods of the Leg match

etc. etc.. You seem to be discussing just how “impossible” it is for Wing Chun to “possibly” have connections to Snake and Crane. Thats ok. Why not discuss the content of the article of which the Common Grounds are discussed and if you do not agree with them that is ok. I look forward to what others feel are More Plausible matches based on art similarity.

And Sum Nung wing chun has the 12 san sik. Hung Gar has 12 Kiu Sao. Other systems have 12 this, 6 that, 108 this and that etc..etc…etc. If you have not noticed chinese numerology is the common denominator here and used extensively in totally unrelated martial arts, too. After all, these people lived in China and can’t escape its cultural influence.

Absolutely not likely. You’re trying to argue that both arts are similar/connected by pinning down your argument on two of the most common words in the chinese language: “small” and “big.” That’s a pretty weak argument. Do you have any idea how many chinese nouns/names/expressions have “siu/xiao” “dai/da” in them? Is it not logical then that two totally unrelated people/groups of people would use these very common words to describe two totally unrelated things? Remember, the most basic/easiest explanation is usually the right one. That’s what scientists go by anyway.

12 months. 12 signs of the Zodiac. Dont forget. Jesus also took on 12 men and 6 woman So maybe he is our founder! hahaha The more similarites we list the more we can discuss and use all our info. to roots.

Yes, very good position..with the toes in as the stance was meant to be performed. If you see anything else, then you are just seeing things that are not there. See above explanation why they would not have used any kind of “parallel” type stance similar to emei.

The heels and body does “internall” rest on the Yang side. Wing Chun stress it a bit more. I have seen both characters for “=”. The common one is more related to heels out. You are correct.

It just wasn’t meant that way by the founders of wing chun.

Cool. Who are they and what did they found the art on?

Let’s also not forget that the yee gee kim yeung ma is not specific to wing chun.

True

Wong Fei Hung line Hung gar’s tid sin kuen has the YGKYM and they perform it with their toes in. A rare branch of (probably very old) Hung Gar called “Ha say/sei fu” performs ALL their forms in YGKYM…and guess what? Toes are pointing in. So, Hung Gar was influenced by emei and white crane too? Hardly… It’s more likely that the YGKYM from wing chun and hung gar have some common, older source.

What then would be the difference between Hung Gar horse and Wing Chun horse? Are we just looking at the foto or what is going on inside the practitioner? there are only so many ways to algin and use the human body. Just because some stuff looks similar (your own form of debate with me) it does not mean the two are the same. What makes Hung Gar horse and Wing Chun horse their own unique thing?

So, that’s it for now. Trying to figure out the roots of our art is a noble and ambitious endeavor but let’s not forget for what purpose wing chun was created for when examining all available evidence.

Lets examine the evidence presented in the article about Biu Jee, 8 Leg, Snake arm, etc… I would like to find another possible Snake (or any) system with these Signature Wing Chun elements in it.

Hey! Awesome post! Thanks so much for contributing to this discussion!

Peace,

originally posted by Mustafa
Can’t find a long pole and a wooden dummy there. The wooden dummy training, in my opinion, is the real treasure and core of wing chun and maybe the key to the real origin of our art. How come only wing chun and “weng” chun have such elaborate wooden dummy training? I’ve seen the whole weng chun system including all three weng chun wooden dummy forms and it is absolutely clear to me that both wing chun and weng chun come from the same source. If one sees the dummy forms alone, one might think that they come straight from some unknown “wing” chun branch instead of another martial art called “weng” chun. Same applies to application and concepts, including the center line concept and “whole body” power/connection concepts. So, did “weng” chun also come from a fusion of Yong chun white crane and emei? I highly doubt it. Did both arts come from Shaolin? Again, no idea. Were they created by martial arts experts as ingeniously effective martial arts? You bet. If these experts were at shaolin or elsewhere is really quite unimportant.
Hello Mustafa,
Your conclusions seem to come from experience and reason instead of relying on far fetched theories and hypothesis that may or may not have anything in common, good for you. Now on the other hand…

originally posted by Jim Roselando
Agree to disagree.
Mustafa,
This was the point Jim was supposed to say aaha but. Yet as you see once again he couldn’t there is no argument for Yik Kam or white crane when you bring experience and reason into the conversation. Mustafa, what do you know of Cho Ga Wing Chun, do you think it is reasonable to think that Yik Kam only having learned SLT may have had a need to mix his wing chun with Emei and Fukian White Crane perhaps.

