Profound respect for Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun, re: Yuen Kay San

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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Classy and hopefully it’ll receive proper coverage in the rest of the world, in all languages. Sad it couldn’t happen before Sum Nung passed away though:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ash3CY-9Ovo

>Wing Chun master Si Kwok Lam and Yip Chun co-produced movie “Yip man”, who had apologized 6 times and “served Tea” to Yuen Kay San’s grandson(left in picture, wearing glasses) for misrepresenting and disrespectful to the Lengendary death dual champion during 1920-1950s during a news conference in China, Mr. Si and Yip admitted in front of documents and witness that Yuen Kay San represented Wing Chun family and answer all the public death duals in Foshan in those years, he is senior to Yipman in the Wing Chun family tree.

>Mr. Xi Kwok Lam (Yip Man’s son’s student and movie producer of the Ip Man 3) apologized and served tea to Yuen Jo Tong for misreprensenting his grandfather Yuen Kay San’s reputation and status in Wing Chun history. (In the movie, Yuen Kay San was portrayed as Yip Man’s younger Kung Fu brother, not as skillfull as Yipman)[9].

>Three Heroes of Wing Chun

>Yao Wing Ken (Yoa Choy’s grandson) explains that, "in the old days of Foshan, his grandfather Yao Choy, Yip Man and Yuen Kay San were called the “Three Heroes of Wing Chun” and often mentioned together. Yuen Kay San’s disciple Leung Jan Sing also provided an ancestral document indicating that Yuen Kay San studied with Feng Shui Ching, while Yipman and others studied under Yuen. This record was passed down in the 70’s of last century. Although Yip Man is not necessarily Yuen’s official student, in the order of seniority on the family tree, Yuen Kay San ranked at the first level, with Yip Man being last. It would be normal for Yip Man to ask Yuen Kay San for instruction.
Below is the original Chinese quoted from the original article in the Dayoo Newspaper of Guangzhou:

“” “” “70

^ " (Xi Kwok Lam serves tea to Yuen Jo Tong)“. Yang Sing National Newspaper (China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-16.
^ " (Restore History)”. Dayoo Newspaper (Guangzhou, China). 2010. Retrieved 2010-07-18.

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[QUOTE=reneritchie;1031968]Classy and hopefully it’ll receive proper coverage in the rest of the world, in all languages. Sad it couldn’t happen before Sum Nung passed away though:
[/QUOTE]

Yes, it is classy, but I think it will get very little if any coverage, and will be – like most genuine and accurate historical facts about WCK – disregarded by most (like it has been here).

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its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the “once upon a time in china” movies came out, did wong fei hong’s students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the “3 heroes of wing chun” title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san’s grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee’s fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different

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This is the entire article

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11:45

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12:30

———“‘’”“”“”

12:40

“”44“”“”“”“”“”

13:00

“”“”“‘’”“”“”“”“”

14:00

“”

“‘’”“”

“”“‘’”“”

http://news.qq.com/a/20100715/001464.htm

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This is the second article in entirely
http://culture.china.com.cn/lishi/2010-07/08/content_20450101.htm

The old pictures of Master Yuen and Master Yiu Choi were fantastic
Description of Master Yiu

Description of Master Yuen

This tea offering was a gracious gesture, because the 3 men were heros and had good relations.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;1032227]its important to know though. in the movie they made yuen kay san look like sh!t
its not about putting yip man down, its about giving yuen kay san his proper respect

in the KF museum in foshan (like a hall of fame), sum nung and yuen kay san are there, based on their accomplishments. yip man is not. yip man only became famous after bruce lee became famous. not even people like wong fei hong were admitted. only after the “once upon a time in china” movies came out, did wong fei hong’s students petition for him to be there

yuen kay san would fight these matches and tell the historian au sui jee to give credit to leung jan because he did not want to attract attention to himself and his family. as a result, leung jan gained a lot of notoriety.

the “3 heroes of wing chun” title did not exist at the time yuen kay san was alive. this came later and yuen kay san’s grandson actually accepted it because he wanted to ride some of bruce lee’s fame too.

in guangdong the perspective of WC is very different[/QUOTE]

Yes the producers did, that was not good. Yuen Kay san and Yiu Choi were heros on their own

Thats why the chinese goverment build Ip Man Tong for Ip Man. Ip man was famous with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San, and that was before Bruce Lee. Hence the stories of Ip Man in Fatshan and his exploits. If Yuen Jo Tong only accepted it later because of Bruce Lee fame, then so did Yiu Family?

