P.S it is my view that many people get into wrestling arts because they can’t handle being punched in the face or the guts. This after many years of watching that happen again and again.
I can see why you would say that, but IMO its not. Some people gravitate towards the grappling aspects of arts, myself included. It’s in my nature and I feel more comfortable in that range. I’ve been punched in the gut and face on many occations and probably like it as well as the next guy in line. No one likes to take one like that but it’s part of the game. Most of the people that get into the wrestling/grappling arts tend like the controlling aspect of it. To me it’s just another area to train in that is crucial, but it’s also one that I am more proficient in.
Another thing you see in that area is bigger guys. Not all mind you but a higher percentage. I would venture to say that strength is an applicable outlet in it. And being bigger has it’s benifits when doing wrestling/grappling.
But I get what your saying, but again I would say that some just gravitate towards it for the body structure they hold and their comfort level in it.
Here are TCMA front kick and modern Wushu front kick. Will you be able to see any major difference there?
You may see that the TCMA way is a “downward” curve, and the modern Wushu is an “upward” curve.
The TCMA way is not just bend your leg, fold your upper leg and lower leg, and then straight it out. It’s much more complicate than that. If you look at the toe (or instep), it’s always remain a perfect “straight line (or downward curve)”.
[QUOTE=wenshu;1152738]That there is some fancy walking.
You know how sometimes wushu players will use chalk or baking soda in their sleeves, pant cuffs and on the insteps of their shoes to create a dramatic effect when they slap kick and all that?
They should start using glitter. Xuanzi zhuanti into ce kong fan into xuan feng jiao [SIZE=“4”]POW![/SIZE] glitter bomb. Sparkly dramatic pose.
I mean, if you’re already affecting effeminate mannerisms while wearing pastel colored silk, might as well go for the full homo.[/QUOTE]
Call me pretentious and haughty, but this made me almost choke on my triple mocha latte!
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1152743]Wushu takes a lot of its posturing from classical Chinese opera. If you’ve ever watched that stuff, you can see how one aspect of performance integrated into kung fu. We ran an article on this in our 2009 May/June issue: A Day at the Beijing Opera: An Analysis of the Wushu and Acrobatic Skills of Beijing Opera By Emilio Alpanseque
I love the fight scenes in Beijing Opera. There’s some amazing stuff, especially in Monkey King. That’s some 200+ years of tradition pouring into kung fu. I just can’t hang with pentatonic scale for too long. :o
I’ve seen many performances of Crossroads . Each one can be different - performance and choreography - depending on the troupe.
I got a VCD of the performance in Beijing from the Chang’an (Beijing Opera) Grand Theatre (), I went there especially to get it as I had seen it performed years earlier by a touring Beijing Opera Troupe.
The VCD is only about 28 minutes and the story revolves around just the one scene. There is a bit more on the VCD than the youtube versions with some supporting actors and dialogue.
The Chinese opera “Meeting at the Crossroads,” where an innkeeper thinks his guest is a famous bandit and sneaks into his room at night to kill him. The actors pretend to fight in the dark.
San Cha Kou is one of the classical traditional martial drama highlights in Beijing Opera of China. It shows the depths and artistic values of Beijing Opera. Since the scenes showcase the bodily movements, it is easy for foreigners to understand. Therefore, it is one of the best works for foreigners to learn about Beijing Opera and one of the windows for Beijing Opera to go international.
In Lorge’s new book, Chinese Martial Arts, he finds evidence of martial dances as far back as the Warring States period (475 to 221 BCE). Martial dances appear across many cultures, not just Chinese. You’ll find them in Europe, the Americas, Africa, pretty much in every traditional culture.
Martial elements have inspired other cultural expressions; call it literature, dancing, theater etc. However there is a big difference between those and Martial oriented practices, where the goal is to fight (battle field or self defense). Just because armies participate in parades or demonstrations, do this means that their main purpose is to show off or look pretty? Military dances were use in different social outlet such as ceremonies, but they had a practical purpose, as a way of training fighting skills. This might be the earliest form of routines/taolu practice.
Routines in the army is a way to train large groups of people, where you can gauge the level of development of the soldiers without taking too much time. Of course routines must be followed by applications and free fighting practice. This is quite different from modern/competition wushu. Wushu separates taolu, practiced without applications and following the Olympic motto “Citius, Altius, Fortius.”, which explains the inclusion of "nandu (difficult movements) all of which are aesthetics. Even Sanshou has no connection with taolu practice. What is the point to train one way but fight in another way. If one has to do that then there is a serious problem with the skills being practice.