Jim,

Agree with you reply on clamping the knees.

IMHO, my view on this issue is here,
http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=416
so I dont have to repeat the typing.

Confirmations to discuss:

Kuen Kuit match

Snake Sliding match

Inch Finger match

Trace the Taiji Circle match

8 Methods of the Leg match---------

I like to use an old song to present my view on these above matching and more to come..

windflowers, my father told me not to go near them
he said he feared them always and he told me that they carried him away

windflowers, beautiful windflowers, I couldn’t wait to touch them
to smell them I held them closely and now I cant break away

their sweet boutque disappears like the vapor in the desert
so…take them away son…

windflowers…ancient windflowers their beauty captures every
young dreamer who lingered near them
ancient windflowers I love you

I guess you cant break away now and lots of others have big fear of even go near them…

As for the

First of all, let’s remember what wing chun really is. It’s a fighting system. You don’t have to be a genious to see that all parts of the wing chun system were created for the sole purpose of making the practitioner a very effective fighter.

my opinions are as the following.

1, the above is a very western or modern view, 100 years ago, the chinese will call this type of view extreme.

See, classical Chinese’s thinking mid set is based on Tee and Yong or Yin and Yang. or Body and application inseperatable.

For example, when they think about a BMW they think both the “run” of the car and the engine which can power the driving/ run.

So, in this case, a certain type of martial application needs a certain type of enginee or power platform to power it.

instead of thinking about how fast the BMW run but have no concern about how/what type of the engine is going to power the “run”. That is a no no in 100 years ago and further because the chinese believe in Balance or harmony or tee and yong. Look at TaiJi, Yee Chuan… all comes with Tee and Yong. even Traditional Chinese medicine one still can learn about this mind set. it is not about oh you sick take this do that… or if the hand sick take care of hand, if the head sick take care the head. no, they deal with tee yong and there is where the Wu Shing comes in for balancing.

Thus, IMHO, there are lots of so called WCK theory today can be filtered away just based on the Tee Yong mid set. Beause 100 years ago and beyond, chinese dont think like what we think. and if the wck theory doesnt follow the ancient mind set but the modern thinking then we know, it is a moder creation. so, there are signature which can differentiate lots of stuffs contradict to some believe we cant trace.

2, the kuen kuit said, " Comes accept, Goes send it back, set free move forward, using silence to lead/manage action". This clearly show it is a Flow art or NON Struggle art. Figthing is a Struggle concept. that doesnt fit into the Flow art.

So, similar to the power signature, the Awareness vesus predictive DNA, here another type of DNA, Flow vesus struggle DNA.

See, Awareness, Flow or NON Struggle all come hand in hand, as for predictive, struggle, Anti. those are from a different camp of art.

The abstract kuen kuit of Emei 12 zhuang said, …" gentlely neutralized the enermy within split of any inch.." that is how not struggle one is.

So, IMHO, the idea is mastering the Details via SLT, then applied the Non Struggle " " Comes accept, Goes send it back, set free move forward, using silence to lead/manage action". there one get into the same realm of “gentlely neutralized the enermy within split of any inch..”

So, again, the fighting or struggling or this technics against that or anti that is not what the ancestors preaching because we all know and learn about “Comes accept, Goes set it back, set free move forward, using silence to lead/manage action” it doesnt tell us to rush and struggle and fight…"

see the effectiveness comes from cultivate the Tee, mastering the Yong, and being limitless and flow. What fighting? one doesnt fight and struggle, one just flow. That is the idea.

One cant belive in the principle of flow but practicing struggling and fighting. Also one cant “run” without know and having an “enginee”

One just dont want to drive a BMW like a yugo.

