Shaolin and Wing Chun informative...

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

Taken from “Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen” thread.

Originally posted by Phenix
[B]Savi,

Emei 12 zhuang is as old as 700/800 years old.
White Crane from Fujian is being around 1660’s.

So what paradigm shift do you belive which surpassed these two system? In addition, the 12 Zhuang has a direct link to Esoteric Buddhism, with its legacy… I will be really happy to hear your part of hypothesis and evidents. [/B]

I am not quite sure what you mean by “surpassed these two system?” or how you came to the conclusion I believed this to be true in the first place. I assure you I make no assumptions about this. I do believe I can share with everyone information which is already published in magazines, and I MUST stress the fact that I am only speaking on my own opinions and experience. Nothing more. I will address the ‘paradigm shift’ in another post.

To all, if I may share some observations about HFY and Shaolin with the intent on being informative…

Referencing an ‘animals’ connection from Kung Fu Qigong Sept/Oct 2001 issue as a source.

In HFY lore, Fukien White Crane was one of the several kung fu families to come through the Hung Fa Ting. The others being Southern Mantis, White Eyebrow, Weng/Wing Chun, and Dragon Fist. Thusfar in my studies of Hung Fa Yi combat applications, Mantis and Crane are apparent [to me] in form and application. I am not familiar with White Eyebrow, but alot of the Dragon’s principles and concepts closely parallel that of principles and concepts of the WC I am learning. Note, I have studied in the Shaolin arts prior to my Wing Chun training, but not at a scholastic level, merely mechanical and a touch of the philosophic and strategic.

For example, let me use the Dragon Fist to compare with my WC experience to as I have had some MINIMAL training in Dragon kung fu. Both the Dragon style and HFYWC hold true to the tactics of (in my own words):

  1. Searching and waiting for/to attack,
  2. ‘sticking to’ and ‘deflecting’ attacks,
  3. ‘simultaneous offense and defense’,
  4. ‘chasing the fallen enemy’ with continuous footwork.

I am not familiar with the exact Kuen Kuit of the Dragon family. Well, any family aside from my WC family’s kuen kuit to be truthful.

There are also numerous techniques that share in appearance similar hand structures and strategy in application to the Mantis and Crane families of kung fu for example. The ‘Crane’s beak’ and the ‘Fuk Sau’ are utilized in the ‘head-to-waist’ area of the body and are both linear and circular in motion. Also keep in mind that every motion of HFY is bound to HFY’s definition of ‘HFY’ structure, which is why I made use of the word ‘similar’ and not ‘exact’.

To Jim Roselando: What I find to explain the difference in body structure from ‘traditional Shaolin structure’ and WC (HFY in particular) is that of HFY’s way of defining human structure. to be further explained in the upcoming HFY book.

So here I have shared some of my observations which are entirely my own, with regards to techincal and mechanical parallels to particular families of kung fu who have a common lore of historical origin. To me, this lends (however minor, it’s an opinion) more supporting facts to the time period of Wing Chun’s birth in the 17th century, due to the strengths of the similarity. I understand that these observations do not PROVE anything, so please do not accuse me of trying to do such!

These parallels [mentioned] strengthen my belief that Hung Fa Yi originates from the Southern Shaolin Temple. Due to the fact that many people say a name is just a name what have you, I will not go into the close parallel of “Hung Fa Yi” and “Hung Fa Ting” although it is tremendously important. There is a great history behind it.

I would like to say this should another war here start (god forbid, let’s stay civil please!)… on a side note about HFY articles. I have experienced the integrity of the Hung Fa Yi family, and because of the character displayed by them in person, I see that as the first reason NOT to attack their lore. They uphold their name, in particular Yi, as in ‘Righteousness’. I have reread the articles published over the past few years on Hung Fa Yi because of the accusations against us. I have not come across one article that has failed to state that what is being presented is based on oral traditions and lore, or qualified with the phrase “according to Hung Fa Yi history.” So when I think about it, some people’s accusations and false claims against the HFY trying to pass a ‘blanket truth’ do not hold…

Respectfully,
-Savi.

2

Hi Savi!

I never said you are trying to PROVE anything. The one time I mentioned your name was as a good example of what others should do!

I believe I told Rolling Hand to “Learn from Savi”! Alteast he discussed his beliefs!

I actually applaud you for being level headed enough to discuss versus spew nonsense like others do. Too many people chime in and just simply waste time.

