The Lineage of Yip Man

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Chinese say, one day as a Sifu, one life time as a father
And to honour the Sifu, the way, ancestors

These years I have heard many stories on Yip Man, whose decision to teach wingchun in Hongkong, and to Bruce Lee, is the reason why many even know of wingchun in the western World. However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything, Someone sent his student to beat up Yip man, He was taught the wrong forms, He wasnt a good teacher etc. He lied about Leung Bik, the elder son of Leung Jan whose only student was Yip Man, which explains the difference in simplicity and internal elements different from Chan Wah Shun Lineage

Here I present from China, what is said about him from the legendary 90yrs old Sifu Gwok Fu. In this video, he talks about Master Yip Man, Master Yuen Kay San, Wong Shun Leung, William Cheung, Bruce Lee’s father, Dim Mak etc…
In the written piece accompanying the video, it is written he mentions Leung Bik

http://cache.qihoo.com/wenda.php?do=snap&act=fetchHtmlsnap&m=b18b844601a6b34e0b7cbf8c36f946c1&surl=http3A%2F%2F1293633.qzone.qq.com%2Fblog%2F1228575809&kw=����������ɽӽ��
http://bbs.ttx.com.cn/dispbbs.asp?boardid=16&id=1265345&star=1&page=1

While I take somethings with a pinch of salt(I am just biased), but then again I wasnt there. I didnt sit in the same space as Yuen Kay San, Yip Man, Yiu Choi, Gwok Fu, the greats of Wingchun. He was there, trained, talked, had tea with them.
Rumours and stories from people present about people passed. Nothing can be verified. Master Gwok Fu who describes Master Yuen Kay San’s art as Fast and Ruthless, said he matched him in Gor Sao. Someone said Master Yuen Kay San also learnt from Ng Chun So, but then again I wasnt there, and I might not believe, or want to believe what this Great Man said- yeah its silly, I know. Everything I have seen of Master Yuen and Master Sum Nung in China- where he is recognised and honoured as the most Traditional of Wingchun, from Sum Nung’s students, sifus is mindblowing impressive! Anyone has a time machine?

By all current China records, Yiu Choi, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were legends in Guangzhou-the 3 heros, even before Yip Man went to hongkong. They were seen together often, training together, even overlooking each other students. So the rumour something is missing in Yip Man, he didnt learn everything, students beat up an elder, presumes the masters didnt exchange, werent close. This would not make sense. They definately exchanged their arts, points, concepts. If your training buddy had a technique, theory you didnt have, you would either try to learn it right? One thing is for sure, they had great respect for each other and were amiable together, as the whole provice had for 3 of them.

In China, they still think the world of Yip Man, hence the chinese goverment build Yip man Tong, ironically, Yip Man became world wide famous in hongkong.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone’s life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik. The Chinese goverment even detailed how many sons he had, and that they went to vietnam to teach. Also Sifu Garry recently posted 3 documents archived in Yip Man Tong, that Yip man said, Leung Bik handed to him.

http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/11/20081112112113-1.htm
http://www.heshan.gov.cn/html/2008/06/20080618175756-1.htm
http://gulao.heshan.gov.cn/html/2003/08/20030814102711-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2008/01/20080110111915-1.htm
http://www.gdheshan.gov.cn/html/2007/03/20070320174136-1.htm

The confirmation of Leung Bik explains to me, why Leung Sheung’s art is soft, relaxed and powerful, like a women’s art, as taught by Kenneth Chung, and described by my Sigung Peter Yang- that Leung Sheung taught him a internal soft art. Why Sigung Yip Chun always says to relaxed, to be sung, to use just enough energy. Why Master Hawkins and Bruce Lee said, Yip Man controlled them gently on their feet, in chi sao, with very slight movement or no movement, versus the more. In internal arts, a little energy is all it takes. From big movement to small movement, from small movement to no movement. According to Master Wang Xiang Zhai, that is the real movement

We chinese say, the tree that is big catches alot of wind. This is what I think of the rumours and stories of Yip man. In the latest Yip Man Movie, where in china, they are buzzing about, a scene says, Chinese lost of face is a No-No. Even if what is said is true, chinese loss of face is a No-No.

