[QUOTE=anerlich;1025800]A long time ago in a galaxy far far away …[/QUOTE]
Let me guess. You were the Wookie.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1025800]A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I attended a William Cheung seminar where he explored the use of the phoenix eye fist in great detail.
Whether he learned it from YM is something else, it’s not exactly rare or hard to come across, but it is definitely part of TWC.[/QUOTE]
Makes sense to me, phoenix eye fist being a tool seen in many southern fist systems. It is also taught in HFY, and is seen in the second section of our SNT form.
It’s got a lot of usefull uses where a regular ‘flat’ fist might not fit as well.
Let me guess. You were the Wookie.
At least I wasn’t Jar Jar Binks or C3PO 
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1025861]Makes sense to me, phoenix eye fist being a tool seen in many southern fist systems. It is also taught in HFY, and is seen in the second section of our SNT form.
It’s got a lot of usefull uses where a regular ‘flat’ fist might not fit as well.[/QUOTE]
Well it certainly works in grappling getting the RNC when people are grabbing onto anything they can like fingers to prevent something from encircling their neck.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1025842]some of his guys, gwok fu etc do it. I read that william did some stuff with lun Gai but not sure.
The side body things means when you are in a side body stance for several reason the shoulder is the elbow. seems simple. like when turned the elbow becomes the centre. There can be times when you have to fight in a more of a boxing facing and then the shoulder is your centre.
Maybe you should have askedand waited for an answer without making one up.[/QUOTE]
Being so simple, are you saying that what I suggested isn’t simple?
“3 centrelines, gin (facing), pien (angled) and juk (side) san (body) methods.”
As for the Phoenix Eye, I agree that it’s common in most southern styles, so in a sense it’s not a specific Wing Chun technique at all, BUT it IS in Wing Chun.
Can anyone share with us WHY it’s so common??!!
[QUOTE=anerlich;1025800]A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I attended a William Cheung seminar where he explored the use of the phoenix eye fist in great detail.
Whether he learned it from YM is something else, it’s not exactly rare or hard to come across, but it is definitely part of TWC.[/QUOTE]
it’s alsoa part of the Ng Chun Hong curriculum
[QUOTE=chusauli;1025245]Hi Graham,
May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, “Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng” (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).
I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.
Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.[/QUOTE]
are you talking about when the shoulder faces the opponent?
if yes i would agree, if no i would respectfully disagree
Well it certainly works in grappling getting the RNC when people are grabbing onto anything they can like fingers to prevent something from encircling their neck.
True, we did it in BJJ class just a few days ago as a method of inserting your hand into tiny gaps so you can extract and isolate an arm.
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1025600]“As I touched on before, it seems TWC uses centerline an imaginary targeting line for the basis of the hop in the entry technique which is a very committed motion. It covers a great deal of distance but doesn’t leave much ability to adjust once you’re airborne. That’s the key reason we in HFY would call that floating bridging, for our Kiu Sao centerline to be born correctly we need to be able to engage and adjust with the changing engagement.” (Eric H)
…
***AND ONE of the big points about the TWC Entry technique that MANY people just don’t get (you know, like trying to talk about things they really don’t know much about :D)…
is that the back foot never really leaves the ground.
The heel is lifted as you push off for momentum - but the ball and toe area of the foot slides across the floor - while the lead knee is raised up to protect the lower gates.
So it’s not really meant to cover a great deal of distance, just enough to get you from non-contact range to contact. In other words, it’s a way to “bridge the gap” safely…because each gate is being covered with a shield: the raised knee, and both arms (the rear hand at the middle gate and lead hand covering/shielding the upper gate).
Part of what William Cheung calls INTERRUPTABILITY. When you’re not completely airborne, you can control, interrupt, stop, and quickly put the lead foot down in order to modify your positioning by changing your direction.[/QUOTE]
Enough with big bad billy’s Kandy Kid rave entry.
It is a flawed, unstable and useless technique. Not just because of the technique itself, but because there are so many better options available.
It won’t be safe against a hard leg kicker, as it is both unstable and immobile at the same time.
It telegraphs what you’re about to do, and as a direct result violates many of the fundamental principles of the system we all train in.
If the back foot never leaves the ground, you can’t move much at all, let alone quickly.