Independent scholars in China and the west have pointed out this and other issues with the current wushu/sanshou practice. If one claim to train MARTIAL arts then you better know how to hold your own, otherwise there is no substance.
[QUOTE=William123;1153016]This might be the earliest form of routines/taolu practice.
[/QUOTE]
also in regards to actual warriors performing an arangement of martial techniques in a personally developed pattern, the records of the grand historian are full of examples of accomplished warriors performing sword dances.
now this is not the same as the modern equivelant, but it is definately evidence that this tradition is far older than even empty hand martial sets.
in addition, this is not a tradition that is held only in china/asia, but is also found in the mediterranean, africa, the native americas and europe as well.
Did I ever tell you about when I used to make swords for belly dancers?
That was a great gig. When it comes to figuring out how best to balance a shamshir on a woman’s hip, there’s just no substitute for experience.
The word for martial (wu ) is a ****phone for the word for dance (wu ). It’s a point that most any CMa researcher has come across and is well reiterated by Lorge. Like I’ve said earlier, I’ve never had issues with martial dancers. I tell ya, working with those belly dancers sold me over. But seriously, dance is great. The only issue I have is with martial dancers who claim they are fighters. I have issues there in the same way I have issues with anyone who make false or deluded claims. But that’s a separate issue entirely. For the martial arts to grow, we need to embrace all of our permutations. It’s not just about who can beat down who in the cage. Kung fu is about hard earned skill. Fighting skill is just one aspect of it. Certainly all martial arts should be rooted in martial skills, but I’m not about to exclude dancers. They make better movies.
Coincidentally, we just had the Beijing Wushu Team in our studio yesterday. They were a great group of young athletes - fun, friendly, enthusiastic and in fantastic condition. They weren’t fighters, although I wouldn’t write them off entirely. They were fast and accurate in peak physical condition, highly competitive, and given a sharp, many of them could get the job done.
Coincidentally, we just had the Beijing Wushu Team in our studio yesterday. They were a great group of young athletes - fun, friendly, enthusiastic and in fantastic condition. They weren’t fighters, although I wouldn’t write them off entirely. They were fast and accurate in peak physical condition, highly competitive, and given a sharp, many of them could get the job done
When I think of wushu I think of Pro wrestling. yeah it’s fake and the guys really can’t fight ( well most of them) it’s about entertainment. Wushu is something along those line to me. It’s entertaining to watch, the guys are athletic to do some of that stuff, but in the end is that real fighting NO. Same as in Pro wrestling is that fighting and would that work probably not.
[QUOTE=GeneChing;1153035] For the martial arts to grow, we need to embrace all of our permutations. It’s not just about who can beat down who in the cage. Kung fu is about hard earned skill. Fighting skill is just one aspect of it. Certainly all martial arts should be rooted in martial skills, but I’m not about to exclude dancers. They make better movies. ;)[/QUOTE]
The biggest problem I see is that all the other non martial aspects of todays “martial” expressions are polluting what in the past were survival skills. No wonder many of todays “masters” are reverse engineering, inventing or plainly ignoring the applications of what they teach. At this rate we can kiss TCMA goodbye.
[QUOTE=Dragonzbane76;1153039]When I think of wushu I think of Pro wrestling. yeah it’s fake and the guys really can’t fight ( well most of them) it’s about entertainment. Wushu is something along those line to me. It’s entertaining to watch, the guys are athletic to do some of that stuff, but in the end is that real fighting NO. Same as in Pro wrestling is that fighting and would that work probably not.[/QUOTE]
Funny you say that because one of the conversations I referenced earlier about Wushu’s declining popularity in China made this same comparison.
OK. There’s wushu and then there’s Wushu.
The problem I have is with capital w “Wushu”. The over sanitized, figure skating on carpet Wushu. It is not purely the performance aspect I have a problem with. It’s that it is all the same; from the choreography to the individual movements to the facial expressions to the increasing femininity. Take ten top level competitors and they all do every single movement exactly the same, no variation, no flavor. Maybe they might mix up the order of the nandu in a routine, or add an extra spin but that’s it.
I’ve started recognizing group choreography lifted from the Beijing wushu team performed by American performers and I don’t even watch that much Wushu.
[QUOTE=Lucas;1153049]what about fighters claiming they are dancers??[/QUOTE] Like Chuck Liddell?