The 1-4 principles you laid out are common among south fist arts! Many parallels will be found with this sort of information. I trained the Jook Lum Gee South Mantis for a short period. The skills, kuit, etc. are similar but many other principles go against WC theory of combat.

Perhaps we should just pick one topic and go from there!

How about the first form of most south fist art and most okinawan arts that come from south china. Som Bo Gin (three step arrow) Also known as the 3 battles, vibration form, san chin etc.. How and when do you feel the WC art went on its new way of thinking and discarded to Som Bo Gin to come up with Siu Lin Tao?

Looking forward to an adult discussion!

Regards,

3

Three Step Arrow.

Jim,
Since I’m sure there are several people who are not familiar with the San Bo Gin, would you mind giving an explanation of it? As you’ve actually studied it, that might be extremly helpful to this discussion. Just a suggestion…

4

Hello,

Som Bo Gin is the mother form of the south fist arts. It name has a few meanings hidden behind the basic numerology of the set. Moving forward in life with your Kung Fu etc.. The basics of the set would be fundamental skills, gathering and releasing of power, short power follow up hitting, centerline and bi-lateral striking, different breathing methods for the set (natural and holding), dip gwat kung swallow spit, stretching and contracting, turn around footwork, left and right covering and a finishing salutation refered to as Shung Har Jung (high,low,middle) which makes reference to Heaven Earth and Man.

The set is quite amazing. Very powerful and effective Kung Fu. You can see different versions (off-shoots) even in some Okinawan arts with their San Chin. The crane vibration set. etc.

Watching it looks just like most south fist. Open up, walk forward with three advances, cover and turn left/right and back the other way.

Brilliant Kung Fu! The problem is that some of the Mantis contradicts the WC so I stopped doing it. Also, (the main reason) one art was more than enough. Two arts will confuse the hand and cause Chop Suey since they are too similar in many ways!

Regards,

5

To Jim.

Hey Jim! I was hoping you would catch on to this thread. I know what your intentions were about using me as an example too. The ‘Prove’ thing issue, was not directed towards you at all. We’re cool yo. That was more in reference to others who have a history of attacking me, so I had to disclose my understanding to those people.

I will discuss some more things with my sihingdai regarding Saam Jin Bo tonight, I’m familiar with ‘this’ particular term. I’m not exactly sure it is quite the same thing you are referencing. Based on your description, it doesn’t sound like it is.

Talk to you later tonight or tomorrow.
-Savi.

6

One more thing

Hey Jim,
Sorry I forgot to ask, could you share one or two idioms of Mantis that are and one or two more that aren’t consistent with the WC you know? I’m very curious about it.

Again, we’ll talk laterz. Thanks in advance.
-Savi.

7

Hung Mun source-- Hung Fa Ting found

Originally posted by Savi
[B]Taken from “Hung Mun and Tai Tzu Kuen” thread.

In HFY lore, Fukien White Crane was one of the several kung fu families to blossom from the Hung Fa Ting.

[/B]

Hi Savi,

Here I have a picture for you from my Hung Mun book.

In this picture it is said "

Hung Mun (Tien Tee Hui) source from Fujian’s Sao An Chang Lin Temple. That was the time of Qing emperor Kang Xi year of 13th (1674). Monk Dao Chong is the host united and found the Tien Tee Hui or so called Hung Mun’s " HUng FA Ting united. This is a picture of Dao Chong.

See, people have found where is the source of Tien Tee Hui or Hung Fa Ting.

And, if you look at the white crane from Fujian. it was founded at between 1644 and 1662. by Fang Chi-Niang at fujian Fu Ning. At 1683, Bai Cieh of Taiwan bring the inch jing method of Fujien White crane back to China.

So, the question is how Fukien White Crane was to blossom from the Hung Fa Ting? Since THe Hung Mun was found in 1674 which is later then 1644 - 1662? And White Crane of Fujan is founded by Fang Chi-Niang.

What is the paradigm shift of martial art in the Chang Lin temple (Long forest temple) of Sao An ?

By the way, my home town in Fujian from my dad side is happen to be Sao An. And in Sao An no one practice Siu Lin Tau. Beside me when I went back for visit :smiley:

Sandman2,

how come my picture didn’t go through?
it is just 102k

8

Hendrik

>>how come my picture didn’t go through?
>>it is just 102k

try converting the file into a gif, it may shrink the size a bit.