In fact, your statement holds little validity when Big bad billy himself has released videos showing the technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTXA5snEYa8
He clearly jumps up, and his rear foot leaves the ground.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1026050]True, we did it in BJJ class just a few days ago as a method of inserting your hand into tiny gaps so you can extract and isolate an arm.[/QUOTE]
I’d suggest that if you’re using a phoenix eye’d shape hand coz it assists the insertion, then it’s actually chaap jeurng you’re doing. Chaap meaning ‘threading’. Now, if you’re using the knuckle to apply pinpoint pressure to areas of the arm too then that’s more like what I’d expect a phoenix eye to be used for.
Still, can nobody tell me why the phoenix eye is so common in southern arts??
Looks like we’re back to dissing ‘Big Bad Billy’, which to me is just another pointless exercise that gets us all nowhere imho…
I’d suggest that if you’re using a phoenix eye’d shape hand coz it assists the insertion, then it’s actually chaap jeurng you’re doing.
Suggestion noted. It’s a phoenix eye.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1026097]Suggestion noted. It’s a phoenix eye.[/QUOTE]
Cool. As long as you understand what you’re doing in your BJJ class.
As long as you understand what you’re doing in your BJJ class.
Yeah, OK. Can you find someone else to patronize now, please?
We have no "phoenix Eye " punch in the WSL method. As WSL was taught by Yip Man its safe to say there shouldn’t be one in the Yip Man lineage either.
GH
Actually Yip man did the pheonix fist. As I said He didn’t teach it to his HK students for several reasons. If you look at most pictures of yip punching he still has the remenence of the pheonix fist. He leanrt it with chan wah shun. Hence the person say it was in the lineage of chan wah shun senior student that mainly taught Yip man as chan wah shun dies early in Yip’s training. The exact reason for why it was taken out is unkown. Going by when and why other system use it you can guess but it is only a guess. I am from a WSL lineage so I am not biased in any way.
In china when chi saoing you will find they tend to do it alot. Including gwok Fu and lung Gai (his first students, Gwok Fu is famous in Fut san as being Yip man fighter) They tend to slip it over the tan sao with a pivot or step slightly to the side. You would not beleive the amount of people it catches. I tend to think about the pheonix fist being like the first movement in CK. The finger strike. This makes more sense when done with a pheonix fist. The elbow slides over the arm while still keeping control. So where a normal vertical punch would jam the pheonix fist comes over while controling and can hit. It was traditionally used for meridan points but in WSL VT or just normal people the point hitting is generally not beleived.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1026100] Cool. As long as you understand what you’re doing in your BJJ class.[/QUOTE]
What a tool. No, in BJJ they just show you the hand shape and you use it. No need to debate over which ‘proper Chinese approved WCK term’ you are using.
Function over convention. WCK could learn a few things from this.
“Being so simple, are you saying that what I suggested isn’t simple?”(lone tiger)
No man, why so touche. I was mainly replying to roberts, I heard it and made my own interpretation of what they said. This is the problem with most people. I am sure that this was taught as a normal thing in your school, being a proper yip man system school. Same as our school. The problem is most don’t ask questions or do enough research to find out the right answer. They make it up. Althought your explanation was alot longer then mine atleast it was right. That is difference between spending everyday with your teacher day in and day out. Hearing the same thing over and over again. Hours a day doing the same thing and wondering while you do it all the questions you can think of for every thing you do. Asking your teacher not how do I do this but how do I teach this to people completly different to me, tall etc.
[QUOTE=anerlich;1026101]Yeah, OK. Can you find someone else to patronize now, please?[/QUOTE]
Ok, sorry if I come across like that. Not my intention.
If I wanted to be patronizing I would ask you for the Brazilian term for the move 
as surely BJJ is taught with Brazilian terms, no?
[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1026101]What a tool. No, in BJJ they just show you the hand shape and you use it. No need to debate over which ‘proper Chinese approved WCK term’ you are using.
Function over convention. WCK could learn a few things from this.[/QUOTE]
As long as you’re learning something, that’s all that counts. But I refer to my above point. Do you know the Brazilian term for the movement described?
