The Pole Dummy or "Kwun Jong"

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=KPM;1251655]Tang Yik, Chu Chong Man, and others. Sifu Sergio stated this in one of his articles for Wing Chun Illustrated. He has traveled and interviewed direct students of the Wing Chun Masters involved. But I’ve read it in other places as well. Yip Man also spent time with Yuen Kay Shan. I think when you look at forms from the different lineages, Yip Man’s forms are more simliar to Yuen Kay Shan/Sum Nung lineage than they are to the Chan Wah Shun lineage. But that’s a topic for another thread. ;-)[/QUOTE]

Actually, I’ve heard directly from some of that crowd too that GM Ip didn’t train with Chu Chong Man, but had some interactions with him. I don’t know about Tang Yik.

I think there may be some muddy waters there between “yeah he knew that guy” and “he spent some time training with him”

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[QUOTE=Eric_H;1251780]Actually, I’ve heard directly from some of that crowd too that GM Ip didn’t train with Chu Chong Man, but had some interactions with him. I don’t know about Tang Yik.

I think there may be some muddy waters there between “yeah he knew that guy” and “he spent some time training with him”[/QUOTE]

You may very well be right! As Joy has pointed out, Weng Chun stances and body dynamics are quite different than Wing Chun’s as far as the empty-hand methods go. However, the pole is very similar. The most solid thing I’ve read is that Yip Man expanded his knowledge of the pole by working with Tang Yik. This seems reasonable to me. After all, Tang Yik was widely known as “King of the Long Pole.” Who wouldn’t want to take advantage of spending some time with him? There was a “conclave” of Weng Chun guys that trained together and exchanged knowledge at the Dai Duk Lan. Yip Man has never been said to have been part of this group. It’s only be said that he knew them and visited at times. But it wouldn’t be unreasonable to think that he took Tang Yik aside and said “hey brother, show me some of that Long Pole that you are so famous for!” :wink:

The Yuen Kay San connection is something else altogether. This was well before Yip Man’s move to Hong Kong.

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[QUOTE=Eric_H;1251780]Actually, I’ve heard directly from some of that crowd too that GM Ip didn’t train with Chu Chong Man, but had some interactions with him. I don’t know about Tang Yik.

I think there may be some muddy waters there between “yeah he knew that guy” and “he spent some time training with him”[/QUOTE]
__________________________________________________________________________-
Chu chong man was a distant relative and friend. Ip Man knew martial artists from other styles as well including CLF. A bid inductive leap from that to claim that Ip Man learned wing chun from Chu Chong Man’s weng chun.

Tan Yik’s pole work is impressive and acrobatic but again the body structure is different from Ip Man.
Also Ip Man’s pole does not make than two sounds.

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[QUOTE=Vajramusti;1251847]_______________________________

Tan Yik’s pole work is impressive and acrobatic but again the body structure is different from Ip Man.
Also Ip Man’s pole does not make than two sounds.[/QUOTE]

I guess we can all see different things. But a low horse, cat stance, forward/brace stance, centerline structure…all seems pretty similar to me. I watch the footage of Tang Yik and I see just about everything from Yip Man’s pole, plus more.

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[QUOTE=KPM;1251880]I guess we can all see different things. But a low horse, cat stance, forward/brace stance, centerline structure…all seems pretty similar to me. I watch the footage of Tang Yik and I see just about everything from Yip Man’s pole, plus more.[/QUOTE]

I don’t expect anyone to just take my word for it. Judge for yourselves:

Yip Man Lineage Pole:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hV8HadGNc6I&list=PL6F765C2A372175C5

Tang Yik:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZPIoNJqqYkI

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[QUOTE=KPM;1251685]Don’t take my word for it. Judge for yourself:

Chan Wah Shun lineage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B1RlwzKAcnI

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hobs0Kh-f7I

Yuen Kay San lineage:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PDpx5juWHX0

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HX9KviQDMGA[/QUOTE]

As I said before, there is no question that Yip Man’s Wing Chun was his own formulation, and a ****ed good one! :slight_smile: But we can still ask ourselves, was Yip Man’s Wing Chun influenced by Yuen Kay San? I invite you to form your own opinion. Below are two overview/demo videos. If you don’t watch the whole thing, at least just skip through at random and check out what they are doing. Granted, I think that the Chan Wah Shun lineage has likely undergone a bit of “expansion” since Yip Man’s day, but still…which one looks the most like Yip Man’s Wing Chun to you?

More Chan Wah Shun lineage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G304i7ZnX4M

More Yuen Kay San lineage:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=avDKTLyRP3Q

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Here’s Wong Shun Leung doing the Pole:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dATeDTE8zUc

Again, compare to Tang Yik. Much more similarities than differences. IMHO, Yip Man Pole and Tang Yik pole are essentially the same. But Tang Yik pole is more comprehensive in its scope of techniques. You might say that Yip Man pole is just a part of Tang Yik’s larger pole method. At least that’s what I see. Take a look and decide for yourself. :wink:

Here is the Pole as taught by Yip Man before he moved to Hong Kong:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_GLue5dZZIk

Note that the stances are a bit higher and the “snap” not as pronounced. This could just be due to the skill level of the people in the video.

I’m not saying that Yip Man learned his Pole Form from Tang Yik. But their Pole methods were obviously from the same source, and not “completely different” as some might say. What I AM saying is that it is reasonable to think that Yip Man got some pointers on the Pole from the man known as “King of the Long Pole” when he made his occasional visits to his friends at the Dai Duk Lan. Yip Man may not have been very interested in their empty hand methods, because they did vary quite a bit from his own. But this simply was not true of the Pole methods.

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[QUOTE=dlcox;1251729]For what it’s worth. An oral legend passed down to me from the Nguyen Duy Hai line states pretty much the same story. Nguyen Duy Hai was a disciple of Ruan Ji Yun and brother of Ruan Kai Shan. Ruan Ji Yun was the teacher of Yu Cai. It was also stated that Leung Bik (Liang Bi) was actually an adopted son of Liang Zan by the name of Fang Hua, and it was Chen Hua Shun that called him Liang Bi (Stubborn Liang).[/QUOTE]

This corroborates with what I’ve heard too, only difference being that Fung Wah was just mentioned as Leung Jan’s student and not his adopted son.

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Sacomani as an example of good Ip Man pole usage is nonsense.
IMO=the stances in weng chun and Ip Man pole work are different.
Ip Man’s kwan work is less flowery than many and it is related to his structure, stance and hand work
Watching videos and regular instruction in developing a skill are different things.
In forums everyone has opinions-understandable and ok by me.

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I really enjoy this thread. Have you been aware of Sifu Sergio video with Weng Chun grandmaster Cheng Kwong? Also are 3 video from Sifu Maria discuss with Cheng Kwong some technics about Chi Sim Weng Chun.

on side note earlier I was in LA for Shaolin event and saw Yip Man Wing Chun Grandmaster William Cheung (awesome to see him in person!) was taking photo with Benny Meng. I thought they don’t get along and the situation looked very awkward. Last night I saw those photos online then come across some discussion on FB surrounding Samuel Kwok get heat by Benny Meng and his student Alex Magnos attacking name and memory of GM Yip Man!

On this page https://www.facebook.com/planetvingwingtsun I saw Cheng Kwong video interview first time, then saw news about Yip Man Wing Chun under fire by Benny Meng’s group.

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New update I wish to share. Just read looks like official response from Sifu Shannon Moore from TWC Asscociation on FB moments ago. This in regarding theory that BennyMeng make some connection to Willaim Cheung during the Shaolin Temple Cultural Festival in LA last weekend. I copy text below.

This is Sifu Shannon Moore, Executive Director of the Global Traditional Wing Chun Association headed by GM William Cheung. For the record, we have no affiliation whatsoever with Benny Meng or his Black flag organization. We do not acknowledge nor condone nor support any of his activities or his organization. Any image of GM William Cheung or any other representative of the GTWCKFA or event that is used will be WITHOUT our consent. The image(s) described were purely happen stance photo opportunities NOT initiated by the GTWCKFA.

This is some parts of post Shannon Moore made commentary on @ https://www.facebook.com/planetvingwingtsun click link to read full post by Victor Ruscher:

Since our friend J has gone out to serve so much has happened in the last few days it is quite incredible. Why is there such hatred spewing out from this fake Black Flag museum guy to go against our Ip Man clan? He was from Ip Man clan via Moy Yat. Is this some sort of revenge for Moy Yat taking back his personal items from the VTM all those years ago??? Their comments speak for themselves. Samuel Kwok is willing to stand up for his family. Who else will join Samuel Kwok? Now just within last 24-48 hrs reports that Meng could be using photos of him with William Cheung of TWC for his own agenda too but I am hearing William Cheung wants nothing to do with this snake in the grass.