So I hope this will help those who are seeking to rubbish the name of Yip Man, now see there is another side of the coin, not found on youtube or english language. There is nothing missing from Yip Man Lineage. He did seek to simplify the art(as said by Master Yip Chun), for mass teaching maybe or maybe he wanted to follow in his Sigung’s footsteps, Leung Jan, to present the essense of Wingchun
I have realised that most concepts are not repeated in Yip Man forms- hence only those loyal will learn everything, e.g chou dai choi in kulo, or taap choi in yahu- it is presented in Wooden Dummy. I just didnt know the name it was called in other lineages.

Here are my sharings on my ongoing project into Mainland China’s Martial Arts. Of course we tend to believe who and what we want to believe
So I humbly present my small research project as a tribute to Legendary Yip Man.

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There was a famous letter written by Yuen Jo-Tong and published in New Martial Hero in HK in the 70s. It tried to set the record straight about Yuen Kay-San and Sum Nung’s background.

It quoted material on Fok Bo-Chuen and Fung Siu-Ching from the Fatshan archives, and mentioned some of the early training at Tin Hoi restaurant. Most interestingly, it finished up saying Kwok Fu, who was also around at the time, could corroborate Sum Nung’s account of events, and that Yuen Jo-Tong and Sum Nung would be more than happy to take anyone and go see Kwok Fu together.

Since almost everyone has passed away now, it’s likely that kind of opportunity will never be again – and stories will again begin to spin towards marketing :frowning:

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Reputation is the only real criteria of a Master so Yip Man stands on that, where, the more famous did not have it or they tried to buy it but they could not!
Even if Yip Man was terrible or didn’t learn much or he was "too simple’ or he was not anointed, appointed etc., his reputation and skill stands as it is because he taught what he promised or he had more satisfied students who lived the lineage as opposed to just basking in the lineage of the past masters!

I passed through HK in the mid 80’s and the Yip Man name was well known.
It is bogus to say that

However some spread negative stories like, Yip man didnt learn everything,
when the reality is that someone who didn’t learn anything (i.e. wing chun) can readily defeat most practitioners of the same style, possess integrity and still be considered possessing no skill, according to his detractors. It seems that the non student exceeded the masters! Seems like sour grapes to me. Isn’t there a famous saying alluding to the fact that that is the goal of the student, to wit, to exceed the skill of the master!

One of my taijiquan teachers studied a while with Yap Man and even produced a book about 40 years ago with him, and according to him (as I remember) Yip Man was forthcoming with all studnets and exhorted them to study and practice hard.
No secrets, no BS and no kowtow!

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Yip Man’s been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan’s been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the “truth” about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one’s teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one’s own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man’s own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of “I can take the ‘old man’”. Instead one hears “the ‘old man’ had a heavy punch”. This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man’s students (aka “grandmasters”) is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.

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dfl

Good post. Sifting old tea leaves doesn’t improve one’s wing chun or point to further development of the art.

Searching for or keeping a good teacher plus analysis practice and experience surely is a better way..

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=dfl;912109]Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.[/QUOTE]

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down

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clam 61

[QUOTE=clam61;912145]maybe he would not have been able to be taken down[/QUOTE]

Very likely not IMO… specially in his fighting days. But best not to extend the thread on that point.
.. nothing gained by that line of discussion- and it wasn’t dfl’s central point anyway.
Those of his students like Ho Kam Ming who spent quality time in developing structural strength and dynamics are also likely to be hard to take down-for a variety of reasons including structure,
footwork, stance/dynamics and appropriate timing… but I don’t care to argue that point.
Nothing gained. Ip Man is gone.

joy chaudhuri

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[QUOTE=dfl;912109]Yip Man’s been dead for over 35 years, and Yuen Kay Shan’s been dead for over 50. We are never going to get the “truth” about what happened between them. What we do get is a lot of claims on websites, some of which provide such amazing levels of detail (and flowery prose which one is only able to encounter in martial arts novels) which even the participants themselves may be hard pressed to supply.
It would be more fruitful to pursue what kind of kung fu a nearly penniless, frail, old man possessed, which blossomed into one of the most popular Chinese martial arts in the world. One honors one’s teachers by trying to achieve to the utmost within one’s own abilities what those teachers taught, not by giving lip service and showing up at the gravesite of famous people for photo ops.
By all accounts from Yip Man’s own students, his abilities were formidable. I have not heard of one single account in decades of reading, that one of his students claim to have bested his teacher, or any claims of “I can take the ‘old man’”. Instead one hears “the ‘old man’ had a heavy punch”. This is unlikely to be modesty or deference to the teacher because among Yip Man’s students (aka “grandmasters”) is no lack of egos. So why is that the case? This man was close to 60 when he started teaching in Hong Kong. His pictures suggest he was never muscular like the actor who portrayed him in the recent movie. I doubt he could qualify for any Olympic event, let alone win one. So how could a frail old man, non-athletic type with no upper body strength be able to convince younger, stronger, heavier, faster, athletic types to become his students and stay loyal for decades? Was he a cult leader? Did he come up with some novel theory of the universe which so mesmerized his followers? Were these students (aka grandmasters) idiots? Or did he just reach a level in an art supposedly created by a small, weak, female such that even without muscles, he was able to overcome bigger, stronger, faster opponents? If the latter, how did he do it?
Can you, using your own Wing Chun, do that? If you can, congratulations. If not, why not?
Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie. And if he ever were in such a situation, he would be dead meat, or deserved to be.[/QUOTE]

Great post, thats why I seeked mainland china to find the evidence of Leung Bik’s existence- and found it written on their goverment websites in Kulo Heshan. From there we can try to understand what Master Hawkins Cheung, Chu Shong Tin, Bruce Lee, Kenneth Chung, Leung Sheung, Peter Yang, Yip Chun said about Yip Man’s art- that it was soft and internal- to be sung, relaxed and use just enough energy. To use Nim Tao. To have the structure of head/spine held vertically by the baihui, pelvic tilt, chest soft, back round, elbows in pointing down.
What did Leung Bik teach Ip Man that was different from Chan Wah Shun lineage, Ng Chung So and Chan Yu Ming? How do we cultivate this art?
That will lay foundations for what his art should be- to always strive to improve.

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Hello,

Great post, thats why I seeked mainland china to find the evidence of Leung Bik’s existence- and found it written on their goverment websites in Kulo Heshan.

Leung Bik- In China, Leung Bik is a real person, there is historical record that he existed, the strongest evidence from Heshan Kulo Goverment(and these guys can detail anyone’s life up the the yellow emperor and beyond). In a series of articles Kulo Master Leung who teaches the 22 san sik, mentions Leung Bik.

Be careful with the info you find in Kulo “public” archives. Most of what is written about other lineages was what they heard and not first hand knowledge. Many of the Kulo government officials are “Lao’s”. The Lao’s are the “second” biggest clan in Kulo. Fung family being the largest and gatekeepers. The Lao’s learned their WC from the Fung’s. Most of them trained under my Sigung, Fung Ju, when he returned to Hoksan.

Also, the 22 Point methods was developed by FUNG LIM (wong wah sam student) and not Master Leung Jan. Fung Lim taught it to his son in law who passed the art on to others. Fung Lim’s son, Fung Sang, and family practice the Pin Sun 12 Fists art.

Caveat Emptor!

Hope this helps!

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Be careful with ALL of this…since it seems that nobody’s word can be trusted fully when it comes to Chinese martial arts history.

The only thing that CAN be trusted about Chinese martial arts in general and wing chun in particular is what you SEE and DO firsthand.

Does it work?
Is it fight-efficient?
What fighting answers does it have?
What answers is it missing?

Etc…………

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The best any teacher can do is point the way or try to put you on the right path, YOUR path, in that regard, it really isn’t about HOW much a teacher knows but how well he can help you find your path.

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UltimateWC,
Nice points, agreed…

Interesting point Jim, I didnt know that about the Laos versus the Fungs.

I was sent this by a practitioner in Kulo village, is this the full syllables of Kulo?

But he claims this is another branch in Kulo

36

This is interesting because he states he has 12 1/2 san sik, Kulo Chum Kil 36 Fatt, Kulo Bil Jee and the fourth set which is not taught openly, Pien Sang Wingchun.

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Hello,

E-mail me and we can chat more!

The Fung’s & Lao’s are related and all friends.

:slight_smile:

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I know this is off-topic, but I can’t get my browser to read Chinese. Most of the characters do show up, but then on others there are little squares with four numbers in them.

