Hi,
I am a member of a small discussion group comprising mainly of “Hua Chiao”, overseas Chinese. This group is bonded in their zeal for traditional Chinese Kung Fu.
One recent hot topic of discussion is this;
“Wushu-nization of traditional arts by mainland China”.
Many members think that it is hard these days to set apart mainland’s traditional arts from Wushu.
Do you see this?
Thanks.
Honestly, I look forward to the Wushu-nization of all traditional Chinese arts. It needs to happen, because those classical CMAs are stagnated systems of combat anyway. Making them Wushu-nized will bring them some purpose in the modern world. Just like Judo and Aikido brought life to the dying/dead art of Jujitsu.
sorry i disagree, judo brought life to jiu jitsu because Jiu-Jitsu was looked down on and was disliked by many, almost like it was a dis-honrable art to practice. Although many people these days dont care for TCMA, it is not looked down apon in a similar manner. Judo brought in compitition and sparring, things that jiujitsu didn’t offer at the time. judo made people see this art as a respectable art with a purpose. i think that wu-shu has its place but not with traditional martial arts. The problem is that there are not many capable teachers that can teach martial arts and not enough people that are willing enough to put in the time, effort, and practice it takes to become proficient in TCMA. It will not bring TCMA purpose, it will take it away.
TCMAs purpose nowadays is no different from Wushu’s purpose. Anyone doing TCMA for self defense will be just as well off doing Wushu in all honesty.
As for Juijitsu, it became a dead art because it stagnated. TCMAs are in the same boat because they refuse to compete against other styles to prove their effectiveness against modern arts.
I wil lbriefly address BPB’s statement, only to clarify things so we can get on with a discussion. I will take for granted that you are simply not trolling, or starting that tired argument about CMA not training realistically-each school is different so don’t judge CMA by a few (or alot) of what you have seen.
There are CMA schools that are hands on, stress conditioning,reaction drills, hard contact,ground fighting, and constant pressure testing, fighting with their Gung-Fu,with forms and demos taking less of a priority.
By the way, if you do your research, this is not a new delema, but siomething that has been going on for HUNDREDS of years.
Secondly, we are usingthe term “Wu-SHu” to mean the contemporary Martial Performance art created in PRC. Yeas, we all know that wu-shu actually means milatary/martial art, guo-shu means National Art, but China has decised that Wu-Shu is the official name of this art. They can change the meansings of words just as easily as they can change forms in MA/ Remember they have decided that Ch’uan is spelled quan,ch’i is spelled qi, shing is spelled xing, so why are we not surprised?
Wu-Shu is China’s National Treasure, National SPort and National Pastime. Since all revolutions against the Chinese Govt were started by Martial Artists, they removed the combat applications, and to instill national pride, they remodled the forms to be aesthetically pleasing with acrobatics and posture taken from Opera and poses taken from the propaganda posters. (remove Mao Jacket, farm tools and red book, insert silks,staff and broadsword-presto-chango-Wu-Shu)
As far as the wushu-ization of TCMA is concerned, it is even worse than that-since the 79’s people have “jazzed up” their forms for demos, competitions, to the point that they are laughable. Famous Sifus and Masters have schools that are a mere shadow of their former glory, as the inmates are now running the asylums, and they compromise their art for the sake of commercialization. Their forms start to change to keep up with the times-set forth by open Karate tournaments, television, whatever, and they are either to tired to resist, or they fear they will lose their students to the guy down the block.
But there are some of us, few, but some, who stick to our guns. we are “Dinosaurs” but these Dianosaurs also train their students so the art is NOT watered down, and gains strength each generation. We have open minds enough to do whatever it takes to improve our art and our students. Not by making it a chop-suey art, but by training attributes, skills,technique.
Not all of the TCMA will become dance/wushu. There are those that would not see this and others that refuse to debase and degrade their arts into performance which is not the goal of TCMA. Just because something is modern does not mean that it is better. This is like saying that soon we will take the military and it will all be based on the Cirque de soleil…
Huh??? You mean the military is not based on the Cirque de soleil???
I thought the military was all about peacekeeping, not fighting. And CMA is all about health, not fighting.
Fragmentation by Sportification …
Here’s how I define the terms:
Traditional Wushu :- it’s any Chinese martial arts that has a functional corpus with a real and tangeable lineage. It has a practical approach to train any and all people to fight.
Modern Wushu & San Shou :- Sports that are created by the Communist government since 1950s with Traditional Wushu collaborators.
Kung Fu :- A distinct and unique Chinese martial arts developed out of ancient and traditional knowledge that has an unmistakable Chinese worldview (ie Yinyang, 5 phases, etc). It is a highly philosophical, spiritual as well as functional personal experssion in combative form.
