The Wing Chun Mystery

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
101

Mustafa,

Thank you for sharing your view. that help me to understand you.

since I have some free time in this friday night, I like to chat with you openly. The followings are some of my view or opinions.

you are totally evading the discussion here. That link does not address the points I have made. … --------M

Discussion for me is not about take a position and argue or reply to anyone’s question in his way. or wanting to control others…or wanting to win…etc discussion is discussion

I have presented my view and pointed out why your emei theory is highly unlikely and how I just can’t see all the similarities that you seem to see from the material that’s freely available. ---------M

Great !
why not ?

everyone has thier view. and thank you for sharing.
When I am 20 year old I dont see what I see today either. So, that is life isnt it?

May be 20 years later you might totally agree with me. Or may be I will totally agree with you. who knows? let see what happen let time tell it story.

In scientific circles the presenter of a new theory has the burden of proof, not other scientist the burden of disproving. So, the “proof” that has been presented so far has been picked apart by me one by one. -------M

I use to look down on Buddhism, calling those who believe in it as whimp and dellusion.. but then when I experience the rollercoster in my life . Only There and then I realized. I was wrong about buddhism, it is a practical way to live.

same thing as I use to make joke about Christ, until I am on my knees and only then I realized the unconditional love is true superiority and Via Christ one do can recieve one’s salvation – open the heart. But that is years later and after going through all sort of living condition.

When I was young I pick a part lots and lots of theories too.

But that doesnt mean I am right. and in fact the older I got the more I think I am ignorance and naive. Other wont argue with me because I am rude and self center and have no idea what I am talking about. That is what I learn about myself when I was young, very surface.

… especially the whole engine/power generation issue. I understand just fine what you are saying but don’t agree. -------M

May be if you eleborate on what you do understand on the whole engine/power generation issue.. otherwise, I cant comment.

until then, I have no idea what do you mean by " I understand just fine."

I have presented my reasons so far, which you have not addressed.-------M

I certainly is not Omni present and know everything. And, it will be great if you present the Process and Sequence for development of such as inch power or shock power then I can understand you better. See, reason is not the same with process step and sequence. IMHO

I actually think that you do not understand what I am talking about, or don’t want to understand since it goes against what you are saying. More on it below… -----------

You could be right. You could be wrong. May be I take you as you goes against what I am saying. May be I dont. May be even I am smiling here because I have travel your path decades ago and I saw the young hendrik again? you never know. hahaha. Life.

Really? Funny that I wasn’t even born in the “west” and have been exposed to many different cultures, including chinese (very extensively).

So, you’re trying to tell me that 1.3 billion chinese could not tell the difference between a system meant for fighting and a system meant for health? --------M

IMHO,
Knowing about Chinese mind set and classical of China is not a born by default even for chinese. Chinese has gone through eductional revolution since early 1900’s and then the culture revolution. so, chinese today is not by default understand what is the chinese mind set or perception 100 years ago. That is a fact . So, take a tally for yourself, how many chinese can read and comprehend classical chinese writing or post early 1900’s writing?

On the other hand, even if one was born in the west, but truely study chinese culture in depth. then, s/he will know.

I understand the whole ying/yang theory, but chinese can still make a conscious decision about the primary purpose of their art.-------M

IMHHHO
when you say “whole Ying/Yang theory”, that itself indicate your state of understand about Ying and Yang.

will a person who “Know about Ying/Yang or Dao” will say “I understand the “whole” ying/yang theory”?

let’s look at I-Ching, the Book of change, the book of Ying Yang and see how is the teaching of Ying/Yang taught us to follow.

http://www.akirarabelais.com/i/i.html#15

  1. Ch’ien / Modesty

    above  K'UN  THE RECEPTIVE, EARTH
below  KEN  KEEPING STILL, MOUNTAIN

…It is the law of heaven to make fullness empty and to make full what is
modest; when the sun is at its zenith, it must, according to the law of heaven,
turn toward its setting, and at its nadir it rises toward a new dawn. In
obedience to the same law, the moon when it is full begins to wane, and
when empty of light it waxes again.

This heavenly law works itself out in the
fates of men also. It is the law of earth to alter the full and to contribute to the
modest. High mountains are worn down by the waters, and the valleys are
filled up. It is the law of fate to undermine what is full and to prosper the
modest. And men also hate fullness and love the modest.

The destinies of men are subject to immutable laws that must fulfill
themselves. But man has it in his power to shape his fate, according as his
behavior exposes him to the influence of benevolent or of destructive forces.
When a man holds a high position and is nevertheless modest, he shines
with the light of wisdom; if he is in a lowly position and is modest, he cannot
be passed by. Thus the superior man can carry out his work to the end
without boasting of what he has achieved…

So, our wing chun ancestors were fully capable of making a conscious decision to tailor our art for fighting. Plain and simple…it has nothing to do with cultural differences. --------M

you have a great idea and opinion, it correct and perfectly right, according to you. . But, what if the ancestors doesnt think like you but thinking the following way?

  1. Armies
    Armies are tools of violence;
    They cause men to hate and fear.
    The sage will not join them.
    His purpose is creation;
    Their purpose is destruction.

Weapons are tools of violence,
Not of the sage;
He uses them only when there is no choice,
And then calmly, and with tact,
For he finds no beauty in them.

Whoever finds beauty in weapons
Delights in the slaughter of men;
And who delights in slaughter
Cannot content himself with peace.