Or send me the picture and see what I can do.

9

Savi,

Here is another sample of record on where and which branch of Hung Mun in China since 1700’s.

We have lots and lots of data these days…

10

Here it comes the picture for Savi.

My neighbour in Sao An Fujian . I don’t even dream Hong Fa Ting is at my home town.

:smiley:

Thanks to YLee

11

see how Chow Yun Fat uses his Tan Sau!

got to go to this one with my son :slight_smile:

http://www.mgm.com/bulletproofmonk/

if you truely believe…LOL!

it is like Matrix, Suk San and Chow’s classic action movies all in one.

12

YY,

They should make one with emei 12 zhuang and SLT…

as you know the switch focus to mai…
the heat traveling…
the transform in to light and broken ligth. into emptiness…
beyond physical…
the 9 states of achivements…
then the emptiness of beyond space and time… get back to Ommm… the illuminating and cristal like rainbow body

good scifi…

13

Hello Savi,

Ok! My misunderstanding! (Cool Yo) :slight_smile: hehehe

Some Mantis maxims! Ok

Hand to hand, hear to heart, you dont come, I wont start, you attack and I will hit first and continuous until you are red or down.

How about this! I will attach a link for you and a write up for you! The write up is quite long so I had to make it into two posts! “Enjoy” This is my old Mantis sifu and friend. He is truly amazing and his martial skill is second to none.

http://www.bambootemple.com/txtidx.htm

Regards,

14

About Southern Praying Mantis

This style is connected by similarity with the Fukien Crane, Wing Chun, Dragon Shadow, and White Eyebrow styles (as well as the Okinawan Karate styles). Its technique is based on a deep rooted firm upright stance, straight forward explosive force (of a sticky nature) and the use of turning or borrowing power with small deflective angles, circles and hooks.

Practitioners emulate the mantis fighting posture by extending their hands forward, with the elbows slightly bent and tucked in close to protect the centerline - like a mantis. The feet are separated by the distance of about 18-24 inches, shoulder width apart, with the bent lead leg supporting most of the weight, while the slightly curved leg acts as a strut.

A single movement of the arm may contain several actions. Tactical operations of the hand include grappling, catching, holding, capturing, clasping with the forearms, slicing strikes with the knuckles, pressing with the elbow, sudden quick pushes with both hands, spearing with extended fingers, flicking of the hands in quick jabs, exploding fingers from the fists, jerking the opponent’s arm, slicing and chopping with the edge of the palm, hooking and deflecting hands, elbow strikes, claw-like raking actions, and poking with the back of the hands. Many of the movements are simultaneously defensive and offensive. The feet, ankles, knees and hips may mirror the hand movements.

In my teaching, the principle of intent or “will-power” is first discussed. Intent may simply be defined as the “warrior spirit.” Without it, their is no focus of the body and mind into one purpose. Rooting and centering are next discussed. Rooting is the skill of developing the force of one thousand pounds in the feet. With it, the stance is as firm as Mt. Tai and not easily moved. Without it, the power of the fist will be stagnated in the chest and one’s feet will not be steady. Centering is the development of the root. It is the lowering of the center of gravity within the body. It is accomplished by breathing and correct body structure.

Body structure is a key element. Like a triangle, one must develop a base in relationship with the other parts. In the body it is a sinking power. If the stance is too wide, too narrow, too long or too short, the center will be unstable. Imagine an upside down triangle standing on it’s tip and you can see the slightest force will cause it to topple. This is a floating center and should be avoided.

Many styles mimic the movements of animals, but the Jook Lum Mantis is based on the structure of the human being. The practicer stands upright with the feet firmly placed heel to toe 18-24 inches apart. Gathered through the feet and up the legs and back, the power is expressed in the hands. This produces a live springy power (action-reaction force in a sticky way). It is produced by the whole body in spiraling motions, as a spring is twisted and then released. It is the function of the hand and foot arriving at the target intently at the same time. There is a saying, “any deficiency of power in the hand, can be found in the root and center.”

Being that the structure of this kungfu is based on the natural movements of man and the hand movements of a mantis, the style’s form and function express themselves as one. How many times have we seen dozens of different stylists, all practicing their various forms, only to enter the fighting competition and become indistinguishable from each other? That is to say, that their form and function is not the same. Jook Lum Mantis is one style that exhibits form and function inseparably.