So you see Kung Fu can be any Wushu but not all Wushu is Kung Fu. In truth, Kung Fu should rather be categorized as Wu Xue (martial academia) not just art. At the very core of Kung Fu, it is about education. Learning to be human and Learning to be a gentleman (or lady) who have combat courage (Yong). It’s truely a union of the Gang and Rou and a marriage of civil and martial.
However, such a person, nay, a scholar/sage is intimidating to any totalitarian state. This is the reason CPC decided to implement the master plan -Fragmentation by Sportification of Martial Academia. You divide and you conquer them much easier one by one. Modern Wushu became forms only and it got the reputation that it can’t fight (because it really can’t due to the way that it is taught). Then they introduce San Shou the sport which is “practiced regularly by the military”. Folks, we have you by the balls and don’t you forget it. :eek:
Most Kung Fu people really can’t be bothered. Only those who are interested in self promoting or groupies as they call it in North America would rather collaborate. It is so far successful in creating a rift between people who holds to the truth and people who found bliss in ignorance. When you have star power people such as Jet Li comparing Kung Fu masters to any and all grass root level tradesmen in restaurants, hair Saloons and even taxi drivers, you know the level of ignorance is astounding.
A people without understand its past does not have a future. Kung Fu and traditional Wushu can lead us to the understanding of traditional knowledge and in turn help us be all that we can be. The best of sportification can do is to put you in a piece of fake gold hanging at your neck and drag you into the abyss of self gratification.
Mantis108
PS no art is a dead art unless practiced by Zombies. So…
Arts are dead when they cease to evolve and lose their original purpose. TCMAs are in such a position.
Of course there’s nothing wrong with studying such arts. For example, I can study Alchemy as opposed to Chemistry, though the former is a dead science, and the latter is far more effective and logical.
No, I’m not a troll. I’m simply pointing out that wushu is the eventual future of the CMAs. Traditionalists may not like to hear that, but its true.
please explain why TCMA are dead and stagnant. i don’t see it:confused: 
:eek:
Bpb
Please explain how you can objectively say that modern wushu is a chance of evolution for TCMA. What kind of evolution? In techniques? For real combat situation? For performances?
Just asking…
Regards,
Luca
PS: in my personal opinion (and underline my personal opinion) wushu was, is and will be not a chance of evolution,…but just a step backward, to what the Chinese achieved in thousands of years of evolution.
purpose of wat ? money? be a fake shaolin monk and dance around on stage and break wood? prance around like a circus to make money?
i will neva be caught dead in a turqouise/aqua/tangerine colored silk tong jong(chinese uniform)
go to the mardi gras if u wanna be accepted for wearing those hideous colors
Yes this is intended for serious discussion.
What we sought is your perception/perspective pertaining to something that has been going on for a while now.
A sensitive topic and to some, maybe, even taboo to talk about.
Need to establish some premises before proceeding;
• This group of friends, like I mentioned, are mainly overseas Chinese; now re-located throughout Asia. Some of them are “custodians” of their family arts. When the communists first presided over China, Kung Fu practitioners became one of the earliest victims of “re-education”. Many were killed and other fled or went underground. Some allowed themselves to be “re-educated” and were absorbed into the communist mainstream. Don’t expect to read accurate portrayal of this in standard history books; like the 4th Jun Tiananmen incident, you’ll get much sanitized account in most mainland publications.
• When I use the term “Wu-Shu”, I am talking about competition performance forms. Make no mistake here; even the people who teach and train in this are fully aware that the objective is PERFORMANCE. Very aesthetically appealing with movements/postures added that has absolutely nothing at all to do with FIGHTING. Their training might, in some parts, resembles traditional training but the uppermost concern is still to look good and score points according to set specifications. Funny thing is that, here in Asia, there was a time that this distinction was very clear. No pretending. If you do modern Wu-Shu, you know exactly why you’re there. There was a very comfortable co-existence, a lot of space in between.
So why bring out this topic here and now?
There is a “subtle” under current trend that has been going on for the last 10 – 15 years that we think should be highlighted and discussed.
I am not going to delve into effectiveness of TCMAs here. I think the onus is for the individual to decide given that we do different arts, train with different teachers and live in different environments.
Need also to state this before proceeding; we are not saying that all traditional arts are dead in PROC. But there are some that are indisputably stopped there and in fact, survive only outside PROC.
In many ways, we see PROC “re-inventing” many arts.
Don’t know about the West but here we see Wu-shu going a full cycle so to speak. Competition Wu-shu, centrally controlled by PROC, is in some ways, dwindling. In most parts of SE Asia, this genre is largely infused into regular schools’ sports program. Most participants here are schools students.