So slaughters must be mourned
And conquest celebrated with a funeral. - Dao De Ching Chapter 31

http://www.chinapage.com/gnl.html#31

So, from the above two cases, specifically, ask ourself, we all think we know chinese , Ying Yang, Dao… etc. How much we really really truely know? or we just memories some phrase and repeat it similar to a parrot thinking we know but we have no clue?

You do not design a car and its engine separately. The car and it’s engine have to “fit.” That’s why different models of cars have slightly different engines, even if they are from the same company. Likewise, a BMW will have a BMW engine, not a Mercedes engine. So, Wing Chun has a (surprise!!) Wing Chun engine, not an emei one. Is it really that hard to give the wing chun founders some creative credit? How can they design a system without designing its engine? Wing Chun power generation is specifically tailored to wing chun body structure/platform…it’s all ONE! No “emei” engine required. -------M

Great ideas.

However, you didnt describe what is , How is…etc about Wing Chun engine. So, who knows what are you talking about? Please describe What is, How is,… the process steps, the sequence states of the development of the engine. Otherwise, I agree with you, you are right – NO Emei engine required. Because there is no enginee or because no one knows what Engine are you talking about?

For me wing chun was a “revolutionary” martial art…i.e. it was and is very different from all the other chinese martial arts styles I am familiar with (and I know quite a few). Hence, why not credit the founders with some “revolutionary” thinking also? -------M

You have the right to believe you are right and I repect that right. However, is it what is it? or the Chinese believe in chapter 30 of the Dao De Ching as below?

  1. Violence

Powerful men are well advised not to use violence,
For violence has a habit of returning;
Thorns and weeds grow wherever an army goes,
And lean years follow a great war.

A general is well advised
To achieve nothing more than his orders:
Not to take advantage of his victory.
Nor to glory, boast or pride himself;
To do what is dictated by necessity,
But not by choice.

For even the strongest force will weaken with time,
And then its violence will return, and kill it.

http://www.chinapage.com/gnl.html#30

102

I don’t buy that argument. -----M

Who argue with you?
or perhaps you love to argue, and, thus, having a perception of love to argue thus seeing argue every where?

similar to those who wear blue sun glasses will see blue everywhere? could that be a possibility?

That kuen kuit describes combat concepts, not some mystical philosophy. ----M

again, what mystical? what combat concepts? are you sure it is the Kuen Kuit or it is us who dont know about it and see it as mystical philosophy?

You engage in a fight, you struggle, you are violent. Simple as that. -------M

have you ask why do you fight before jumping into You engage in a fight?
do you question if we use our head before use our body?

Yes, of course you want to keep the mind calm and concentrated, but you also want to have the “angry eyes” as many chinese martial arts advocate.
If you think that you can subdue an opponent by standing there and thinking about non-violence and similing in his face and letting the “chi” or some higher power take care of the rest, then you’re mistaken. You have to fight. Simple as that. —M

Cool. Very Cool based on you perception.

and what the Chinese mind set says?
again,

  1. Violence
    Powerful men are well advised not to use violence,
    For violence has a habit of returning;
    Thorns and weeds grow wherever an army goes,
    And lean years follow a great war.

A general is well advised
To achieve nothing more than his orders:
Not to take advantage of his victory.
Nor to glory, boast or pride himself;
To do what is dictated by necessity,
But not by choice.

For even the strongest force will weaken with time,
And then its violence will return, and kill it.

Wing Chun gives you the tools…it’s up to you to use them properly. ------M

Cool. very cool but what is the consequence could be?

Within the Cho family member, not more then 40 years ago, in a family friendly sparing accident end up a person die. and the other sparing mate still carry his sorrow until today in my understanding. That is the consequence. are you willing to pay for it? be it dead or sorrow for a full life?

I would interpret that as “use efficient/economic methods/techniques to defeat the enemy instead of using excessive muscle strength and large movements.”

I don’t see any “do not struggle” philosphy in there. But then, I’m looking at it from a practical perspective, as a fighting art should be looked at, instead of a philosophical one. -------M

Do you know those chefs who have master how to use knive know how to cut deep and… without even crush with the bone… that is not struggle but flow with it…

Thus, Your practical perspective is great however not the chefs’ percective. IMHO
and the chef doesnt have to interpret, s/he just cut and flow as s/he likes. You certainly have never think this way right? or else you will not write the above.

Yes, flow…but try flowing without knowing the fighting concepts and applications of your martial art. You’ll get your head knocked off. ------M

Will knowing your fighting concepts and applications safe you from getting your head knocked off by another person who is better then you? if not, then, what?

Just standing there and meditating and letting the chi flow won’t win a fight for you. ------M

IMHO, Commenting about something one has no idea with is the worst enermy of oneself.

Because one set oneself up for fall. I just told some one to learn to be smarter to not set oneself up to fail a few days ago.

When, have no idea, it is better to observe and learn and find out instead of commenting due to the urge from the emotion and ego.

That un able to observe in silence and blindly reactive behaviour also is an indicator of the level of one’s kung fu ---- surface or as it said, one cant sink one’s qi. IMHO.

Knowledge of martial applications don’t just come to you out of the blue. And winning fights was crucial back when people had to bet their lives on it. ------M

In my recollection, and I always can be wrong,
Mas Oyama’s Kyokusin promote Zen or by passed the Knowledge and mind. Wing Chun’s Come accept, Goes return, set free move forward also promote the same stuffs.

have you participate in a Kyokusin K1 type of tournoment? They dont bet their lives on it but they are tough and know thier business. they rely on KNow instead of Knowledge. Do you know what is the different?

who is the tougher fighter? the one who concern about winning fight or the one who stay in silence, has no concern about thier lives, but determine to take you down? and can knowledge of martial art application of yours be able to stop him?