Waiting to see historical documents, a website in chinese- there are heaps about wingchun in china, or even an interview from the Yuen Family or Yiu Choi family, Fung Family or even Ip man Fatshan students say this

Yuen Jo Tong? seems like an honourable man. He is doing a great job defending his grandfathers name who everyone in guangzhou already knew. Not sure about this. Again, same criteria as above I found the 3 heros tag on many articles and it was supposed to reference to when they were still young in guangzhou, before Ip Man left

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It’s not just the movie. It’s 60 years of lying about Wing Chun Kuen history.

What was said in Hong Kong and the West was not what happened, and not what the same people said when they went back to Foshan and Guangzhou.

The movie was probably just the catalyst to start making things right.

This is martial arts. No one needs to lie about history; the ultimate proof is always and only if a sifu can make a student better.

To have Yuen Kay-San and his achievements displaced, demeaned, and disrespected for 60 years. It was an attempt to deny Yuen Kay-San his legacy and practitioners all over the world his heritage. It was a travesty that hopefully this begins to set right.

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn’t received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s – I’d ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

Vindication, I imagine.

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This is great news!

Yuen Kay Shan was never Ng Jung So’s student, and is higher in the genealogy than Yip Man.

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[QUOTE=chusauli;1032348]This is great news!

Yuen Kay Shan was never Ng Jung So’s student, and is higher in the genealogy than Yip Man.[/QUOTE]
I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was “The” Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1032353]I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was “The” Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.[/QUOTE]

That’s quite true; He even knew that Chan Wah Shun’s son was Chan Wah Shun’s inheritor, not even Ng Jung So.

So it would not be where Yip Man ever claims he was the “Jeung Mun Yan” (Gatekeeper of WCK). He could only claim head of his own tradition.

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[QUOTE=reneritchie;1032306]Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn’t received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s – I’d ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.[/QUOTE]

It’s very interesting to see this sort of family issue being dealt with so publically. It makes me quite uncomfortable to be honest, as I too come from a family that has been very misunderstood by the general Wing Chun community.

I can’t tell you how it made me feel to actually support the Ip Man Tong opening by flying all the way to Foshan only to see absolutely no record of Lee Shing at all. :rolleyes: Considering he was the only European representative of Ip Man in the sixties, I found it very strange indeed. His contribution was literally side-lined and I felt my heart sink for my own Sifu, as he knows the Ip Family quite well.

It was explained back in 1997 by Ip Chun to my Sifu, and pretty much sounds like the same issue. Lee Shing was his own man. His way of Wing Chun was different to Ip Man and Ip Chun felt that this was a good enough reason for us to ‘take care of ourselves’.

So, I didn’t hold any bad feelings at all until I went to Foshan, and then I saw the movies too and Lee Shings name was never even mentioned! :mad: I can’t imagine how I would feel if the movie portrayed him in a bad way, but it is just a movie!!

Look at what happened to ‘Dragon - the Bruce Lee Story’ :eek:

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[QUOTE=reneritchie;1032306]It’s not just the movie. It’s 60 years of lying about Wing Chun Kuen history.

What was said in Hong Kong and the West was not what happened, and not what the same people said when they went back to Foshan and Guangzhou.

The movie was probably just the catalyst to start making things right.

This is martial arts. No one needs to lie about history; the ultimate proof is always and only if a sifu can make a student better.

To have Yuen Kay-San and his achievements displaced, demeaned, and disrespected for 60 years. It was an attempt to deny Yuen Kay-San his legacy and practitioners all over the world his heritage. It was a travesty that hopefully this begins to set right.

Every branch has had their controversy, every student has likely felt their teacher hasn’t received some form of credit or another over the years.

To have had that systematically written in books and articles everywhere outside mainland China since the 1950s – I’d ask everyone here to try and imagine what that is like, and then imagine how it must feel to the Yuen family now.

Vindication, I imagine.[/QUOTE]

Rene, all lineages have their lies like you said. Today even Ip Man Lineage students who have benefited from him tell lies to justify their story.