When I first came of drinking age, I was heavy into Pro Wrasslin’. This was prior to the WWE, back the the good ol’ daze of NWA and AWA. Perhaps that betrays my inclination. I’m easily entertained by mock violence.
I’ve never sympathized with the position that TCMA will die because of the influence of modern wushu. There will always be people who want to fight. Always. Anyone who propounds TCMA earnestly get to the root of it and practice what works. Any TCMA exponent who to blames modern wushu for watering down TCMA is just being ridiculous. Never mind what other people are practicing. Focus on what you are practicing. If your TCMA lacks fighting skills, the only person to blame is yourself. You shouldn’t expect others to maintain the practice. The martial arts maintain a DIY philosophy.
You make an excellent point Gene. It’s always been ironic to me that TCMAists believe/complain that modern wushu will destroy TCMA. The only way that could happen is if the very people complaining are taking part in that destructive process.
So if you think contemporary wushu will hurt tcma, then ask yourself how much you are contributing to the proper development of wushu compared to how much you contribute to the development of modern performance martial arts.
When I first came of drinking age, I was heavy into Pro Wrasslin’. This was prior to the WWE, back the the good ol’ daze of NWA and AWA. Perhaps that betrays my inclination. I’m easily entertained by mock violence.
I’ve never sympathized with the position that TCMA will die because of the influence of modern wushu. There will always be people who want to fight. Always. Anyone who propounds TCMA earnestly get to the root of it and practice what works. Any TCMA exponent who to blames modern wushu for watering down TCMA is just being ridiculous. Never mind what other people are practicing. Focus on what you are practicing. If your TCMA lacks fighting skills, the only person to blame is yourself. You shouldn’t expect others to maintain the practice. The martial arts maintain a DIY philosophy.[/QUOTE]
Ridiculous is to think that mixing dancing, movie style wushu and flowery crap into CMA to attract customers is not affecting them in any way. The party’s version of CMA takes away from those who want to teach the real deal (not that there are many left anyway). How many people join clubs based on what they see in the movies or wushu competitions, it looks cool sure and…? The market for TCMA is shrinking and then came MMA, nuff said. Luckily Shaolin Monastery still preserves the original practices eh?
And yes I am doing my part, you?
i have to echo gene’s sentiments that blaming wushu for traditional falling out of style is ridiculous (and childish, as far as i am concerned). as someone who has practiced both art forms for a number of years, i can say that there is a distinctly different crowd in each camp. wushu is primarily young athletes in the college age-range, while traditionalists often consists of a more broad range of ages, lifestyles (everything from new-agers to “glorified kick boxers”) and a lower athletic ability (honestly, i’m willing to bet that more than half the people on this forum [or in this discussion, for that matter] couldn’t take a good bowel movement without getting winded).
saying that one takes away from another is like blaming baseball for taking athletes away from basketball.
Dancing and flowery crap have been part of CMA for centuries
Didn’t I say that already? Movies are new. That’s only been the last few decades. Videogames are even newer. I imagine they’ve had some impact. I remember after Crouching Tiger came out, I had a student ask me, in all seriousness, when we were going to learn how to fly. Of course, that was over a decade ago now.
Actually, from the inside, TCMA is not shrinking. It’s not really growing, but it’s not really shrinking either. The market is about the same as it ever was, barring that huge boost we got back in the Bruce Lee days. I’m not sure where that myth got started. Karate is shrinking. TKD is about the same. MMA is growing, obviously. This is based on seeing accounts from Tiger Claw, which is one of the nation’s largest suppliers to schools and stores. The economy has been hard on martial arts schools across the board, but in terms of proportional slices of the pie, TCMA certainly isn’t shrinking, once you adjust for the general recession.
I will say that the most detrimental effect modern wushu has had on TCMA has been weapons manufacturing. Now, the bulk of the market is skewed towards wushu weapons. As a weapons maker myself, that sucks. There are still some really fine high-end pieces, even better quality than previously, but the market isn’t supporting them as much as it is going for cheap weapons. This is exacerbated by the growing economic strength of China, which is where the bulk of martial arts weapons for all styles are made nowadays. I’m hoping that when the economy improves, we’ll see a swing back.
the most recent duan system propounded by the IWuF requires the talou practitioner to demonstrate a certain number of applications per routine to achieve ranking…but i’m sure most of you knew that
it seems like a loaded question when you refer to the applications as “demonstrations” (or, preconceived at the very least). i would say that the applications are done much in the same way as those who have been villifying wushu would practice them.