Just my two cents.

windflowers, my father told me not to go near them
he said he feared them always and he told me that they carried him away

windflowers, beautiful windflowers, I couldn’t wait to touch them
to smell them I held them closely and now I cant break away

their sweet boutque disappears like the vapor in the desert
so…take them away son…

windflowers…ancient windflowers their beauty captures every
young dreamer who lingered near them
ancient windflowers I love you

Hey Mustafa,

Thanks for showing people how to rationally debate a topic without having to resort to personal attacks. :slight_smile:

I’m still a little stuck on the YJKYM myself. Again, if in the early 1900s, less than 50 years after the Red Junk, many of the WCK ancestors had a sustantial “toe in” and were clamping their knees to 1-fist, how does that (or doesn’t that) correlate? It’s about 100 years since then now, and many of us still do it, so time/drift alone is not an answer.

Also, again, the positions used for WCK are idealized for combat, many of which are counter to conventional Qigong/health positioning, so there’s exploration to be done there.

[edited to alleviate stooping]

commenting on the stance only. I have posted this before. Unless a wing chun person is different physically than all other humans the stance for all activities that transmit energy up from the ground through the torso and arms must be the same. This is easy to prove. you will find that olympic lifting uses the same body structure ,same alignment and same breathing as wing chun. this includes inhale ab area in,area around kidneys expands internal organs give feeling of moving up,arms not tense but moving in a whip like way only tensing at the top of the lift . Lift done by lower body sending energy up and out the arms. Golg,wrestling baseball,football(proper line blocking technique) is all taught the same way as wing chun by those trainers that train the highest level athletes. Bending the body as in wrestling does not change what the core is doing.

You can not do any of these activities with any degree of success with the 1 fist stance. the fact that some can make the stance work does not make it correct.

Where did the stance come from? From what I was taught it was a designed as a way to train some how to sink energy into the ground. When you absorb incoming force the and sink the knees naturally move in a forward and in manner. this can give the look of moving the knees in to 1 fist apart. Somewhere along the way a training method became the method for actual use.

Also so far Hendricks creation theory. It is the only one I have seen that combines physical evidence and meets the historical proveable facts. Not creation myths and conjecture. This doesnt make it true but it does fit. It will be interesting to see if any other theories ever come forth with physical and historical proof.

Tony why do you keep after the Cho only had SLT not the 3 forms when it has pointed out for years that their 1 form contains the 3 in it. This is no different than when Andreas Hoffman pointed out that thier SBF was also handed down as 1 form that contained all the ellements of the 3 forms of wing chun. Also many other wing chun families say that originally there was 1 form that was made into 3.

originally posted by hunt1
Tony why do you keep after the Cho only had SLT not the 3 forms when it has pointed out for years that their 1 form contains the 3 in it. This is no different than when Andreas Hoffman pointed out that thier SBF was also handed down as 1 form that contained all the ellements of the 3 forms of wing chun. Also many other wing chun families say that originally there was 1 form that was made into 3.
Hunt1,
In case you missed it let me quote rene for you.

originally posted by reneritchie
Yik Kam supposedly did the same WCK as Wong Wah-Bo.

Lets just say there is a good reason he keeps that in there.
Seondly some of the physical evidence that indicate the difference between white crane and wing chun is the stance and the footwork. hendrik demonstrated this at the friendship gathering. This is true you can see the difference no argument there.

http://home.vtmuseum.org/timeline/2001/jan12-14_2001.php

So yes when hendrik says that Yik Kam mixed Fukian White Crane with Emie 12 Zhuang with his SLT it makes perfectly good sense to me why Yik Kam SLT is different than the other 4 branches of wing chun. But this theory of white crane and emie snake and crane only makes sense applied to Cho Ga Wing Chun because as you see the other stances clearly are more closely related and hendrik and his stance are the odd man out.

Tony you may be right. from the angle the pictures were taken I cant tell much about the stance differences. You have an advantage I have never met hendrick or seen his wing chun but from what he has written his wing chun seems to share much in common with what i was taught. However all wing chun I have personally seen has much in common.

As an aside if you talk to my good friend Phil Romero and see his wing chun you will find a great deal that is in common with hendrick even though his wing chun is from Hawkins Cheung. Much depends on what a teacher shows a student and traditionally not all students were given the same material.

One other thing there is a white crane wooden dummy. It is not common and from what i understand was only passed down to select students. I

Emei etc

Acceptance/no-acceptance of a theory is a matter of individual choice. Mustafa/Jim and hendrik have done a good job in presenting their positions.
Agree with Hunt1- unless new evidence emerges- the Jim R and hendrik postions
seem reasonable to date- because they make a good attempt to tie in some detailed
issues of function, motion. energy and structure… rather than lineage assertions
on lineage history..

However, i have also pointed out in the past that there can be overgeneralizations- since different lineages do different things…some do “orbit” but do not use that(hendrik’s) term-but circulate energy from the center well.Differences in labels, words and language.
Functionally, from my POV and non ideologically-not all is new.Not all folks have a fistwide knee stance- not all folks have a broken enrgy connection.

There have been giants in wing chun-Leung Jan, Ip man etc- since the early Ming/Ching conflicts in the evolution of wing chun.

joy chaudhuri

Hey all,

With regards to the 1 fist distance. I have a couple of thoughts!

Can you Believe that! hahahaha

:eek:

Day one you show up to class and your taught the Ma. 1st distance, pull up stomache blah blah. You train your WCK sets for years and years and years. Is your body the same Day one as it is Year Five or Year Ten?

The basics are the basics but are we slaves to them?

If you look at the White Crane or San Chin Tri-Post ma you see the classic Heel/Toe (or sometimes longer) with heels out alignment. Common to South Fist. Now, lets say a Soft art guy (maybe Miao Shun) who does the Yin Yang relationship Wuji type ma learns that method. Take the Front foot and Slide it back so its about in the YJKYM right? The blend of the Soft component could be the sign of the Snake element. Look at GM Fu’s Ma. His knees are fist distance but his horse is also flexible as you can see from his other demonstration. This is an Alive ma and not a Bolted down ma similar to Tri Post Heel out method.

Check out GM Fung Chun. He is demonstrating a few of what we call our basics. He opens in the compact tight knees ma for the show but watch how he settle into the Horse! As soon as he does the Picture Snap the Shot 1st distance he settles in. Why? His body has been cultivated so what at one time may have needed to be a bit more gross is now comfortably just there thanks to his internal make up being developed.

http://www.ee.cuhk.edu.hk/~ymfung/kulo/PoAUoo/poauoo.html

Click on the Hi or Lo links.

With regards to the on going one form or three forms blah blah. The number of forms only matters if you have something attached to that. Otherwise its the Cultivation that the training provides that is important and not the Names or Numbers of sets.

Hunt mentioned the White Crane WC Jong being only taught to select pupils. According to Wuli White Crane lineage heir this is correct. It was not something that the every day Joe Smoe was taught.

Evolution of an art is un-stopable! If we look back and accross numerous lineages we many common grounds. We should be able to use GM Fu and Shaolin Abbot as examples for all of us. The two head honchos help each other so the best thing we can do is eliminate the names attached to the arts and look more for common grounds and signatures that can be backed up with historical records as much as possible. If, “if”, White Crane and Snake were the two components that means WC’s roots are based in Two Giants of Chinese Health and Martial science. This would also make for a major Paridigm shift in the technology of its time which “could” have contributed to the legends of WC being the art of its time.

:slight_smile:

Peace,

Hi Tony,

I use the word “supposedly” because, lacking a time machine, that’s all any of us can do. IMHO, its when people and groups forget those important little caveats, and begin to think they and they alone speak the Truth(R), that we start to have problems. So, yes “supposedly”, just like, supposedly, there was WCK on the red junks…

Thanks for the kind words on Legends of Wingchun http://www.wingchunkuen.com. It really was a labor of love on my part. I wanted (and want) to share the many, many legends of our great family of arts, and as you know, just about every branch has at least one legend tracing back to Shaolin, be it through Ng Mui, Jee Shim, or Yat Chum. It’s part of all of our culture.

Unfortunately, the bucks have been anything but quick. Hopefully one day I’ll break even, maybe get up to minimum-wage level for all the hours I’ve put in over the many, many years! (Alas, I doubt I’ll ever get anywhere close to the organization with their books, videos, certification programs, disciple fees, etc…)

BTW - I don’t happen to agree (yet) with either Hendrik’s or the VTM’s theories, but I do think both your group and Hendrik would do better sharing your own work than worrying so much about each other. We all benefit, agree or disagree, no matter who (if anyone) is eventually thought to be right or wrong.

Thanks Jim!

That makes sense from a physical development PoV (postural therapy exercises can be done that way).

Do either Emei or White Crane use a progression from 1-fist-distance?

RR,

Awesome post.

Peace,

originally posted by hunt1
Much depends on what a teacher shows a student and traditionally not all students were given the same material.

Hunt1,
Now there is a position no one can argue against. It is easy to agree with that position just as it is easy to agree with Jim and hendrik when they say Cho Ga Wing Chun is the sum of Yik Kam slt + Fukian White Crane + Emei 12 Zhuang, for who are we to question someone else in regard to their lineage.

The Problem comes in when hendrik tries to tell everyone that this means all Wing Chun is coming from this fusion of arts. No we don’t have to agree but if everyone is entitled to their own history then hearing Jim and hendrik report their findings as anything other than having to refer to Cho Ga Wing Chun is not only disrespectful but insulting to most people’s intelligence as well seeing that there are 4 other families that all say the same thing meaning there is a ratio of 4 to 1 on what is most likely the history of wing chun which was posted early but not once argued against.

Hello Rene,
Earlier you said we don’t know what Leung Yee Tai practiced because no lineages exists through him. We know Wong Wah-Bo was his teacher. So you are suggesting you are willing to follow hendrik and Jim down this deadend path but you have no idea what Leung Yee Tai learned interesting. Secondly suggesting that Yik Kam being the Junior to both Wong Wah-Bo and Leung Yee Tai as trivial means your study of Chinese history is very inadequate an in need of much assistance from a new source.

originally posted by reneritchie
…and as you know, just about every branch has at least one legend tracing back to Shaolin, be it through Ng Mui, Jee Shim, or Yat Chum. It’s part of all of our culture.
Yes it is clear from my post that this is understood but your post did leave some doubt as to if you remembered this fact glad to see you do.
originally posted by reneritchie
Unfortunately, the bucks have been anything but quick. Hopefully one day I’ll break even, maybe get up to minimum-wage level for all the hours I’ve put in over the many, many years! (Alas, I doubt I’ll ever get anywhere close to the organization with their books, videos, certification programs, disciple fees, etc…)

ooops now here you just sound bitter. Though not being a Leung Ting myself it is possible there might be some truth to the saying we all get what we deserve in the end. However, you are young enough to know your best days are in front of you focus on the truth and no one can question or doubt and remember that happiness is a state of mind.

originally posted by reneritchie

BTW - I don’t happen to agree (yet) with either Hendrik’s or the VTM’s theories, but I do think both your group and Hendrik would do better sharing your own work than worrying so much about each other. We all benefit, agree or disagree, no matter who (if anyone) is eventually thought to be right or wrong.
Rene,
Good and valid points, if you see a discrepency in Jim’s work and you point it out along with what you agree with then your words would carry more weight just my own opinion there. But please believe me when I say there has not been one ounce of sleep lost worrying about hendrik and his theory. Most people don’t really care about history we know this. For those of us that do not only do we truly understand how implausible hendrik’s theory really is we also see things in the systems themselves a little differently than most. hendrik is a prime example of this its just that we see these things very differently because he is biased toward Cho Ga which is expected and understandable. With that insight though comes a responsibility which it looks like hendrik is willing to cross the question is are you.

One More Time

Hey all,

Hello Rene,
Earlier you said we don’t know what Leung Yee Tai practiced because no lineages exists through him. We know Wong Wah-Bo was his teacher.

ROFLOL

We do? Prove it! Show us the “We Know” evidence so we can discuss it.

Funny how your info is so 100% solid. Did you recently by an old Delorian (sp?) from Back to the Future? Please let us know where its parked.

:smiley:

Known Fact so far:

Yip Man

Yuen Kay San

Yuen Chai Wan

Leung Jan

Cho’s

Fung’s

Etc.

All state the original set was one long set that was later broken into three sets and all say the art is Snake and Crane. This would be a union of Military and Monk systems. See, if the two camps work together you can actually find common ground in theory.

Leung Yee Tai was supposed to have done the One Set. Leung Jan had Two Sifu’s. This is the birth of the Koo Lo story of the Woman’s style and Man’s style Wing Chun arts. Hinting that there is more than one version with diffferent DNA. Arts evolve.

