The Pole Dummy or "Kwun Jong"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

I want one of these! When I have a place big enough to accommodate it I plan to build one. It looks like it would be easy enough.

This is the pole dummy from Tang Yik Weng Chun. It is a large frame that holds 7 poles that the practitioner trains against. At one point there was only maybe only 1 or 2 of these in existence. Youll see below that Sergio says there are 3 and Derek says there are 5 and I found video of someone with at least 1 more. So as people see this on youtube there will likely be more of them showing up in schools and backyards.

Why is it not more well known, like Wing Chuns Wooden Dummy you might ask? Well, according to Sifu Sergios research, Yip Man did quite a bit of cross-training with friends at the Dai Dak Lan when he lived in Hong Kong. From what I understand, the Dai Dak Lan was a warehouse in the fish market area. In China the wooden dummy or Mook Yan Jong was sunk into the ground like a post. In Hong Kong at the Dai Dak Lan is where it is believed that the first wall-mounted dummy was invented. Yip Man saw this, took some measurements, and had Koo Sang make one for him. Yip Man trained with Tang Yik at the Dai Dak Lan and is said to have refined the pole that he already knew and learned a bit more from Tang Yik. But Yip Man never saw the Kwun Jong because Tang Yik kept it on the roof of his apartment building rather than at the Dai Dak Lan. Who knows? If Yip Man had seen and trained on Tang Yiks Kwun Jong, it would probably be a regular part of Wing Chun today!

Here Sifu Sergio gives us an introduction and background to the Kwun Jong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7rEZD2dyVgU

Derek Rozanski (VingDragon) was a regular active member of this forum at one time. But like a lot of the older guys with good things to say, he either got tired of the nonsense that goes on here, or was just plain driven away. He started out with Andreas Hoffman and became rather disillusioned with what Hoffman was saying and doing. So he sought out some of the original Weng Chun people and has studied Michael Tang (Tang Yiks descendent) as well as others. Derek built the first Kwun Jong in the US. Here he is talking about it and demoing:

Kwun Jong 1:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0lLZbXxbG8I

Kwun Jong 2:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=X2utDXKelxo

Michael Tang demoing on the Kwun Jong:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hCK06318jGk&list=UUrsJrRLUVFTvbWv-y6_Jy7A

Finally, someone in the states that has made one for themself just based on photos:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VTquJeHrqms

Derek has also built a smaller 3 pole version based on the original:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Mz8hB3eSbUg

Id be remiss if I did not re-post the footage of Tang Yik himself doing the pole. I know many have seen it already, but its worth repeating just because the man was so impressive with the pole!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CBic0U0_M0M

So has anyone else built one of these yet and given it a go?

2

Yip Man trained with Tang Yik at the Dai Dak Lan and is said to have refined the pole that he already knew and learned a bit more from Tang Yik

That’s the first I’ve heard of it being Tang Yik that Ip Man trained with. What’s the source on that?

3

[QUOTE=Eric_H;1251654]That’s the first I’ve heard of it being Tang Yik that Ip Man trained with. What’s the source on that?[/QUOTE]

Tang Yik, Chu Chong Man, and others. Sifu Sergio stated this in one of his articles for Wing Chun Illustrated. He has traveled and interviewed direct students of the Wing Chun Masters involved. But I’ve read it in other places as well. Yip Man also spent time with Yuen Kay Shan. I think when you look at forms from the different lineages, Yip Man’s forms are more simliar to Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nung lineage than they are to the Chan Wah Shun lineage. But that’s a topic for another thread. :wink:

4

I think it was Robert Chu who once posited the theory that maybe Yip Man never actually met Leung Bik in Hong Kong, as he’d claimed. That YM used this story so that his teachers would not lose face knowing that he had improved his skills with someone outside of their line of Wing Chun.

If I remember correctly, Robert said that maybe Leung Bik in Yip Man’s story, was actually Yuen Kay San.

It makes some sense, as we know YM did meet with YKS and also with Sum Nung, and certain things we do today in YM WT/VT/WC come from YSK Wing Chun.

5

I think there have been several names put forward for who "Leung Bik’ might have been had the YM story not been true. Another example besides those mentioned in this thread is Chu Chong Man.

They all definitely did some training together, I think a quick google search of “Yip Man Chu Chong Man” will show pictures of them together, possibly at dai duk lan.

I actually didn’t know that the Gwon Jong was such a rarity. My Sigong has one, but now that I think about it, one of his sifus also had a title like “King of the Gwon,” so maybe it came from him. Although it could be that some YM lineages have it and use it and dont mention it often because they dont have a form for it. I only noticed my Sigong’s because I had heard about the Gwon Jong before and seen a picture so when I saw it I was like “oh wow, is that a pole dummy?” To which my sifu said yes.