Once found, one must learn to move the center while remaining stable in all positions. This is the function of stepping and is based on the body structure and the use of power in attack and defense with the feet, shins, knees and hips. Jook Lum has both linear and circular stepping such as three steps forward, four corners and eight directions.

Once a rooted stance is developed and one is able to move the center of his body by stepping forcefully and agressively without a break in the root, he may learn to “box” using the hand. When the stance is rooted and one can move the center, it is said the whole body has become a hand.

The mantis arm is composed of three “hands;” from the shoulder to the elbow, from the elbow to the wrist and from the wrist to the fingertips. A good mantis will use his “second hand” for control by pressing the forearm into the centerline of his prey, at the same time striking a vital area with his “first” hand or fingers.

In my teaching, I first introduce 18 hands individually, one by one, combined with the steps. One learns this as a single man exercise but quickly begins two man, “partners,” practice in offense and defense. This is “attaching to the center of the opponent and controlling him.” These 18 hands can be likened to the alphabet. A follows B turns to C, etc. Once the alphabet is learned, we can make words, which make sentences, which make paragraphs and books and so on. At last, the practicers arrive at 18 continuous hand combinations.

By daily training and repitition, of these hands offensively and defensively in high, low, middle, left, right, center and back positions, the mind and body will gradually come to an instinctual action or reaction based on the “partners” intent. It is too late if one must think in combat. Ancillary exercises during the basic training are numerous. Of course, standard exercises include kicking, sweeping, chinna, grappling, ground fighting and the likes, but more specific Jook Lum exercises such as two man internal strengthening, two man body conditioning, sticky elbows, hooking hands and ging power explosive force are also included. And there are numerous two man “sticky-feeling-controlling” exercises.

Sticky training is to learn relaxation. It is the ability to not blink when being struck. It is attaching to the center of the opponent’s being, neither pushing into nor pulling away from him. It is being perfectly attacthed in stillness and motion. Feeling hand is the result of sticky hand. One must learn to neither anticipate the opponents movement or telegraph his own. Feeling hand is the reading of the opponents intent. It is as if the hand (body) has an eye of it’s own. Controlling hand is the result of feeling hand. It is the jamming, trapping and deflecting and attacking of the opponents intent. This is done based on the control points of the body. The motto, is “hand to hand, heart to heart, you don’t come, I won’t start.” (The hands are placed (chambered) above the heart and the elbows cover the ribcage to protect the internal organs).

Once the basics are learned, next is taught the form Lah Sao (or loose hands). It is a short, medium and long range two man (A-B) hand set with low kicks, high kicks and sweeping. Although the form is based on stickiness, there are three separations of the two men. Both sides (A-B) must be learned by both men as one continuous “round” to complete the form. Next is the basic form, “three steps forward.” It strengthens the structure and teaches gathering, exploding and borrowing power. It is followed by the two man “three steps forward” form. It is the application of all the principles and philosophy in a realistic way.

This is followed by the “five fist” form. It is four directional and includes the evasion of takedowns and sweeping. Next is the two man “five fist” set where the skills are further refined. Moi Fa, follows and is a circular two man set teaching one to attack vital points below the navel. This in turn is followed by the 18 Buddha Form as a single man set and then a two man set. This set teaches vital point striking with the knuckles and fingertips in forward, left and right positions. Now a two man set, “seven point fist” is taught to advanced practitioners who will not “graduate” the system. Those who will must be formally accepted by the master to receive the “masters form” called 108. It is a sticky hand two man set teaching one hundred eight vital point striking, defending and countering. I call it acupuncture boxing. Herbals and Shun Kung (spirit) teaching follow. Traditionally, the Late Lum Sang Sifu only taught, the forms three steps forward, 18 point, seven point fist and 108 with their two man sets.

15

Mantis Form and Function
In most teachings, forms are broken down into a sequence of 1,2, or 3 techniques (movements) and explained as combat application. The problem with this is that the demonstration is usually static, this is, one person is asked to punch (attack) and hold out his hand while the other applies a sequence of 1,2,3 actions in defense and offense. This is unrealistic. In a real fight the attacker will never punch only once and stop - waiting for your reaction. Neither will he remain static waiting for you to attack him (or his weak spots). Action causes reaction - this is a basic law of nature (and survival).

When one person defends and/or attacks the other will instinctually move to avoid being hit - in example, clap your hands in a wilderness area and watch as the fowl and animals instinctually move - or like one automatically blinks when being poked toward the eyes.