Just some thoughts before I go doing my prayer. Great to chat with you.

NOw, Peace, Harmony.

103

A point that should be address directly indeed!

Tony,
I think you made a very powerful point here that seemed to be missed by some. I find that it does speak volumes on the subject of being able to look from a P.O.V. of considering what has been graciously offered buy the rich history of the known lineages. Personally the simple fact that these lineages have shared this information comands respect. This respect should begin with not ignoring what has been offered when constructing a theory in public. I understand that not everyone shares this feeling. However here is that point once again!

Since Wong Wah-Bo was the senior-most Wing Chun Kuen practitioner of the Red Junk Opera in the mid-1800s. How can Yik Kam invent what Wong Wah-Bo his senior was already known to have not only practiced but passed down through his lineage. When Hung Gun Biu, Dai Dung Fong(Pao Fa Lein) and Jee Shim are all senior to Yik Kam and all trace their lineage back before the time of Yik Kam how is it possible for Yik Kam to invent what they were already reported to have passed down. etc…

This point stands very solid at the center of this discussion and it seems that it cannot be ignored when considering the cases in question as plausable! This logic seems to be pretty cut and dry.
Great point Tony!

If some one would have information that would some how change these points, please share them I have a very open mind. This would be a great topic for discussion looking beyond a single lineage!

Chango

104

(Just for discussion shake, what if I post in the following tune? :D)

hahaha, all the Yik Kam this and Wong wah po that.

Lineage means methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation toward the ability of Fa Jing, Far Jing, and Thing Jing.

face it, can one do Fa JIng, Far Jing, and Thing Jing or the issue of force, the deflection of force, and the sensing of force after the practice of the one set, three set, three thousand set?

if yes, get to the real discussion, reveal the methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation toward the ability of Fa Jing, Far Jing, and Thing Jing.

Otherwise, IMHHHHHO, it is all entertainment stuffs.

If you like to get to core of de-Mystified WCK, great, reveal the lineage’s practice methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation toward the ability of Fa Jing, Far Jing, and Thing Jing. compare that toward is it Shao Lin, Emei, Wudang…etc.

That simple. otherwise, you dont have a thing but marketing and sale pitch. thus, there is no way you can do shock jing. see, your platform witll tell. similar to those who do weight lifting. all what they do has to be making sense otherwise their body cannot do it. so, what is your’s ?

have you ever see those who do Squat doing it with one fist knees distance or no root type of loose rooting stance? can the squat be done that way? comon sense.

Otherwise, it is just his-entertainment all talks and no content. One can talk until the end of time but goes no where.

So, what is the process of who is senior who is junior who is monk who is this or that. who cares? Got process?

Show it , otherwise, all just talk.

( hahaha, that is a rude but to the point post. However, I will not post this way. because lots of people including myself might not be able to take it’s impact. because we all dont know how to do shock Jing or FaJing or Far Jing… )

I sing my song here and have a nice weekend.
Peace, and rest in peace.

Hello darkness, my old friend,
I’ve come to talk with you again,
Because a vision softly creeping,
Left its seeds while I was sleeping,
And the vision that was planted in my brain
Still remains
Within the sound of silence.
In restless dreams I walked alone
Narrow streets of cobblestone,
'Neath the halo of a street lamp,
I turned my collar to the cold and damp
When my eyes were stabbed by the flash of a neon light
That split the night
And touched the sound of silence.

And in the naked light I saw
Ten thousand people, maybe more.
People talking without speaking,
People hearing without listening,
People writing songs that voices never share
And no one dare
Disturb the sound of silence.

“Fools” said I, “You do not know
Silence like a cancer grows.
Hear my words that I might teach you,
Take my arms that I might reach you.”
But my words like silent raindrops fell,
And echoed
In the wells of silence

And the people bowed and prayed
To the neon god they made.
And the sign flashed out its warning,
In the words that it was forming.
And the sign said, “The words of the prophets
are written on the subway walls
And tenement halls.”
And whisper’d in the sounds of silence.

OMMMMMMM

105

Chango,
Thanks it is difficult to gauge whether people are ignoring these facts or if they are not fully aware of their signifigance but never the less these facts remain in the way of hendriks theory and Jim’s speculation until proven otherwise.

originally posted by hendrik
Lineage means methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation toward the ability of Fa Jing, Far Jing, and Thing Jing.
hendrik,
No one here can speak for all the lineages involved so until you admit that your theory only applies to Cho Ga Wing Chun until proven otherwise you will continue to be seen as misleading the general public with biased opinion in favor of your own lineage. What does it say about you and your theory if you are unwilling to admit to these facts. Anything less means you continue to speak for and misrepresent several other lineages you know nothing about plain and simple.