6

[QUOTE=BPWT;1251660]I think it was Robert Chu who once posited the theory that maybe Yip Man never actually met Leung Bik in Hong Kong, as he’d claimed. That YM used this story so that his teachers would not lose face knowing that he had improved his skills with someone outside of their line of Wing Chun.

If I remember correctly, Robert said that maybe Leung Bik in Yip Man’s story, was actually Yuen Kay San.

It makes some sense, as we know YM did meet with YKS and also with Sum Nung, and certain things we do today in YM WT/VT/WC come from YSK Wing Chun.[/QUOTE]

Good grief- success has a thousand fathers

March on through the fog!!

7

Joy is right on the mark. people claim their wing chun comes from a better source than Yip Man so they can make money on being different. People that claim Leung Bik was really Yuen Kai Shan and other such stuff is garbage and the result of biased research.

Their was one person that had enough wing chun knowledge to know the truth and everyone that makes these claims conveniently ignores him. Jui Wan was already a wing chun Sifu in Fatshan and he was friends with and knew first hand YKS and everyone else. When his son asked him why become Yip Man’s student after he moved to HK in 1953 he was very clear. In Fatshan Yip’s wing chun was like everyone else’s. When they met up in 1953 Yip’s wing chun was both different and better. Jui Wan asked Yip what was different and where it came from and Yip told him he learned from Leung Bik. Jui Wan asked to learn this from Yip Man and so became Yip’s student. . This was also before the time of the Yip learning from Dai Duk lan stories. When asked Yip was clear that while similar Weng Chun and his Wing Chun were different from different sources.

If you want to call a dead man a liar that is your right but Jui Wan was highly skilled and knew very well the difference between The wing chun in Fatshan and Yip’s HK wing chun

8

Hunt1:

The Leung Bik story may very well be true. That still does not negate the idea that Yip Man spent time with Yuen Kay Shan or at the Dai Duk Lan with the Weng Chun guys there. I noted Yip Man expanding on his knowledge of the pole by working with Tang Yik. That may be completely separate from anything he learned from Leung Bik.

Yuen Kay Shan, Chu Chong Man, Tang Yik…all historical people documented and known. Leung Bik? Not much known about him at all.

Eternalspring:

Who is your Sigung that has the Kwun Jong?

9

Don’t take my word for it. Judge for yourself:

Chan Wah Shun lineage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1RlwzKAcnI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobs0Kh-f7I

Yuen Kay San lineage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX9KviQDMGA

10

[QUOTE=hunt1;1251678]Joy is right on the mark. people claim their wing chun comes from a better source than Yip Man so they can make money on being different. People that claim Leung Bik was really Yuen Kai Shan and other such stuff is garbage and the result of biased research.

Their was one person that had enough wing chun knowledge to know the truth and everyone that makes these claims conveniently ignores him. Jui Wan was already a wing chun Sifu in Fatshan and he was friends with and knew first hand YKS and everyone else. When his son asked him why become Yip Man’s student after he moved to HK in 1953 he was very clear. In Fatshan Yip’s wing chun was like everyone else’s. When they met up in 1953 Yip’s wing chun was both different and better. Jui Wan asked Yip what was different and where it came from and Yip told him he learned from Leung Bik. Jui Wan asked to learn this from Yip Man and so became Yip’s student. . This was also before the time of the Yip learning from Dai Duk lan stories. When asked Yip was clear that while similar Weng Chun and his Wing Chun were different from different sources.

If you want to call a dead man a liar that is your right but Jui Wan was highly skilled and knew very well the difference between The wing chun in Fatshan and Yip’s HK wing chun[/QUOTE]

good post.

11

Kwok Fu now deceased was an early mainland student of Ip Man and knew IM contemporaries like YKS. There is a controversial interview in Chinese with him on youtube where with smiles he talks about crossing hands with YKS and some remarks by IM about being careful in doing the jong when YKS was around.

Chu Chong Man was a distant relative and friend of IM hence the visits. Weng chun stances are quite different from IM’s stances.

12

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1251692]Kwok Fu now deceased was an early mainland student of Ip Man and knew IM contemporaries like YKS. There is a controversial interview in Chinese with him on youtube where with smiles he talks about crossing hands with YKS and some remarks by IM about being careful in doing the jong when YKS was around.

Chu Chong Man was a distant relative and friend of IM hence the visits. Weng chun stances are quite different from IM’s stances.[/QUOTE]

Do you have a link for the interview, Joy?