Victor Ruscher

Oh man I am infuriated right now! I cannot believe how hot my blood is boiling right now at the injustice happening to our treasured Ip Man family and I think it is time we come together. We are under attack and have been, family. This is a silent war being perpetrated by people without principle and who are very unethical. Why can’t we stay idle hoping the storm passes? And whom is waging this war? What are the stakes? Looks at these three comments by these leeches.

[B]Kenneth Lin write on Oct 28, 2012: Proud to be your Sifu, Suhu Meng. Spread the true words of HKB Lets reclaim the true bloodline of Wing Chun LOL

Benny Meng write on Oct 13, 2013 insulting Samuel Kwok photo attach below: I know what kind of person he is. Have no skill also.

Alex Magnos write on Oct 13, 2013, insulting Yip Man heritage and history: and for the sake of truth - Ip Man Wing Chun was indeed made up also… and by whom?? by Ip Man himself, of course… only a dumb-ass doesn’t know that, but even so, who cares?? some people really are full of BS!!![/B]

etc…
etc…
etc…

Sigung Kwok: Benny Ming Black Flag Wing Chun make up fake Wing Chun is trying to destroy Ip Man Wing Chun It will never happened because of us

Sigung SAMUEL KWOK is RIGHT about that snake oil salesman Benny Meng!!! Samuel Kwok really standing up for the future of Ip Man Clan against those Black Flag Bandits plan to destroy Ip Man Ving Tsun. He is now first in public figure to denounce them. I am proud that he takes this position, I think other legit Ving Tsun clans can no longer afford to ignore the dangers ahread.

Now take a look at this photos with William Cheung and Benny Meng stealing a photo op. https://www.facebook.com/hfmeng/media_set?set=a.3437728036704.112401.1675614975&type=1

Case of entrapment? How the hell would William Cheung allow this fake character Meng of made up Wing Chun use his image and for what, to promote his false made up Black Flag nonexistent Kuntao? Everyone knows William Cheung hates this @$$ h0le. I hope he doesnt let that pos get away with that again.

etc…
I hope this should clear doubts of TWC connecting to Black Flag as pretty clean cut to me based on this response. Was thinking they try to make some Shoalin connection together. NIGHT MARE!!! LOL.

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Why are you posting the crap on my thread? It has NOTHING to do with the topic of the thread. Start your own topic if you want us to be aware of this.

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Here are some more videos of Weng Chun Pole. Still looks very very similar to Yip Man Pole to me.

This time it is Pak Cheung:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3S-VmTg4xKs&feature=player_embedded

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Yq73JRPJPEc

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Tang Yiks Video

KPM just to help with your understanding of the Tang Yik video The first part of the video is the actual Luk Dim Bun but only a very short glimpse of the form. It is a very long form. Somewhere maybe halfway through you see chinese characters then the pole continues. This second part is NOT Luk Dim Bun but it is whats called ‘Kwan Kung’. It is taught as a preliminary to the LDBK to prepare you, and that also is only a small portion of the Kwan Kung. Nowhere on the web have I seen the entire Luk Dim Bun Kwan posted in video. The Stances used in Wing Chun are used in Weng Chun as well as others.

Ellis West

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[QUOTE=snakebyte8;1269160]KPM just to help with your understanding of the Tang Yik video The first part of the video is the actual Luk Dim Bun but only a very short glimpse of the form. It is a very long form. Somewhere maybe halfway through you see chinese characters then the pole continues. This second part is NOT Luk Dim Bun but it is whats called ‘Kwan Kung’. It is taught as a preliminary to the LDBK to prepare you, and that also is only a small portion of the Kwan Kung. Nowhere on the web have I seen the entire Luk Dim Bun Kwan posted in video. The Stances used in Wing Chun are used in Weng Chun as well as others.

Ellis West[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the input! It would be nice to find some footage of the entire form.

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I’m pretty certain no footage of the complete form is online at this time and not likely in the future either.

Ellis West