106

Mustafa sez:

if true, it wouldn’t matter if you practice one long set or stop in between three parts of the set and call it three sets. Why not leave Yik Kam and Hendrik the person out of this and just concentrate on the actual arguments made here? I think that would be more productive than trying to prove that Yik Kam was somehow inferior to others.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------A good point Mustafa. Specific point counter point discussion helps illuminate different points of view.Attacking individuals is pointless. In my own case it has not made me into a Yik Kam or Cho family person or a Gulo advocate.
BTW- in Ip Man’s brief statement on wing chun origins - he does not say that
wing chun is pure shaolin- you have Ng Mui hiding in the temple in various stories and then moving west- Wing Chun was from Canton but fled to a mountain on the szchechuan border where she met Ng Mui. Note:

The Origin of Wing Chun
by Grandmaster Ip Man

The founder of the Wing Chun Kung Fu System, Miss Yim Wing Chun was a native of Canton [Kwangtung Province] in China. …

Her father, Yim Yee, was wrongfully accused of a crime and, rather than risk jail, they slipped away and finally settled down at the foot of Tai Leung Mountain near the border between Yunan and Szechuan provinces.

Ng Mui took refuge in the White Crane Temple on Mt. Tai Leung [also known as Mt. Chai Har]. It was there she met Yim Yee and his daughter Wing Chun… Wing Chun followed Ng Mui into the mountains, and began to learn Kung Fu.

The snake/crane metaphor appears in many Ip man lines as well as in others.

Wing chun does not mimic animals- but the metaphors may point to some key principles and their fusion- the main body axis and the waves of energy. Even without all the discussion- I anyway found for quite some time, merit in the semiotic language of metaphors.

joy chaudhuri

107

Joy,

Great post!

Lets we all contribute. Lets share what we have, lets integrate all what is fit so that we all have firm ground and root.

and then help each other to preserve EVERY LIneage as much as we can. So that the Lineage’s methodology, process, steps, sequence, and states of cultivation Stay and shine like spring, even when we all are gone someday.

We all can make a different because we all share and INTEGRATE and Build.

If the sky opened up for me,
And the mountain disappeared,
If the seas ran dry, turned to dust
And the sun refused to rise
I would still find my way,
By the light I see in your eyes
The world I know fades away
But you stay

As the earth reclaims it due
And the cycle starts anew
We’ll stay, always
In the love that we have
Shared before time

If the years take away
Every memory that I have
I would still know the way
That would lead me back to your side
The north star may die
But the light that I see in your eyes
Will burn there always

Lit by the love we have
Shared before time

When the forest turns to jade
And the stories that we’ve made
Dissolve away
One shining light will still remain

our life shall passed however SLT stays!

108

I have just post the following on Rene’s website. I would like to share with you all. So that you all can also contribute and let’s integrate!

Lets not talk theory but show matching evidents and facts in VERY DETAILS. Otherwise, it is not theory but speculation where there is no end to it. for everyone can make his/her -story.

Cant speak for other lineage but for Yik Kam lineage, the following is confirm and matched. If you want to adopt or investigation into what I have in the following, that is your freedom. I dont push my data but share. If you think it is usefull, take it and use it. otherwise forget about it.

What is the “core” of Wing Chun that can obviously be found in Fukien White Crane? -------R

The white crane match DNA :

Center line theory of SLT. Tan Sau and pak Sau and Lap Sao and Bo Pai are Water shape hand, Fire shape hand, Yo hand, Bo Pai of White Crane.

Jong Sau or Mun Sau or Bai Jong is Chao Yang hand of White Crane.

and the list continous…

match with White Crane’s practitioner’s view of Lee Gang from Hong Kong, Pan family of Fujian..etc

What is the “core” of Wing Chun that can obviously be found in Emei? —R

The emei match DNA:

YJKYM is from the emei platform of equal shoulder stance dynamic equilibrium platform.

Biu Jee cultivation is from the emei snake arm silk worm DNA.

The name Siu Lin Tau is a derivation from the Siu Set within Emei 12 zhong. The Siu Lin Tau even was perform in the style of the first half part of the Siu Set.

And the list Goes on.

match with the teaching of Gm Fu 13 generation gate holder of Emei 12 zhuang.

What is the “core” of Wing Chun that can obviously be found on the Red Junks? —R

The Salutation and the stanza which were perform in the begining of the sets be it the fist set or the pole set passed down from Yik Kam. Which matching the history of Lee Man Mau opera actor uprising and the small knive society and Tai Ping related uprising

Match with official chinese written history facts.

http://www.wingchunkuen.com/modules.php?name=News&file=article&sid=105&mode=&order=0&thold=0

What is the “core” of Wing Chun that can obviously be found in Shaolin? -----R

The fan shape 6.5 pole 13 spear set.

match with the so called “Southern Shao LIn pole set” this is a rare set with its uniqueness with the Zoning of the facing similar to the shape of the old chinese fan.

1930’s generation of the canton /Hong kong martial artists heard more about this set. and some of today’s Hong Kong /Canton china martial artists still remember the name of this set.

109

Check out the Shao Lin Hung Gar Iron wire set. and the emei clip.

Observe which type of platform is closer to SLT’s Jing type or power signature…

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fDTniv8PuW0&mode=related&search=

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=733307854123782601&q=Emei

110

Hello Hendrik,

Unfortunately, I don’t really see much sense in having a discussion about this topic with you. You are so set in your ways that you won’t even address any actual arguments. In your whole post you are basically trying to say that I don’t know what I am talking about, lack understanding, don’t understand you…etc. You make it look like I am advocating violence, whereas you are advocating peace. All of this just shows you that you have absolutely no idea about what I am talking about, and no idea about the points I am trying to make and absolutely no clue about me and my intentions. Worse, instead of concentrating on the points I have made and logically discussing them, you concentrate on the person…namely me and my supposed lack of understanding of the subject matter with your insuniations (subtle as they may be). I am not surprised by this, as this is absolutely normal behavior for people who are so convinced of something (even if it’s just blind faith), that everyone else must be blind and, of course, wrong.