Out of interest, is there anyone else who spoke of knowing Leung Bik in Hong Kong?

13

Certainly every group has its own spin on things, and Sifu Sergio has found some interesting info over the years. :slight_smile:

Also I saw this a while back…

"Yiu Wing Ken (Yiu Chois grandson) explains that, in the old days in Futsan, Yuen Kay San, his grandfather Yiu Choi, and Yip Man were called the “Three Heroes of Wing Chun” and were often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San student, Leung Jan Sing, also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Fung Siu Ching, who learnt Wimng Chun on the Red Boats, while Yip Man and others studied under Yuen Kay San himself. This record was actually made public in the 1970’s but had not been publicly disseminated in the West. Yip Man was not Yuens official student, having only learnt a little from him. Yuen Kay San taught Yip Man all the chi sau Yip knew - but this was not all that Yuen Kay San knew. In the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, that is, he was unarguably the top Wing Chun man during his lifetime, with Yip Man being listed the last. It would be normal, therefore, as he did, for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.

“Yip Chun also misrepresented the facts of Leung Jans biography and reports on his life from several independent sources in claiming to have known Leung Bik whom he portrayed in the movie. He did not know Leung Bik. No Leung Bik ever taught Yip Man. Yip Man was taught by Ng Chung So. Leung Bik was a romantic fiction derived to promote Hong Kong Wing Chun in the early days. Yip obtained superior skills to his class-mates in Futsan by learning from Yuen Kay San. In fact, Yips father at one stage, asked his friend,Yuen Kay Sans father to teach Yip Man some Wing Chun.”

http://yunhoiwingchun.com.au/articles/general/yuen-kay-san-was-the-top-wing-chun-sifu

14

[QUOTE=BPWT;1251703]Certainly every group has its own spin on things, and Sifu Sergio has found some interesting info over the years. :slight_smile:

Also I saw this a while back…

"Yiu Wing Ken (Yiu Choi’s grandson) explains that, in the old days in Futsan, Yuen Kay San, his grandfather Yiu Choi, and Yip Man were called the “Three Heroes of Wing Chun” and were often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San student, Leung Jan Sing, also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Fung Siu Ching, who learnt Wimng Chun on the Red Boats, while Yip Man and others studied under Yuen Kay San himself. This record was actually made public in the 1970’s but had not been publicly disseminated in the West. Yip Man was not Yuen’s official student, having only learnt a little from him. Yuen Kay San taught Yip Man all the chi sau Yip knew - but this was not all that Yuen Kay San knew. In the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, that is, he was unarguably the top Wing Chun man during his lifetime, with Yip Man being listed the last. It would be normal, therefore, as he did, for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.

“Yip Chun also misrepresented the facts of Leung Jan’s biography and reports on his life from several independent sources in claiming to have known Leung Bik whom he portrayed in the movie. He did not know Leung Bik. No Leung Bik ever taught Yip Man. Yip Man was taught by Ng Chung So. Leung Bik was a romantic fiction derived to promote Hong Kong Wing Chun in the early days. Yip obtained superior skills to his class-mates in Futsan by learning from Yuen Kay San. In fact, Yip’s father at one stage, asked his friend,Yuen Kay San’s father to teach Yip Man some Wing Chun.”

http://yunhoiwingchun.com.au/articles/general/yuen-kay-san-was-the-top-wing-chun-sifu[/QUOTE]

For gods sake, does a link here or there, or someones opinion make it so?

Heres my lineage just to confuse the matter… Leung Biks brother

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.LeungChun

Honestly, its all hearsay, unsubstantiated opinion and rumour ,all of this “who learnt what of who stuff”

Does it really matter anymore?

15

No, it doesn’t make it so - just food for thought. :slight_smile:

Interesting to think about where stuff might have come from, and why. Doesn’t really matter when someone’s trying to kick you in the nuts. :smiley:

Maybe it all originally came from a snake getting frisky with a crane, watched by a fox and with a voyeur nun taking notes and… nah! Maybe not.

:slight_smile:

16

Honestly, its all hearsay, unsubstantiated opinion and rumour ,all of this “who learnt what of who stuff”

This is true. That’s why I posted those video clips so people could have a look for themselves. There is no doubt that Yip Man “did his own thing” and was truly the GrandMaster of “Yip Man Wing Chun.” But there is also no doubt that Yip Man had multiple influences in developing his Wing Chun. Exactly what those where and to what extent is all conjecture now. But some things tend to make more sense and fit the story better than others. :wink:

17

Yes. Interesting article. Some years back I used to correspond with Zopa on a regular basis. He had lots of interesting things to say about the relationship between Yip Man and Yuen Kay San. His intel was based upon direct conversations with Sum Nun himself. Most has never been made public, and its not for me to do so. But what has been said here so far is consistent with what Zopa told me that Sum Nun told him. But as has been said…it all really makes little difference now. Heck…even the guys that learned from Wong Shun Leung can’t agree on his “true” teachings, so how would we ever sort out what Yip Man may have learned?