Martial arts applications cannot be realistic if they are static. Application must be dynamic; cause and effect, action and reaction, especially against skilled martial art. It is possible that a skilled martial artist defending against an unskilled person MIGHT find himself in a situation where his 1,2,3 movement can be applied, but, even an unskilled person will turn his head when being struck in the face or turn his body when being struck in the chest.

Therefore, superior martial art must first be guided by relentless intent - eye to eye, hand to hand, driving forward into the center of the opponents being. Second, a superior skill must have segmented feeling power which can produce whole body force, that is, any part of the body can yield independently to the opponents incoming force creating an unstable center and opening and then discharge a focused single deadly strike with power issuing from the feet, up the legs, back, arms, and fingers into a weak vital point of the opponent such as the eyes, throat, or solar plexus. Third, a skillful art must be based on changes of the hand, since the hand (arm) is the quickest and most convenient weapon (just watch any real fight).

By pressing the centerline of the opponent, sticking to his movement and feeling his intent, the skillful hand can, using small, quick, short, angular jerks and deflections, redirect and create an opening in the opponents center and intent while delivering a single devasting blow in a straight line (the shortest quickest distance between two points) to his vital spots. Continuous direct blows are given until the opponents submission. The mantis philosophy is train until within three blows the opponent submits, bleeds or ceases to exist.

But this is based on the ability of the practicer to intently stick, feel, yield and discharge continuous changes based on the opponent’s action and reaction. Simply said, if pushed downward the hand turns to strike upward, if pushed upward the hand turns to strike downward, if pushed inward the hand turns to strike outward, if pushed out the hand turns (changes) to strike inward (simply said). Of course, this is a principle and as one becomes skillful, his hand learns to adapt to any angle or circumstance. Like the stance, one first finds the center, develops power, moves the center and attaches the center to his opponent. Later, any position or posture is centered, whether lying, sitting, standing or walking.

The eighteen mantis hands all change in this way without a break in the power and contact of the two people. A is followed by B, by C turns to D and so on. In time, two people learn to change hands (power) automatically. By repitition A instinctually turns to B turns to C, etc. At this point, one may simply hold out his hands and they will move and strike without thought. When the eighteen mantis hands are practiced by two skillful people, it looks like a continuous “sticky” fight. Once contact is made there is no backing up or breaking apart. Each of the eighteen hands is a reaction to an action with the intent of each movement to make one deadly strike enough. Learning the eighteen hand changes individually is basic training and is followed by a series of two man “sticky, feeling, changing” forms in which the mantis practicers begin to instinctually skill various changes while developing precision in striking vital areas. The forms are “hands on” and realistic in “continuous fighting”. Fifteen years ago, Bill Chan, a kungfu brother, and I, were practicing one of these two man sticky hand forms on the North Shore of Lake Michigan in Chicago. To our surprise, many people stopped and thought we were actually fighting!

This principle of contact, control and strike (until the opponent is red) is central to all mantis action is based on the three powers of the arm; from the shoulder to the elbow, elbow to the wrist, wrist to the fingertips. A skillful mantis will defend and attack using one arm (leaving one hand free) to trap and control the opponents two arms. This is done with one arm by using the forearm for defensive movement while simultaneously attacking with the hand or fingers. This can only be accomplished if one has understood the centerline theory.

And so, a superior art is based on a deep rooted stance, upright footwork in stepping and production of power by the movement of the ribs and diaphragm. It will use the conditioned arms and hands 70% of the time and the legs and feet 30% of the time in offense and defense. Again this is because, the hands are the quickest and most convenient weapon (as we can see in any real fight).

LIK AND GING
Lik (li) is the natural strength a man’s body possesses. It is his physical constitution and it varies from person to person. Sometimes a smaller person is naturally stronger than a larger person and sometimes the larger person is not naturally strong. In the case of one’s Lik (natural strength) size is not always an indicator.

Ging (jing) is based on the Lik (natural strength) of person but it is not natural. It is a refined strength, a strength that is acquired after special training.