Then you start talking about modesty without apparently understanding what modesty means. Do you really think it’s modest to imply that others (in this case me) just don’t understand what you are saying or worse, don’t understand the system, thereby putting yourself on a pedestal as the “master of understanding?” If you are not the “master of undestanding”, i.e. on the summit of wing chun knowledge, then who are you to judge my understanding of wing chun? How come you keep saying (for years now), that “others will see in time”, implying that they will one day understand the “high level” theory, that at this point only Hendrik and a few followers (i.e. anyone agreeing with Hendrik) can possibly understand (understand = agree with Hendrik). It’s never a good idea to throw with stones if you are sitting in a glass house. If you advocate modesty, maybe it’s a good idea to demonstrate it instead of unjustly accusing other people of lacking modesty.

Just judging from your posts over the years in various forums and lists, I could just say: “Hendrik obviously has no idea about wing chun,” but you know what? I won’t say that. Why? Because I will reserve that judgment until the time when I actually meet you (which will be much easier to do next year, since I am moving to the west coast, most likely southern California). After all, internet discussions can be deceiving. What I know for sure, however, is that it’s impossible to have a *logical" discussion about comparative wing chun history with you. It’s like trying to have a logical, reasonable discussion about religion with someone who is extremely religious. For a person like that anyone doubting anything that his/her religious book/leaders advocate is just a sign of “blindness”, ignorance, and these people will hopefully find the truth in the future…etc…etc. “God bless their soul, as they are going to hell.” :smiley: Does that sound familiar, Hendrik?

Anyway, I will explain one last time my point of view here to you and hope that you will actually understand this time. I can’t do anything beyond that. I can only take a horse to the water, but can’t force it to drink. Here it goes:

I consider martial arts “dead” arts. They have served their purpose in prior societies, but are not needed presently due to modern weapons, military, law enforcement, courts/legal system etc..etc. There is absolutely no doubt about the fact that martial arts were created for fighting, i.e. for subduing an opponent. I thought the name “martial” art would have given this fact away, but after this discussion I feel I need to point this fact out specifically for clarity. Wing Chun happens to be one of those arts that have pockets of functional knowledge, which survived to the present time.

I happen to be one of those people who think that this old knowledge, from times when wing chun was actually used for its intended purpose, should be preserved. It’s like preserving other dead or dying arts, such as sword making, shooting arrows from horseback (to name a few arts in the martial art realm) or making (by hand) and repairing copper/iron/metal cups/bowls and traditional herbal medicine. When preserving dead/dying arts it’s absolutely important to preserve it’s functionality. And wing chun’s functionality happens to be subduing someone who wants to fight you. Plain and simple. Does that mean I advocate violence? Do I like to watch people get hurt? Do I get off on violence? Do I have a violent personality? No. Absolutely not. I’ve been in enough fights and seen enough fights (and people getting hurt and getting hurt myself) in my life, even before wing chun, that I know that peace is the best way to. It’s just not worth it to get maimed for the rest of your life, or even die, just because you made one wrong choice and decided to fight for whatever reason. If you can, walking away and avoiding a fight is always the best option. But, if you can’t walk away, and the only option is to fight to save your life and/or your bodily functions, then you better know how to fight. I don’t think anyone would disagree with that.

So, as you can see, Hendrik, I do not have a violent personality, nor do I advocate any violence. However, I am not going to try to “mold” wing chun into a peaceful art, as you have been (presumely subconsciously) doing for a few years now. If I see an art that has been ingeniously designed to subdue an opponent in the most efficient way possible, then I will try to preserve that aspect of this art. Plain and simple. And I won’t let my peaceful personality and/or faith influence my logic and reasoning. Wing chun was taught to me as a fighting art and was taught to my teacher as a fighting art and was taught to his teacher (Sum Nung) as a fighting art. I have learned some incredibly effective/ingenious fighting methods/concepts from my teacher. And yes, Hendrik, this includes body structure and power transmission methods. I consider these teachings literally a treasure. Now, will I go try to pick fights with random people just to test my wing chun or “prove” its efficiency and possibly get off on beating up others? No! Absolutely not. As I said before, I look at wing chun as an art form. Yes, I do plan on preserving it for its intended purpose, i.e. subduing an opponent, but I won’t advocate violence. If you get attacked and have no other choice, you better know functional wing chun. Otherwise, train it as realistically as possible, while keeping risk of injury at a minimum, to preserve the art. Trying to make the art into a qigong exercise will kill it faster than you can say “dead.” Don’t get me wrong, I have a very open mind and I think that Qigong/meditation etc. are valid arts on their own and should be appreciated…they just don’t form the foundation of wing chun, that’s all.

Anyway, you have managed to distract the discussion from the main point I was trying to make earlier, namely, that your thoery and Jim’s article make no logical sense and go against any reason and scientific thinking. I am still waiting for you and/or Jim to actually invalidate the points that I have made. Remember that invalidating would involve actually providing some proof for your theory instead of “proving” it by saying that “they don’t understand.” A logical discussion needs logical arguments that concentrate on the issue at hand.