Yuen Kay San was a great man, so was Yiu Choi

Description of Master Yiu

Description of Master Yuen

I see in china Master Yuen was, still is held in high esteem. Dont see it that he was lied about for 60 years. Ip Man on the other hand, many lineages spin lies about him and his abilities. Now that is a real shame. Wingchun is known around the world because of him, no matter whether anyone wants to agree or like it.

This is the video proper of Yuen family and Yiu Family voiceing their displeasure about the movie with the actual interviews.
http://v.youku.com/v_show/id_XMTg3MDY2NTky.html

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well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen’s father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man’s dad was an opium boat captain.

[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;1032261]Yes the producers did, that was not good. Yuen Kay san and Yiu Choi were heros on their own

Thats why the chinese goverment build Ip Man Tong for Ip Man. Ip man was famous with Yiu Choi and Yuen Kay San, and that was before Bruce Lee. Hence the stories of Ip Man in Fatshan and his exploits. If Yuen Jo Tong only accepted it later because of Bruce Lee fame, then so did Yiu Family?

Waiting to see historical documents, a website in chinese- there are heaps about wingchun in china, or even an interview from the Yuen Family or Yiu Choi family, Fung Family or even Ip man Fatshan students say this

Yuen Jo Tong? seems like an honourable man. He is doing a great job defending his grandfathers name who everyone in guangzhou already knew. Not sure about this. Again, same criteria as above I found the 3 heros tag on many articles and it was supposed to reference to when they were still young in guangzhou, before Ip Man left[/QUOTE]

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.

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[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1032353]I once heard that Yip Man himself never said he was “The” Grandmaster of WC. He obviously recognized his seniors.[/QUOTE]

He never said he was grandmaster. From what we know from Sigung Ip Ching and Sifu Samuel Kwok, he was a humble man, and he seldom talk about wingchun outside of class even to his sons. Sigung Ip Ching would know, he lived with him in the last 10 years of his life.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;1032359]well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen’s father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man’s dad was an opium boat captain.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuens. Yip Mans father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Mans grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuens father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasnt happy doing this as Yip was Ngs student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His fathers urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.[/QUOTE]

Since I have a part in the website years back and realise the source and who was writing it up. I reserve my comments to say, some of those “truths” need be updated

There are clear videos and interviews of Kwok fu and lun gai as fighters and “invincible” in fatshan, they have honoured Ip Man for years there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OH1PR7uDQ

Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man’s house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.
Kwok fu’s son is pretty famous too in Fatshan.

A good e.g on that site, Yiu Choi taught Ip Man, Yiu family have publicly said it was not so.

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[QUOTE=Pacman;1032359]well being a legend or not a legend is subjective.

but just ask yourself when ip man tong was built (2002). there are no stories of ip man in fatsan, except for the ones created by the movie in which it is acknowledged as fiction

actually, ip man had went to japan to study for a while, so he knew a little japanese. it was because of this that he was hired by the japanese invaders to translate for them.

so ip man was more like the cop in the first movie than the ip man in the first movie.

the richest man in fatsan who lazily trains KF? That sounds more like yuen kay san. yuen’s father owned the entire firework industry in fatsan. he never worked a day in his life. all he did was practice KF. his father paid huge sums of gold and silver to fung siu ching for training

ip man’s dad was an opium boat captain.

http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan

Yuen Kay accepted a very limited number of students and only had one disciple, Sum Num. Yip Man (The man that brought Wing Chun to Hong Kong in 1949 and first taught the system to the public) and his family, were neighbors of the Yuen’s. Yip Man’s father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming. Yip Man’s grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuen’s father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasn’t happy doing this as Yip was Ng’s student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His father’s urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them. Yuen Kay also taught his Friend Wong Jing, who would later pass his art down to his son Mai Gai Wong.[/QUOTE]

Hence why the Yip Man And Yuen Kay Shan systems both teach the Luk Sao/Poon Sao exercise, and other branches of WCK probably adopted the exercise.

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>Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man’s house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.

I didn’t watch the video interview, but back in the 1970s there were some statements made that greatly misrepresented what went on during that training. They basically said Yip Man taught Yuen Kay-San Chi Sao.

Yuen Jo-Tong sent a letter to New Martial Hero, along with similar documents and statements, to dispel those rumors. Sum Nung, who was the one training Chi Sao with Yip Man and Yip Man’s early students, offered to take Mok Poi-On and any other reporters who wanted to accompany him to go visit Kwok Fu, so they could hear the proper story in Kwok Fu’s own words.

The stories abruptly ended at that point.

Suffice it to say, the real version didn’t receive a lot of coverage in the west either :frowning:

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you have to take into evidence sources that are not biased. people from YM lineage are of course going to talk up YM. Same goes for YKS. So you have to take into account unbiased sources like those documents, what is in the fatsan KF museum etc.

where are the records of YM fights? YKS was documented to have beaten the “King of the Staff” from Shaanxi and to have beaten Wong Fei Hong and others.

earlier we were talking about lies. if YM was humble then thats great, the problem is that people in his lineage distort the history. like I said before, the “three heroes of wing chun” is in itself a modern thing and a joke. yuen kay san’s grandson goes along with it for political reasons. it would be equivalent to years from now that AC Green and Magic Johnson were at the same skill level and accomplishment level.

why would yip chun travel to china three times to beg sum nung to teach him when his own father was alive?!

the truth is a lot of people you hear about learned a little WC from sum nung over the years. thankfully sum nung was fearful of them stealing his WC and not giving his KF family credit, telling people it is all their own so he taught them very little and only showed them his WC at a superficial level or left everything incomplete at first.

this is what happened with mickey wong and leung ting and others, and he was right. they never gave credit to sum nung for influencing their WC at any level. leung ting even talked down to sum nung in his book.

this is why sum nung denied yip chun as a student. he was fearful of all the credit being given to yip man and he was probably right that would have happened.

[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;1032362]Since I have a part in the website years back and realise the source and who was writing it up. I reserve my comments to say, some of those “truths” need be updated

There are clear videos and interviews of Kwok fu and lun gai as fighters and “invincible” in fatshan, they have honoured Ip Man for years there.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=x-OH1PR7uDQ

Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man’s house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.
Kwok fu’s son is pretty famous too in Fatshan.

A good e.g on that site, Yiu Choi taught Ip Man, Yiu family have publicly said it was not so.[/QUOTE]

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this is true. yuen kay san then told sum nung to kick yip man’s ass for saying BS. yip man denied any wrong doing, blaming his students for spreading the rumors. sum nung didn’t really want to fight yip man, as they were friendly acquaintances, but he had to follow his teacher’s request.

so sum nung went to challenge yip man a few times in hong kong. finally yip man accepted in a private match. yip man tried his famous pak sau technique. that failed and sum nung defeated him quickly.

of course when asked about this sum nung would not want yip man to lose face so he would not talk about it publicly.

[QUOTE=reneritchie;1032384]>Kwok fu clearly said Yuen Kay San would come to Ip Man’s house and garden when they were training. I would not say anymore of what he said here. But its in his video interview.

I didn’t watch the video interview, but back in the 1970s there were some statements made that greatly misrepresented what went on during that training. They basically said Yip Man taught Yuen Kay-San Chi Sao.

Yuen Jo-Tong sent a letter to New Martial Hero, along with similar documents and statements, to dispel those rumors. Sum Nung, who was the one training Chi Sao with Yip Man and Yip Man’s early students, offered to take Mok Poi-On and any other reporters who wanted to accompany him to go visit Kwok Fu, so they could hear the proper story in Kwok Fu’s own words.

The stories abruptly ended at that point.

Suffice it to say, the real version didn’t receive a lot of coverage in the west either :([/QUOTE]

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[QUOTE=Pacman;1032387]this is true. yuen kay san then told sum nung to kick yip man’s ass for saying BS. yip man denied any wrong doing, blaming his students for spreading the rumors. sum nung didn’t really want to fight yip man, as they were friendly acquaintances, but he had to follow his teacher’s request.

so sum nung went to challenge yip man a few times in hong kong. finally yip man accepted in a private match. yip man tried his famous pak sau technique. that failed and sum nung defeated him quickly.

of course when asked about this sum nung would not want yip man to lose face so he would not talk about it publicly.[/QUOTE]

Sum and Yip never had any challenge match.