Think of the body builder. He has both lik and ging. His natural strength (lik) is due to his body size and his refined strength (ging) is developed in the movement of lifting weights. Therefore, his ging is useful in moving weights, but not in other actions. This is why different people with different daily lives have different lik and ging. The person who digs ditches with a shovel will develop a refined power (ging) that allows him the greatest ease and comfort at shovelling. And so it is that in martial art we develop ging or refined power after special training. And we can see that the better our (lik) natural strength the greater our refined strength will also be. Today, we can hear of so many kinds of ging, particularly in Tai Chi or the so called “internal arts” that it may sound confusing. (And in many cases, I do believe the practicers are confused).
Simply stated, each skill or technique when mastered becomes a ging.

In mantis, the term, ging, is used as an overall word indicating refined strength and each technique or special skill is simply called a “hand”. However, each of the 18 mantis basic hands could be called a ging, ie. mor ging, gwak ging, choc ging, sigh ging, etc, because after repeated training one will acquire extraordinary power in this particular motion.

If one’s ging cannot be easily changed according to the opponents reaction power and intent, then it is called “dead power”. We see this in many Karate movements where force is met with greater force. It is “dead ging” because once exerted it cannot change or re-issue power until it has been regenerated usually by chambering or pulling back the hand as in the reverse punch. In contrast, “live power or ging” strikes, sticks, follows and regenerates power by using the opponents movement. The power is continuous and flowing without the need for pulling back the hand or recoiling the arm. One blow changes to another blow without ever breaking contact and always following the opponents movement. This, however, is a function of correct technique.

It is said that ging is produced in the feet and expressed outward toward the limbs. This is the function of the stance and footwork. If not exactly correctly, one may never develop a root and center and so the hands will never develop sufficient ging.

There are many other principles such as the centerline theory; intercepting hand and sticky hand; rooting, moving the center, attaching the center; crossing the bridge; straight power and borrowing force; float, sink, swallow and spit; which I may address in the future.

ANECDOTE
In the book, Complete Guide to Kungfu Fighting Styles, it is clear that the author, J. Hallander, had little or no experience with Southern Praying Mantis. Many erroneous statements are made about South Mantis including the basic history. Unfortunately, misinformation is abundant regarding this style, even on the internet today!

16

Hendrik…

Hendrik, I misread the article. So I am posting a section of the article here which states that Fukein White Crane came from same ‘province’ and time period, not the same hall. My fault. Several other popular combat systems trace their roots to this same province during the same period in history… quote from below.

Jim, Thank you for all that info! I have MUCH to read on the info you posted on the Praying Mantis!!! What I have gathered thusfar is that the Mantis you learned seems to have been highly influenced by the paradigm shift Desertwingchun2 and I speak of! It will be addressed either in this post or the following post. I am looking for a possible VTM article that might address the some of the science behind it. This post is primarily for Hendrik, but will be followed by another post addressing your question I have yet to answer…

This is a section of an article written by my Sigung and Sifu…
http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/realwingchun.htm

… This quest for truth resulted in strong evidence that Wing Chun began in the Southern Shaolin Temple (nàahm síu làhm jih) in the latter half of the 17th century. At this point in history, the Southern Shaolin Temple in Fukien Province (fük gin) was a hot bed for martial arts training. Several other popular combat systems trace their roots to this same province during the same period in history. This include Southern Mantis (jyù gà tòhng lòhng), White Eyebrow (baahk mèih), Dragon Fist (lùhng kyùhn), Fukien White Crane (fük gin baahk hohk), and Five Ancestor’s Boxing (ñgh jóu kyùhn).

So Hendrik, the above paragraph is where my source of information came from regarding the kung fu families mentioned.

Da Jung, whom you’ve cited, is also noted as another key figure (according to Hung Fa Yi Lineage) as well:
http://www.mengsofaz.com/currentarticles/myths.htm

[i] "… The second principle figure in the monk’s revolutionary activities used the alias “Da Jung.” His real name remains unknown, but his past and origins are not so hidden. Prior to his arrival at the Southern Shaolin Temple, he was a Ming military officer from the northern provinces. He fled south when the Ming Dynasty fell and sought shelter in the Southern Temple. He is truly important to the history of the Southern Temple because, prior to his arrival, kung fu was not of primary interest there. He is what Chinese martial arts traditionalists would call a “Joi Si,” or “First Leader,” because he is believed to be the first person to give his extensive knowledge of Chinese Kung Fu to the Southern Shaolin Temple.