One last point about power generation. From your writings it seems that you don’t seem to understand how power generation works in (again…I’ll leave final judgment on that to the time when I meet you) in wing chun. Wing chun uses short power/whole-body power (or whatever else you want to call it). If you don’t have short power, you might as well throw your wing chun out the window. You, Hendrik, seem to think that the YGKYM with the one fist distance between the knees and the toes turned in somehow makes it impossible to develop “jing” and that the emei stance is somehow needed for developing such power. So, what would you say if I told you that, once you have developed short power, you can use short power sitting on the couch with your feet on the table watching TV? What would you say if I told you that such power comes “by itself” once the forms are practiced the correct way. There are specific methods for generation of such short power/whole body power, which have absolutely nothing to do with emei qigong, but everything to do with body mechanics and body alignment. Don’t ask me to explain what I mean by that, because I won’t explain it. As I have said many times before in this thread, I just don’t believe in technical discussions online. Not a good medium for such a purpose at all. But an excellent medium for logical discussions of history/viewpoints/theories etc. .

That’s why it’s probably a good idea to get back to the actual discussion about why your emei/white crane theory is full of huge gaping holes, which I have pointed out already. If you actually decide to address the points in a reasonable manner, the discussion can go on. If not, then this is the end and I will just have to live with the fact that logical, reasonable discussion with you is an impossibility (at least online).

Take care,
Mustafa

111

originally posted by Vajramusti
--------A good point Mustafa. Specific point counter point discussion helps illuminate different points of view.Attacking individuals is pointless. In my own case it has not made me into a Yik Kam or Cho family person or a Gulo advocate.
BTW- in Ip Man’s brief statement on wing chun origins - he does not say that
wing chun is pure shaolin- you have Ng Mui hiding in the temple in various stories and then moving west- Wing Chun was from Canton but fled to a mountain on the szchechuan border where she met Ng Mui. Note:

The Origin of Wing Chun
by Grandmaster Ip Man

The founder of the Wing Chun Kung Fu System, Miss Yim Wing Chun was a native of Canton [Kwangtung Province] in China. …

Her father, Yim Yee, was wrongfully accused of a crime and, rather than risk jail, they slipped away and finally settled down at the foot of Tai Leung Mountain near the border between Yunan and Szechuan provinces.

Ng Mui took refuge in the White Crane Temple on Mt. Tai Leung [also known as Mt. Chai Har]. It was there she met Yim Yee and his daughter Wing Chun… Wing Chun followed Ng Mui into the mountains, and began to learn Kung Fu.
Joy,
As a University professor one would think you would understand the importance integrity and clarity in trying to communicate subjects that can at times seem confusing to those not as familiar with the subject as maybe yourself. Trying to use Yip Man to advocate hendrik’s theory is a losing proposition and makes no sense because in the final analysis Grandmaster Ip Man said Wing Chun is from Shaolin, he never mentioned a fusion of Emei or White Crane and all this misrepresentation of the facts will not change that so why not include all of the Grandmaster’s conclusions while you are at it.

During the reign of Emperor K’anghsi of the Ching Dynasty (1662-1722) Kung Fu became very strong in the Siu Lam [Shaolin] Monastery of Mt. Sung, in Honan Province… …It can thus be said that the Wing Chun System was passed on to us in a direct line of succession from its origin. I write this history of the Wing Chun System in respectful memory of my forerunners. I am eternally grateful to them for passing to me the skills I now possess. A man should always think of the source of the water as he drinks it; it is this shared feeling that keeps our Kung Fu brothers together. Is this not the way to promote Kung Fu, and to project the image of our country?

This translation comes from one of Leung Ting’s books.
http://stickgrappler.tripod.com/wck/ymhist.html

Yourself and hendrik’s obfuscation of this matter using Grandmaster Ip Man only shows how unlikely the theory is. Like yourself in this instance hendrik goes out of his way to hide the facts that official Chinese Government records document several players in this theme whereas this theory picks and plucks times places and various people as hendrik sees fit. Trying to draw connotations of all things martial to the term yongchun or wing chun out of context is very misleading and you know it and you know why but still this misuse persist inside this theory in fact it could be consider responsible for keeping this theory afloat.

Documented different people and places
Fang Yongchun- Neice of Fang Shiyu Crane & Tiger
Fang Qiniang - White Crane
Yim Wing-Chun (Yan Yongchun)- Wing Chun
Yongchun County, Fujian Province
Chi Sim - Weng Chun

** Fang Yongchun was born in Zhaoxing in Guangdong. She is not identical with the nun Yongchun, referred to as ‘The Third Lady of Yongchun’ (Cant. Wing Chun), nor identical with Fang Qiniang, who founded the White Crane Fist. Crane techniques were already part of the Shaolin Five Animal Fist that Hong Xiguan learned in the Shaolin Monastery in Fujian.
http://www.ehga.org/eng/masters.html

Fang Yongchun
The niece of Fang Shiyu, she was also born in Zhaoxing in Guangdong. Since Fang Shiyu’s brothers were at least 20 years older than him, she must have been about the same age as her uncle. Also known as the Third Lady of Yongchun, she studied under Zhi Shan, specialising in the Yongchun Fist (although another version of the story identifies Yan Yongchun rather than her as the originator of this style).