[QUOTE=BPWT;1251703]Certainly every group has its own spin on things, and Sifu Sergio has found some interesting info over the years. :slight_smile:

Also I saw this a while back…

"Yiu Wing Ken (Yiu Choi’s grandson) explains that, in the old days in Futsan, Yuen Kay San, his grandfather Yiu Choi, and Yip Man were called the “Three Heroes of Wing Chun” and were often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San student, Leung Jan Sing, also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Fung Siu Ching, who learnt Wimng Chun on the Red Boats, while Yip Man and others studied under Yuen Kay San himself. This record was actually made public in the 1970’s but had not been publicly disseminated in the West. Yip Man was not Yuen’s official student, having only learnt a little from him. Yuen Kay San taught Yip Man all the chi sau Yip knew - but this was not all that Yuen Kay San knew. In the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, that is, he was unarguably the top Wing Chun man during his lifetime, with Yip Man being listed the last. It would be normal, therefore, as he did, for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.

“Yip Chun also misrepresented the facts of Leung Jan’s biography and reports on his life from several independent sources in claiming to have known Leung Bik whom he portrayed in the movie. He did not know Leung Bik. No Leung Bik ever taught Yip Man. Yip Man was taught by Ng Chung So. Leung Bik was a romantic fiction derived to promote Hong Kong Wing Chun in the early days. Yip obtained superior skills to his class-mates in Futsan by learning from Yuen Kay San. In fact, Yip’s father at one stage, asked his friend,Yuen Kay San’s father to teach Yip Man some Wing Chun.”

http://yunhoiwingchun.com.au/articles/general/yuen-kay-san-was-the-top-wing-chun-sifu[/QUOTE]

18

[QUOTE=BPWT;1251701]Do you have a link for the interview, Joy?

860 for Interview with Kwok Fu on you tube

A Secret Interview with Legendary Gwok Fu , Wing … - YouTube

Google the above topic.

19

Originally Posted by BPWT View Post
Certainly every group has its own spin on things, and Sifu Sergio has found some interesting info over the years.

Also I saw this a while back…

"Yiu Wing Ken (Yiu Choi’s grandson) explains that, in the old days in Futsan, Yuen Kay San, his grandfather Yiu Choi, and Yip Man were called the “Three Heroes of Wing Chun” and were often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San student, Leung Jan Sing, also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Fung Siu Ching, who learnt Wimng Chun on the Red Boats, while Yip Man and others studied under Yuen Kay San himself. This record was actually made public in the 1970’s but had not been publicly disseminated in the West. Yip Man was not Yuen’s official student, having only learnt a little from him. Yuen Kay San taught Yip Man all the chi sau Yip knew - but this was not all that Yuen Kay San knew. In the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, that is, he was unarguably the top Wing Chun man during his lifetime, with Yip Man being listed the last. It would be normal, therefore, as he did, for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.

“Yip Chun also misrepresented the facts of Leung Jan’s biography and reports on his life from several independent sources in claiming to have known Leung Bik whom he portrayed in the movie. He did not know Leung Bik. No Leung Bik ever taught Yip Man. Yip Man was taught by Ng Chung So. Leung Bik was a romantic fiction derived to promote Hong Kong Wing Chun in the early days. Yip obtained superior skills to his class-mates in Futsan by learning from Yuen Kay San. In fact, Yip’s father at one stage, asked his friend,Yuen Kay San’s father to teach Yip Man some Wing Chun.”

For what it’s worth. An oral legend passed down to me from the Nguyen Duy Hai line states pretty much the same story. Nguyen Duy Hai was a disciple of Ruan Ji Yun and brother of Ruan Kai Shan. Ruan Ji Yun was the teacher of Yu Cai. It was also stated that Leung Bik (Liang Bi) was actually an adopted son of Liang Zan by the name of Fang Hua, and it was Chen Hua Shun that called him Liang Bi (Stubborn Liang).

20

[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1251726]A Secret Interview with Legendary Gwok Fu , Wing … - YouTube. Google the above topic.[/QUOTE]

Many thanks! :slight_smile: