wow people just make any crap up and call it history.
Sounds like a bunch of spitfull little b1tches upset because there isn’t a YKS movie.
Pacman,
Those stories aren’t what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.
[QUOTE=reneritchie;1032438]Pacman,
Those stories aren’t what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.[/QUOTE]
like i said. public vs private. indoor student vs public student.
LOL. No.
Unfortunately, that’s part of the problem. Stories that get out of control. They infect every branch 
[QUOTE=reneritchie;1032471]LOL. No.
Unfortunately, that’s part of the problem. Stories that get out of control. They infect every branch :([/QUOTE]
well this one is not out of control. i admit i did not talk to sum nung about this one, but with his direct student.
its a matter of students of sum, yuen versus ip
Its all BS to me, all stories after they died and telling all kinds of tales
heard them all, yuen taught ip, sum kicked ip, putting ip man down, chan wah shun blackmailed leung jan was taught wrong footwork, now ip descendants do a movie, the official descendants have come back to merely say this movie does not honour their ancestors- THATS ALL THEY SAID.
Sum definately did not teach ip chun etc…Yuen Kay San did teach young Ip Chun Sil Lim Tao and he did say so.
Show me in writing or in video interview any of the sifus mentioned they said so, or their descendants said so, otherwise its just all nonsense and politics
The 3 men were heros, recognised and great friends. You think they argued about who was better like now by their so called followers?
Why cant people honour their friendships and brotherhood like they did.
And moving forward what does it mean? if Yuen had better skills than Ip? More authentic? Or Ip was better than Yuen? Or Sum Beat Ip? So what?
What do we have to do? Do the clans have to chi sao and fight it out? So now we have rumours of Yuen, Sum beating Ip. Do we have to go to fatshan and now challenge and redeem Ip family name? All this talk, its your wingchun, what you put in is what you get.
Indoor, outdoor, indoor who is lazy can be the worst martial artist in the world, outdoor through his hard work and a open mind can come to a higher level.
Thats why its called kung fu.
[QUOTE=reneritchie;1032438]Pacman,
Those stories aren’t what I heard from Sum Nung. They sound like mashups and highly dramatized versions. Sum Nung took pains to be polite and respectful of the WCK family.[/QUOTE]
I have spent years looking the way Sum Nung, Yuen Kay San, Yiu Choi were presented in china, they were always known as people of great mo dak.
Pacmen your stories without backup besides official verification offend the Ip family, his students and Ip Chun- who you claimed went to Guangzhou to beg Sum Nung 3 times to accept him even though Ip Man was alive. I will ask Sigung Ip Chun since he can verify this.
If you see what a movie means to Yuen and Yiu Descendants and having to apologise for making ancestors looks bad, spinning these things without proof is offensive to us, as Ip Man descendants.
renee
i appreciate your input on the YKS issue, and i will drop debate over this story (because its implications are obvious even without it), but just ask yourself about your sources.
you were not close to sum nung as an indoor student, as someone who had the student/teacher relationship which traditionally is like a father/son relationship. you spoke to him as a grandstudent. also when you spoke to him, did he know you were writing a book? that could have influenced him being more reserved and choosing his words carefully.
if it doesnt matter then thats great. you should have no problem discussing what is reality without getting upset. for the record im not trying to state who is better, im just stating facts as i was told. those facts coincide with some evidence. you can choose to believe or not.
i did not say sum nung taught yip man. yuen kay san taught yip man sticky hands for a few months briefly. yip man did not know sticky hands before this. all he really knew was how to use the chung choi (chain punch). this is probably why yip man’s understanding of sticky hands is superficial, just skin deep at best. this is probably why there is so much confusion as to what sticky hands is. some say its just a drill just an excercise most likely because they cannot make it work in a real situation.
recently i read about yuen kay san in wingchunpedia (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan)
in the last paragraph it talks about yuen kay san teaching yip man briefly when yip’s house was burned down and yips grandfather being an opium boat captain. these details i had not heard of. i had only been told about yuen teaching yip a little sticky hands.
Yip Mans father was a fellow merchant of Yuen Chong Ming [Yuen Kay San’s father]. Yip Mans grandfather had been an opium boat captain and some locals took exception to him gaining wealth in that fashion so burnt down the Yip estate. Yuens father took the Yip clan in and housed them in his estate for a time. During this time Yuen Chong Ming asked Yuen to teach young Yip Man some Chi Sau as Young Yip had not learnt this from his quasi teacher, Ng Chung So. Yuen wasnt happy doing this as Yip was Ngs student and did different Wing Chun. However, at His fathers urging, Yuen did teach Yip a little chi sau. Yip was asked not to show this to his elder gwoon brothers but later did so, defeating them.
[QUOTE=Shadow_warrior8;1032485]its a matter of students of sum, yuen versus ip
Its all BS to me, all stories after they died and telling all kinds of tales
heard them all, yuen taught ip, sum kicked ip, putting ip man down, chan wah shun blackmailed leung jan was taught wrong footwork, now ip descendants do a movie, the official descendants have come back to merely say this movie does not honour their ancestors- THATS ALL THEY SAID.
Sum definately did not teach ip chun etc…Yuen Kay San did teach young Ip Chun Sil Lim Tao and he did say so.
Show me in writing or in video interview any of the sifus mentioned they said so, or their descendants said so, otherwise its just all nonsense and politics
The 3 men were heros, recognised and great friends. You think they argued about who was better like now by their so called followers?
Why cant people honour their friendships and brotherhood like they did.
And moving forward what does it mean? if Yuen had better skills than Ip? More authentic? Or Ip was better than Yuen? Or Sum Beat Ip? So what?
What do we have to do? Do the clans have to chi sao and fight it out? So now we have rumours of Yuen, Sum beating Ip. Do we have to go to fatshan and now challenge and redeem Ip family name? All this talk, its your wingchun, what you put in is what you get.
Indoor, outdoor, indoor who is lazy can be the worst martial artist in the world, outdoor through his hard work and a open mind can come to a higher level.
Thats why its called kung fu.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032579]if it doesnt matter then thats great. you should have no problem discussing what is reality without getting upset. for the record im not trying to state who is better, im just stating facts as i was told. those facts coincide with some evidence. you can choose to believe or not.
i did not say sum nung taught yip man. yuen kay san taught yip man sticky hands for a few months briefly. yip man did not know sticky hands before this. all he really knew was how to use the chung choi (chain punch). this is probably why yip man’s understanding of sticky hands is superficial, just skin deep at best. this is probably why there is so much confusion as to what sticky hands is. some say its just a drill just an excercise most likely because they cannot make it work in a real situation.
recently i read about yuen kay san in wingchunpedia (http://www.wingchunpedia.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php?n=WCP.YuenKayShan)
in the last paragraph it talks about yuen kay san teaching yip man briefly when yip’s house was burned down and yips grandfather being an opium boat captain. these details i had not heard of. i had only been told about yuen teaching yip a little sticky hands.[/QUOTE]
Are you saying that Yip Man system Sticking Hands is superficial when compared to Yuen Kay Shan WCK Sticking Hands? Or are you saying that when Yip Man went to learn Sticking Hands from YKS, his knowledge was superficial?
[QUOTE=chusauli;1032612]Are you saying that Yip Man system Sticking Hands is superficial when compared to Yuen Kay Shan WCK Sticking Hands? Or are you saying that when Yip Man went to learn Sticking Hands from YKS, his knowledge was superficial?[/QUOTE]
im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an ‘old school’ type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.
those are the facts that i know.
from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.
to debate whether sticky hands is practical or not is not my intention, but the difference in views of what sticky hands is between the YKS and YM lineage is evidence that YM did not absorb everything YKS knew about chi sau. combine that with the limited time to learn and it fits together.
it might also explain why we see the chung choi as the go to move in YM wing chun and why people on this forum such as sanjuro ronin think WC is all about charging like a rhino into the “close range” with the chung choi
speculating YM had only really mastered the Chung Choi really has no sense of what WCK is.
It is as usual, people take side and create lots of HIS-STORY and the HIS-STORY actually distorted on what really happen.
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032688]im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an ‘old school’ type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.
those are the facts that i know.
from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.
to debate whether sticky hands is practical or not is not my intention, but the difference in views of what sticky hands is between the YKS and YM lineage is evidence that YM did not absorb everything YKS knew about chi sau. combine that with the limited time to learn and it fits together.
it might also explain why we see the chung choi as the go to move in YM wing chun and why people on this forum such as sanjuro ronin think WC is all about charging like a rhino into the “close range” with the chung choi[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032688]
those are the facts that i know.
[/QUOTE]
Do you see what I mean, Rene? Idiots. People love their stories. And they always involve how “we” are so much better than “them.”
Facts and WC?
BBBWWWAAHHHHH !!!
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032688]
from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.
[/QUOTE]
Chong Chui alone is not WCK.
Go for center line is not WCK but White Crane of Fujian.
Using both arms together is not WCK but Southern ShaoLin and lots of other arts.
Walking in Angle is not WCK.
Sticky hands is actually practice, a second nature, and a uniqueness of WCner who knows WCK.
Stick is not really stick but a combination of Center structure damaging, sealing, and continuous momentum management in the same time. Without this it is not WCK.
Lots of YM’s students and grand students among with YKS’s line from SN himself, do these although some dont.
From YM’s line, Range from WSL, Hawkin, Gary Lam, Robert Chu…do these, check into the signature.
BTW:
I dont do Poon Sau type of sticky hand drill, but I still do the above WCK uniqueness. That doesnt mean I dont know WCK, it just mean I am from different lineage.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1032707]Do you see what I mean, Rene? Idiots. People love their stories. And they always involve how “we” are so much better than “them.”[/QUOTE]
as usual you don’t read other people’s posts and just blabber on.
i specifically said i am not arguing who is better. i am just stating what i have learned.
you can state the history you have learned, i can state the history i have learned. in the end neither of us have any evidence to prove any claim, but just like Rene’s example with the incident in the 70s he trusts his sources and I trust mine.
funny that no one objected to Rene’s story, but as soon as you say something politically incorrect everyone calls you crazy. this inconsistency is obviously caused by an emotional factor
[QUOTE=Hendrik;1032705]speculating YM had only really mastered the Chung Choi really has no sense of what WCK is.
It is as usual, people take side and create lots of HIS-STORY and the HIS-STORY actually distorted on what really happen.[/QUOTE]
ok but ask yourself this, why do you automatically think you know what actually happened more than i do? if you acknowledge people make things up (which I totally agree), why is what you have learned immune from being made up?
the answer is, “its not”, and thats my point.
if people want evidence of things then look at the historical documents about yuen kay san and sum nung’s accomplishments (fight records and writings about them that were made at the time they were alive). go to the KF hall of fame museum in Fatsan and check it out for yourself. Ask yourself why yiu choi and yip man are not there despite being part of the “3 heroes of wing chun”
try to find records of yip man’s fight record. his signature for participating in the death duel tournaments. you will not find it
this is not
ok but ask yourself this, why do you automatically think you know what actually happened more than i do? if you acknowledge people make things up (which I totally agree), why is what you have learned immune from being made up?
Yip Man only knows Chung Choi?
Anyone who makes up the story needs to be more clever then this.
if people want evidence of things then look at the historical documents about yuen kay san and sum nung’s accomplishments (fight records and writings about them that were made at the time they were alive). go to the KF hall of fame museum in Fatsan and check it out for yourself. Ask yourself why yiu choi and yip man are not there despite being part of the “3 heroes of wing chun”
Still that doesnt prove Yip Man only Knows Chung Choi.
You see, YKS and SN are good.
However, there is a different between praise on YKS/ SN which everyone agree; and step on Yip Man as one likes it and how one likes it.
Now, turning the question around, how much WCK do yourself know? how many of Yip Man’s top students and grand students have you play with? for you to pass your story?
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032783]as usual you don’t read other people’s posts and just blabber on.
i specifically said i am not arguing who is better. i am just stating what i have learned.
you can state the history you have learned, i can state the history i have learned. in the end neither of us have any evidence to prove any claim, but just like Rene’s example with the incident in the 70s he trusts his sources and I trust mine.
funny that no one objected to Rene’s story, but as soon as you say something politically incorrect everyone calls you crazy. this inconsistency is obviously caused by an emotional factor[/QUOTE]
Rene had shared with me his experience after he visited SN.
I buy what Rene told me because working with Rene on many projects bring me to respect his neutral, details, and professional approached.
IMHO,
You could shared good things on YKS and SN here but please dont pass Ip Man’s bad story to respect those who has already passed away.
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032688]im saying that yip man learned sticky hands from yuen kay san for a short period of time. YM had only really mastered the chung choi before this. reportedley yuen kay san was also reluctant to teach yip man because he was learning a different style of wing chun. YKS is an ‘old school’ type of guy who is in the tradition of keeping skills and knowledge within the inner circle of his own KF family.
those are the facts that i know.[/QUOTE]
So how long does it take to learn Chi Sao? To master it might take a long while, but from one WCK person to another, how long does it really take? Also, I am sure Chan Wah Shun lineage has Chi Sao - they may not have started with the same Luk Sao platform as in YKS… Yip Man saw the value in that and learned the Luk Sao platform and filled it in with his WCK application - use of body structure, engaging, asking, feinting, enticing, drawing, guiding, leading, evasion, absorption, issuing, rising, sinking, finishing, intercepting, running, sticking, rubbing, tools such as Tan Da, Lop Da, Pal Da, etc. are the main training methods. Did YKS really teach Yip Man Chi Sao or the platform of Luk Sao? Since I learned both YKS and Yip Man systems, it is more the individual’s “game”, i.e. his “gung fu” or attainment.
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032688]from that i see the the confusion over what sticky hands is and the difference in how it is trained. i think even bruce lee (direct YM student) said that it is just for practice and not applicable. you can also see the difference in the way people train the wooden dummy.[/QUOTE]
I don’t think Chi Sao is just a drill, but it is attribute development. Fighting is a matter of your skills, applying your advantages, to place against your opponent’s disadvantages. It is a way for insiders to the WCK family to safely develop their skills, not play pattycake.
[QUOTE=Pacman;1032688]to debate whether sticky hands is practical or not is not my intention, but the difference in views of what sticky hands is between the YKS and YM lineage is evidence that YM did not absorb everything YKS knew about chi sau. combine that with the limited time to learn and it fits together.
it might also explain why we see the chung choi as the go to move in YM wing chun and why people on this forum such as sanjuro ronin think WC is all about charging like a rhino into the “close range” with the chung choi[/QUOTE]
YM has his complete game for him, and for what he passed on to his students is very complete. Ultimately, it is not about who’s system is more complete, it is about what you do to complete for yourself. All martial arts are really you learning about you, and how you make it work for you.
BTW, I do do not know if Paul said that about WCK, but WCK is no rhino method, perhaps to outsiders without enough detailed instruction, that’s what it appears to be.