You don’t find that many independent setups teaching competition Wu-shu. They are either sponsored by the education or sports departments or ministries as it’s more commonly known in these parts.
Contrary to points raised by some, there is really some kind of “revival” in TCMAs.
Many folks are weary of the tons of new stuff coming out of PROC.
If I just take Tai Chi as a for instance, there was a time that PROC was dishing out something new every other month. These were sold throughout this region in the forms of DVDs, manuals, books and you name it. Followed by teachers and experts all ready to conduct courses under all sorts of arrangement.
Many of these took on a “franchise” modus operandi.
These state of things crept in many styles of TCMAs.
All these, just like Wu-shu, meant big time money.
You cannot believe the quantity of PROC “Traditional” kung fu DVDs that you are able to find in some big cities around here.
“Traditional Masters” with new found freedom springing up everywhere and now ready to share everything they know.
The one thing that is common and noticeable is that a lot of these “traditional” arts from PROC are very Wushu-like.
Many traditional forms are spiced up with flowers and gestures and done with rhythm suggesting entertainment.
There was a time in Hong Kong that Wu-shu was described as “All poses and no fight”. This is starting to ring true for many TCMAs practiced on the mainland.
I repeat; we are not saying that is happening to every style.
But in the few styles that we are familiar with, this is rampant.
The line between TCMAs and Wushu is blurring.
Thank you.
In all honesty, there isn’t much purpose for TCMA besides competition, exercise, self defense, or money making schemes. The problem is that Wushu can offer those same benefits, and in the case of exercise and competition, even moreso.
As for the uniforms, all of them aren’t bad. Though some truly are…
I love Wushu! I wish I could move like that. People around here love to talk smack, but the fact is that true Wushu guys are athletes who could probably run circles around the people who nay say it.
Is it fighting? No, but that doesn’t make it worthless.
TCMAs were structured for fighting, PERIOD. Certainly many arts added breathing techniques, spiritual development, etc., but all of those were a means to an end. That end of course was to make the most well-rounded fighter possible. Various schools competed with other to prove their superiority over many generations. There were even full contact bouts between schools.
However all of that has ceased. TCMAs now are pretty much locked in form training, very little of which has to do with actual fighting applications. Take for example a discussion I had with a gentleman who said he could stop a takedown by “rooting” himself. Nevermind the fact that no one has ever been able to do that, and if they have, they need to come out of hiding and train me so I can make millions of dollars on the NHB circuit.
And that above is exactly why TCMAs are dead arts. If I had asked someone who is an actual fighter, I’d get a more logical answer. An answer born from actual fighting experience, and not mystical heresay. Unfortunately many TCMA instructors don’t want to adapt their art into something more effective. They want to keep it as “original” or as “authentic” as possible as if the old masters knew more about fighting than what we know today.
Let me tell you something; Your old master didn’t fight like Jackie Chan in Drunken Master or like Jet Li in Fist of Legend. No, they more than likely fought like this;
http://mplay.donga.com/dkbnews/2004/0401_ohvsjin.wmv
Of course I know that TCMAs have been around for the thousands of years. But then again so have swords. There’s a reason why soldiers nowadays carry guns into actual conflicts, and there’s a reason why swordarts like fencing and Kendo are competitive sports.
Sound familiar? It should.
LOL. The funny thing is, I know exactly what that guy is talking about, and I use that technique all the time. It works about as often as a sprawl does. Thing is, it’s more a function of timing than it is root. Time it right, and it’s the other guy rooting you into the ground. Time it wrong, and you better have a decent guard game.
Mufuhok,
Does Wushu-nization mean de-martialisation or does it mean popularisation?
Remember, as a lead up to the Bejing Olympics, the PRC started boosting Wu-shu in anticipation of having it in the Olympics, thus there has been a short term peak.
I believe it has now been dropped, but the momentum remains.
Also, while there may be an increase in the number of Wu Shu players, it does not necessarily mean there is a corresponding decrease in the number of Traditional Players.
Good TCMA has always been rare, and I suspect it will remain so, but that doesnt mean its dead, just not popularised.
Yum Cha,
Wushu-nization to the point of de-martialization.
Don’t think it’s a question of popularization.
With some arts, mainlanders have literally forgotten how it was done.
Imo, with the little that they still remember, they add what they do best – Wushu movements.
Question; have you seen DVDs from mainland featuring classical forms with all sort of flowery movements?
And to the statement made earlier; Wushu guys can run circles around TCMAs – got to say I agree partially.
They can sure run.
Thanks.