In the process of teaching his martial arts at the Temple, he formed a secret society known as the “Buddhist Hung Moon.” The society’s express purpose was the overthrow of the Ching Dynasty. It was this organization that was used to link Northern and Southern Shaolin revolutionary activities together. Secret sub-societies were formed to carry out the intent of the Buddhist Hung Moon, the most significant being the “Hung Fa Wui” (Red Flower Society) and another counterpart organization on the island of Formosa, called Tien Dei Wui (Heaven and Earth Society). The Formosa based society was established by one of the last surviving Ming general officers, Cheng Sing Kung." [/i]

Thanks for bring that to my attention. It did clarify things for me!
-Savi.

17

I still wonder if these various systems mentioned, rather than being “Southern Shaolin”, are offshoots of Hakka boxing. The allegorical legends of “Southern Shaolin” are oddly close to the actual history of the Hakka (the Hakka were used by the Qing to fight the (Hokkien?) in Fujian, but were later driven out, and migrated down into Guangdong and Guangxi. Just as they used the term “Southern Mantis” to hide their Hakka boxing, it doesn’t seem to much of a stretch they used “Southern Shaolin” either, especially when you consider, as Jim mentioned, that the core set of Hakka fist like Juk Lam Tong Long is close to what is considered the core set of “Southern Shaolin”.

It’s also interesting that Wing Chun, White Crane, and even some Southern Mantis and other systems share incredibly similar creation myths, both involving the “5 Elders”, and the architypal story of a girl (Yim Wing Chun, Fong Wing Chun, Fong Chut Leung, etc.) learning from her father, changing the art to better suit herself, teaching her husband (Leung Bok-Cho, Hung Hey-Goon, Zhen Chen, etc.) who then taught the art to the masses.

18

Re: Hendrik…

Originally posted by Savi
[B]

[i] "… The second principle figure in the monk’s revolutionary activities used the alias “Da Jung.” His real name remains unknown, but his past and origins are not so hidden. Prior to his arrival at the Southern Shaolin Temple, he was a Ming military officer from the northern provinces. He fled south when the Ming Dynasty fell and sought shelter in the Southern Temple. He is truly important to the history of the Southern Temple because, prior to his arrival, kung fu was not of primary interest there. He is what Chinese martial arts traditionalists would call a “Joi Si,” or “First Leader,” because he is believed to be the first person to give his extensive knowledge of Chinese Kung Fu to the Southern Shaolin Temple.

[/B]

Hi Savi,

Dao jong last name is Cheong or Zhang. He was a native of Sao An. Not from the northern province…

He is not a Ming official. He join Cheng Sin-Gong after the falling of Ming with his other “brother from brotherhood” of Sao An Fujian.

As for Chu Hung Cuk… it is a make up…

As for martial art, no evidents… His temple is Chang Lin (long forest) then move to Fong San (pheonix mountain)…

Here is a picture of copy of writing in the tomb of Dao Jong.

As for the relationship of White Crane from Fujian with WCK. now one has to explain… As I said, the center line theory is from White Crane. so where is the paradigm shift? White Crane is preceed Hung Fa Ting…

Savi,

well Yan Kok Yau Chee. everyone has one’s free will. One can belive what one wants to belive.

But, evidents are evidents

19

Hello Savi and Rene,

RR,

You must have just been reading my mind! I do not believe in the animal arts/shaolin so to say. Hence the reason I refer to them as the “so-called shaolin”! I believe most of these arts are Hakka Kuen related. As the Hakka people migrated to the south (aka Nothern Guests) and settled in. Lum Sang was Hakka and the Mantis art was mainly only taught to Hakka in the early years.

Lots to think about.

Savi,

The Hakka arts seem to have had lots of influence in many systems. I belive there was at one time perhaps a more common, or standard similar base boxing, most practiced and then the off-shoots starting coming from them. The one thing that seems to be sure is that Som Bo (san chin) seems to be the root of most of these arts. I would probally say that South Mantis, Whitebrow, Dragon, Fukien Crane etc. may have all been from the Hakka source just different expression of the source. The structure is all too similar and the other elements I mentioned in the Pelvis topic are all too similar. Thats why I believe that WC has a good chance of being a blend of two as the posture, form pattern, form names, etc do not fit with the other more similar Hakka arts. Do you know that the Mantis art is only a few generations old? That would bring its origins only to the early 1800’s! If I was a betting man I would probally put my money on Fukien Crane being the main teachin/mother art of most of these arts but you never know?

Regards,

20

picture

Here is a picture of copy of writing in the tomb of Dao Jong.