She later married Hong Xiguan. One account alleges that Fang Yongchun knew the Crane Fist style, and, when she married Hong, combined it with his Tiger Fist to produce Tiger Crane Boxing. But Zhu Yuzhai’s Heroes of South China identifies the Third Lady of Yongchun as a nun who taught Hong Xiguan the Tiger Crane Fist so that he could perform an act of revenge for her. And another legend concerning the Third Lady of Yongchun can be found in the lore of the White Crane school: after the destruction of the Shaolin Monastery in Fujian, the disciple Fang Huishi (whose head had not yet been shaved) escaped and went into hiding in the Shaolin Monastery, also in Fujian. There he (or she) taught all his skills to his daughter Fang Qiniang, who in turn went on to found the White Crane Fist, inspired by her observation of an actual white crane. Qiniang later became a nun, and took the name Yongchun.
http://home.planet.nl/~padbe017/Nan_Shaolin_9.htm

This liberal misuse of the terms youngchun and Wing Chun need to stop on your part hendrik is notorious for misleading his audience on purpose to this point you are not but that could change as people start to see and understand this flawed theory. To be taken seriously when discussing these topics one must clearly differentiate and clarify exactly which yongchun or wing chun or weng chun it is you are referencing anything less would be seen as a diliberate attempt to deceive the readers or a message from someone unqualified to deliver it. Of course hendrik does this mixing and matching as he pleases but Joy it is somewhat of a surprise to see you join in on this charade.

112

I have seen the light!

After reading the new issue of Kung Fu magazine-I think that real wing chun
was created in Virginia-
folks mysteries do exist.
It would possibly be a barren bleak world if we coudn’t discuss the mysteries.
But the Holy of holies may indeed be found empty.
Thanks to Omar, I see it now:

Come fill the wing chun cup and in the fire of spring
The snake’s winter skin of repentance fling
The bird of time has but a little way
To flutter-and the crane is on the wing

Myself when young did eagerly frequent
Kwoon after kwoon and heard great argument
About this and that-but evermore
Came out of the same door-as in they went.

Internet chat that can with logic absolute
The two and seventy jarring sects confute
The subtle chi that in a trice
A leaden stance into life transmute

Oh, come with Ng Mui and leave the wise
To talk-one thing is certain, that life flies
One thing is certain , and the rest is lies
The plum blossom that once has blown forever dies.

joy chaudhuri

113

Joy,

Great post!

114

if your SLT peform in the following ways.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EJO-ZApJQj0
http://users.skynet.be/sb018200/ccw2warshau2001.wmv

Then,
Sure I agree, your WCK is Shao Lin related.

if it is similar to the following type.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S_ZP7qOVLW0&mode=related&search=

Then,

It is white Crane related.

if it is close to the following equal shouder stance engine platform and finger technics

http://www.whatisqi.com/gmfu_video.htm

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=733307854123782601&q=Emei

Then,

It is emei related

If it is related to Shao LIn, Excellent. you find your root /source where you can search of more advance level there.

If it is related to White Crane and/or Emei, Great. you root yourself in two of the martial art giants in the chinese martial art/ internal /wholistic mind/body art world.

in the localization evolution of an art, everything is possible after 100years of evolution and integration…

what is the likely core DNA of WCK 150 years ago? what is the common denominator of YKS, Yip, Cho, Fung perhaps the common denominator might be able to tell us.

how do Gm Yip does his ?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BpocH0ToMzs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QSXMzEeIl8c&mode=related&search=

Everyone win no one is losing. For everyone find thier root.

115

originally posted by Mustafa
anyway, you have managed to distract the discussion from the main point I was trying to make earlier, namely, that your thoery and Jim’s article make no logical sense and go against any reason and scientific thinking. I am still waiting for you and/or Jim to actually invalidate the points that I have made. Remember that invalidating would involve actually providing some proof for your theory instead of “proving” it by saying that “they don’t understand.” A logical discussion needs logical arguments that concentrate on the issue at hand.

Mustafa
Great post!

Wise decision not to wait for this to happen because you know it won’t. One minute hendrik wants to tell you what the engine is one minute he says the sole purpose of his inquiry is to find the engine then later he is belittling everyone that differs from his point of view telling them they don’t know the engine it nevers changes. One thing is certain he won’t tell you is how it is Yik Kam can be passing on something older than Wong Wah-Bo when Wong Wah-Bo is THE most senior member of the Red Junks. Secondly he won’t explain is why this theory instead of starting with only the Cho Ga automatically jumps to the origins of ALL wing chun meaning he tries to speak for Wing Chun families he has no knowledge of.

116

Thank you for your sharing and giving me a better understanding about where you come from.

As I mention in the above post. I am not interested in taking a position to argument or win/lost situation. What to argue? what to win/lost?

Similarly, however you want to view my posts that is ok with me. always a possibility of what you think is correct.

However, there also is a possibility that I dont think as you think. What I post could be taken – range from You dont know what you are talking about to there are so much to learn and time change a person’s perspective …etc.

as for technical discussion, well, we all can have different perspective isnt it? such as you belive in clamping knees in one fist distance and I believe in egronomical.

as for logic, everyone has thier logic, as I said, when I was a teen, my logic is my parents are wrong. When I am a father, then my teen son is wrong.

hahaha. I figure out this passed years that Everything is OK or accepting whatever other’s logic is and not wanting to change anything is the best because that set me free.
See, one cannot change others logic but can set oneself free.

As for what is reality about the Emei and White CRane stories which passed down from the ancestors, reality is reality, it doesnt matter what you or me think. and. I dont make those theory. I just show there are a fit in evidents.