Could anyone translate Shadow_warrior8’s text? My Chinese is paltry at best. THanks in advance!

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what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

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Hopefully a Short comment on Leung Bik

[QUOTE=clam61;912476]what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?[/QUOTE]

In many things specially internet kung fu discussions there can be multiple opinions on practically any subject. From what you have said in the past and what you seem to be learning the issue may not be important and in a way if one learns good wing chun it doesn’t matter-unless one picks up the gosh awful marshland subject of wing chun history.
Ip man’s wing chun in some ways is quite unique. He said , told his sons and some of his close students that he learned from Leung Bik when IM went to HK the first time. He didnt say that ona sign in front of his school and didn’t take out an ad to that effect to the best of my knowledge and non one that I know of questioned him on that when IM was alive.Per the tradition of that time he listed his first teacher as his sifu, but he learned from others.
But some folks are skeptical. You can have any take on wing chun history that you want- it comes in 57 flavors. Shoot even now there are mysteries about who learned what from whom and for how long. You takes your pick in the history cafeteria.

joy chaudhuri

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Of course Yip Man has never rolled on the floor in the octagon with a Gracie.

Rubbish. He’s rolled with Carlos Snr, Rolls and Carlson in the Big Octagon In The Sky. Right now he’s cornering WSL in his match with the recently arrived Helio.

maybe he would not have been able to be taken down

Good point. Takedowns and submissions are much more difficult when your opponent consists entirely of ectoplasm. OTOH, chain punching doesn’t work all that well either.

No offence meant to the Gracies. Some of this conjecture, OTOH, deserves nothing but ridicule.

what is the importance of leung bik and why is there so much mystery in his existence?

He’s a pivotal figure in the “histories” of many YM lineages, as the elder son of Leung Jan. Willam Cheung’s history, as just one example, loses (a lot more) credibility if it can be proved he did not exist.

However evidince for his existence is highly tenuous … though the OP appears to have found osmething concrete in that regard.

As Joy said, WC history is a smorgasbord, and you and many (most?) others seem to have picked the bits that best fit the way they’d like things to be.

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Yip Man was great, and he was human. Chinese say Yin Shui Si Yuan - “drinking water, think of the source”. He is honored for his teachings.

Personally, I think it is important we investigate what other students of Yip Man taught and discuss them. They are all part of a puzzle.

Whether or not he learned from Leung Bik is irrelevent; he learned and taught and we have what he passed down. That is enough.

Yuen Kay Shan was also great. I honor him as a great contributor and preserver of WCK. Too little is known about him here. Sum Nung did a great job in his time teaching and preserving the art in China.

Yiu Choi, who studied with Yuen Chai Wan and later Ng Jung So, can give us a missing link and glimpse of what was passed down to present, but his system has its unique features.

All of our ancestors, we can respect.

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The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path. Masters like 90 years old Gwok Fu lived to tell their tales and his own.

But its all just for bedtime stories, something to fall asleep to after a hard day of wingchun training.

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[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;913264]The main reason I posted the thread on Yip Man, Leung Bik, was that this information was not available to the west, and its all still in chinese. Only for those who really want to see the other side of the coin will bother to translate it.

I also wanted to show, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi and Yip Man were really legends we can look up to in our own path.[/QUOTE]

Interesting point about people translating ‘who want to see the other side of the coin’. This is happening more and more these days. Westerners trying to learn the dialect of their teacher/s.

Its been a while since I read any mention of Yiu Choi. The best source of info on Yiu Choi in the UK is Sifu Wai Po Tang http://www.martialartinstitute.com/ where he also mentions Yiu Kil (?)

Whatever, or wherever you come from, people can only really learn to appreciate what they have if we all learn how to share! Unfortunately for most westerners (non-chinese readers) we still have a very long way to go, as we may never fully understand what was taught if we can’t understand the language that was used to teach.

[QUOTE=chusauli;913264]All of our ancestors, we can respect.[/QUOTE]

I would hope so Chu Sifu.

Not to sound like the Orange mobile ad, but we are all part of everyone as everyone is part of us.

For anyone who has never seen this clip, it’s an entire unedited piece of Ip Man performing the 108 MYJ. I only ever saw this once during the opening of the Tong in Foshan.

Respect aside, how did this end up on Youtube?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NjqL9MdLj0k