The division of the set “more likely” occured with Wong Wah Bo. Since the Male’s playing Femal rolesin the Opera both did One set. The troup senior Wong Wah Bo was “rumored” to have had White Crane training already!! Male Female WC story. And! If someone believes Wong Wah Bo taught Leung Yee Tai then it is not “”“Unreasonable to believe or Speculate”“” that he also taught more of his classmates/juniors that preserve the three fist sets today. Perhaps (notice how I didn’t say “We Know”), Perhaps it was Wong Wah Bo who taught Hung Gun Biu. Hun Gun is a nickname for Red Bandana if memory serves me which was what the Red Boat troup “all” were wearing when they rebel into the streets. Didn’t Lee Man Mao lead the troup in the uprising? Wasn’t he a Crane guy?

Dai Fa Min Kam did not do Wing Chun but rather Weng Chun so we can count him out. Yet, this is important as it shows there was “TWO” arts on the Junks associating with each other and developing. Amazing considering the times. What was their reason for friendship? A common ground must have been so its not un-reasonable to wonder if it was their common roots.

Pao Fa Lin is a known modern expressions of Wing Chun. We can count them out. Many state its a fusion with Taiji and Hung Kuen blended.

Pan Nam did both Wing and later Weng. His historical info. comes mainly from Weng and not Wing. Yet! He does claim a number of systems that were part of the Yat Chum development. Arts like Eagle Claw, Taiji and other stuff. Thats great but since we know he is using Weng and not Wing history we have to take it for what it is. Weng and not Wing.

The HFY web site has this theory being discussed as listed under Red Boat era Wing Chun. HFY is listed on a seperate discussion board. It is going to be normal for us not to agree. I respect your POV but we will have to agree to disagree. We should just leave the histories out and just focus on the technical. It will be more productive. All I took was the different stories common theme and try to locate a couple of possiblities. Its just more to think about. This article also gave us all more time to chat again.

Back to the technical stuff. Both sides now state the speculative history. Lets leave the rest for tangible stuff.

Kuen Kuit, Snake Arm, 8 Methods, Trace Circle etc..

What other art has this signature WCK stuff?

Regards,

You have an advantage I have never met hendrick or seen his wing chun -------

Hunt, that depend, there are those who met me and share with me such as Joy, Robert Chu, Rene, KJ, JIm, Pual…etc.

There are those “think” they know me and my stuffs and love to speculate but have no clue who am I.

anyone wants to know about me can read about me in post such as

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=Forums&file=viewtopic&t=332&start=0

or ask Jim to comment on what I am like or how is if one takes a snap short on me doing the SLT of Yik Kam Lineage compare with Gm Fu’s style. (not kungfu, Fu is prof, I am amature. but similarity and different of style teaching)… so you all can get a feel. instead of reading all kind of speculation.

but from what he has written his wing chun seems to share much in common with what i was taught. However all wing chun I have personally seen has much in common. --------

Coffee is coffee, Wing Chun is Wing Chun. doesnt matter what lineage, if it is coffee, then it taste coffee.

As an aside if you talk to my good friend Phil Romero and see his wing chun you will find a great deal that is in common with hendrick even though his wing chun is from Hawkins Cheung.

Much depends on what a teacher shows a student and traditionally not all students were given the same material.--------

This is definately.

When Late sifu Cho Hung-Choy teaches me YJKYM. I ask him how come I dont clamp my knees and… as others… etc

he told me,… Tai Kong (ascend the anus), Suk San (suck in the genetal), Sau Fok (keep back the lower abs) . [ Do not try this, there are more process I didnt describe here, so, it is not as simple as just lifting the anus as some have heard. there are lots to it to handle, otherwise, it can cause problem in breathing. to know about the term is one thing. to use the mind to direct to do them is other, to be able to Orbit and naturally flow with it without thinking is another thing… so, use the mind is not the same with can doing it without thinking.)

and after taught me these, he checked two points of my body to make sure I did it correct.

So, indeed not all student was given the same material…

In that frendship seminal, I threw a curve ball out when I did my SLT to see who notice it. Later, a few person come and ask me about what I did at the begining of the SLT… some notice how I work with the lower abs…