Again, I take discussion is not arguement.

peace

117

Hello Hendrik,

We’re obviously dealing with a language problem here as you repeatedly talk about “not interested in arguments…win/lose situation” etc. . The word “argument” or “to argue” does not always mean “to fight, have a disagreement.” That’s just one of the meanings. In a discussion it means “to present a discussion point.” Here are some links to help you on your way:

http://www.thefreedictionary.com/argument

(look at No. 2 above)

http://www.bartleby.com/62/88/A0088800.html

(see No. 1 and No. 3 above)

http://www.highbeam.com/ref/doc3.asp?docid=1O998:argument

(See No. 2 and No. 3 above, especially the synonyms)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argument

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Logical_argument

That should do it. It helps a discussion tremendously if one of the discussion partners actually understands what the other person is talking about. I hope now you know what I mean by “argument.” The meaning is usually obvious from the context, but since you are not a native speaker, I can understand your confusion.

Take care,
Mustafa

118

Mustafa,

Thank you and appreciate .

IMHO, the way you carried the “argument” within your post. it seems for me it “fit” that one of the meaning.

argument
noun 1. the couple had an argument
synonyms: disagreement, quarrel, squabble, fight, difference of opinion, dispute, clash, altercation, controversy, feud; inf. tiff, falling out.

Again, I am not interesting in Taking a position and argue based on " that position" type of arguement . That is because I dont disagree with you or your position or dispute with your ideas .

I just accept and respect your claim and ideas as that is your believe and your perspective. In your stand point or mind set or position you took, you obviously are correct. So what to argue about? I am not interested to change you or your position.

Now, Saying that,
we might be able to investigate the facts of "is clamping the knees in one fist distance ergonomical? can that stance be even safe if one use that stance for weight lifting? what is the facts?

In my view,
No arguement needs to be there, just observe and investigate and compare notes.
The outcome is everyone learn more about the subject and everyone win. Just investigate what it is.

if that is the principle, That you can count me in.

So,
no win or lost.
no one needs others’ approval.
no one needs to control others.
No “guilty until proven innorcent” type of manupulative mind game tacting .

IE : one side make claim on other party is “wrong”. and the wrong can be “correct” only until the other side’s reason is satisfied and “approved” by the judgmental side.

so, one side sitting around “controlling” while the other side working to death trying to get the “approval” of the other side.

Otherwise, sorry, one can dis-approved of the sun is hot. or taking the position of a blind man that every where is dark etc. How can one argue with a blind man about the color of hair or the sun is bright?

those type of engagement just get one stuck. and for me, that is not that Wing Chun, because it is not “set free and move forward” but totally stuck.

Saying that, some might love to argue for arguement shake. well, different people love different stuffs. I totally respect thier choice just I am not interested in those stuffs.

Peace

119

You see, IMHO, making an accusation as the above is not discussion but off mark personal attack; and it is subjective to taking things personal.

I brought up the hexagan 15 of iching or modesty hexagram because someone make a claim such as " I understand the whole ying/yang theory".

So, I decide to discuss with him how much he really understood about Ying/Yang Theory. So, I show him the hexagram 15.

This is similar to if someone makes a claim that he knows WCK then showing him Tan Sau he will smile or show a fook sau back or show a bong sau back…etc. such as you show ying, I will show Yang…etc.

That straight forward. Anyone who knows ICHING or Ying/yang theory will recognize the hex 15’s uniqueness. what is the meaning behind it. note: recognize/ know, not “thinking” they know. but really know what is it.

So, for those who is not familiar with IChing or the book of change,

ICHing is about Ying/Yang and the 15 hexagram has a very unique characteristics within the 64 hexagan. what is the uniqueness? I left that to the true chinese culture and classical scholar to explain it. pay attention to the foot note.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/ic15.htm

So, again, people can take whatever I post as they like it. But what is it such as the 15th Hexagram of IChing is not up for anyone’s intepretation. Either one knows it or one dont. and if one dont, one always can learn. However, if one took an accusation path. Then, that show how much one understand about Ying/Yang.

Thus, similarly, old Chinese culture and practice which is beyond 100 years ago are deep. there are much to learn. I dont claim I know it all. However, what I can say based on what I have heard from the experts , until one attain some state one cant reason them with logic because thier logic is different then ours. Those are not about accumulation of knowledge or mimic posture, but wisdom and states with insight. That is a limitless journey…

The hexagram 15 is just a basic for those educate chinese who live in ancient time. how can I be the Master of Understanding? Nope I am far from the Master but a student.

As for power generation, again, I dont think it needs to get personal or compete for who is stronger to show who is correct. because it is the nature we are discussing not about who is stronger.

If you are interested, just see if the knees clamping with one fist distance ergonomic and supporting human body and action. simple stuffs which can be tested out in the sport lab, get that data and we all can be benifit to know whether following that knees clamping path or not.
plain and simple and everyone win.

As for “Hendrik obviously has no idea about wing chun,” you have just said it, According to Mustafa, Hendrik obviously has no diea about Wing Chun. just conclude it here. so dont need to wait for next year and waste your time.

As you said " this is the end ". That is great for we are living with a different world view and logic. So, why not say good bye here with kindness.

Thank you for your sharing.

just some thoughts

120

originally posted by hendrik
You see, making an accusation as the above is not discussion but off mark personal attack; and it is subjective to taking things personal.
hendrik,
That was not a personal attack against you it’s just your usual way of crying foul while trying to deflect the discussion away from the flaws of your theory plain and simple.