[QUOTE=Bennyvt;1026101]I am sure that this was taught as a normal thing in your school, being a proper yip man system school. Same as our school. [/QUOTE]
Not really. The centreline idea was confusing until we covered the pole. Mind you, at the beginning I was ‘in another world’ so my confusion was my own blindness really. The gin, pien and juk san methods don’t seem to be discussed at ANY wing chun school I have had dialogue with. They tend to concentrate on one method, not all three.
[QUOTE=Bennyvt;1026101]The problem is most don’t ask questions or do enough research to find out the right answer. They make it up. Althought your explanation was alot longer then mine atleast it was right. That is difference between spending everyday with your teacher day in and day out. Hearing the same thing over and over again. Hours a day doing the same thing and wondering while you do it all the questions you can think of for every thing you do. Asking your teacher not how do I do this but how do I teach this to people completly different to me, tall etc. [/QUOTE]
That was all part of my personal journey too. Luckily I had a Sifu that, not only would answer my questions, but answered them very well indeed with a knowledge I have yet to see or hear anywhere else. I’m not saying he’s the best teacher in the world here either, but man he had access to some rich knowledge he inherited from Lee Shings teaching. In all honesty, I found myself not needing to ask many questions after a while, as his teaching gave you the answers within yourself (if that makes sense?)
Being taught AS a Sifu IS a different journey imho and I feel privilaged to have seen and heard what I have. Still, even as a Sifu I am a student, or practitioner if you like. Man, even my Sifu calls himself a student. Ip Man was still a student!
I get you. My teacher has taught me as a teacher. I don’t mean this in an arogant way. I found early on instead of just asking questions if you follow the teacher while everryone else asks question its a totally different way of thinking. Not understanding it just for yourself but being able to explain or show it to people no matter what there physical attributes. I’m tiny if I just showed how I did it the big guys would be screwed. I must say that although I haven’t actually learnt the pole, I have been at seminars, classes and dinner when it has been talked about. hence the being there all the time you tend to hear things that can come in handy latter. While I am just about to learn biu jee form I have heard the explanation heaps of times. The early section especially the wrist movement at the start (commonly used as some sort of weird finger flicking thing. Is the first concept of side ways usage, as the wrist block covers the entire body when in side facing (I hate the chinese terms bieng a dumb australian.) The angle of the other move make more sense when done from that stance also. While there are many reasons why you would HAVE TOO go to that facing it is not the preferred facing. The pole continues this training with the battle punches (the punches to the side without facing, again I suck at the terms).
This is what I meant as being with your teachers all the time, helping him out, getting the drinks for him and his teacher etc, going with him on drives to his teacher etc . By being with him and listening you learn more then you could ever learn in a class.
As far as the centre goes in my school it was simple, the shortest distance between your opponent is the centre, be that we face each other, on is turned or we are both turned. We also tend to use an axis more then centre. My teacher being a biologist he tends to be specific with terms, as the axis is more of an anatomical idea.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1026116]If I wanted to be patronizing I would ask you for the Brazilian term for the move as surely BJJ is taught with Brazilian terms, no?
[/QUOTE]
Actually, no. Brazilians teach with Brazilian terms, typically English speakers do not. Many Brazilians do not teach with Brazilian terms and do not insist upon whatever Brazilian terms are present being persisted as part of what they teach. Basically they don’t care if you know the name of something.
As long as you’re learning something, that’s all that counts. But I refer to my above point. Do you know the Brazilian term for the movement described?
No. Refer to my above point regarding form over function and the importance thereof.
[QUOTE=shawchemical;1026089]Enough with big bad billy’s Kandy Kid rave entry.
It is a flawed, unstable and useless technique. Not just because of the technique itself, but because there are so many better options available.
It won’t be safe against a hard leg kicker, as it is both unstable and immobile at the same time.
It telegraphs what you’re about to do, and as a direct result violates many of the fundamental principles of the system we all train in.
If the back foot never leaves the ground, you can’t move much at all, let alone quickly.
In fact, your statement holds little validity when Big bad billy himself has released videos showing the technique.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZTXA5snEYa8
He clearly jumps up, and his rear foot leaves the ground.[/QUOTE]
***God, you’re a clown.
I don’t care what’s on that vid - I’ve spent enough time with the man to know how he does it when it’s for real…and why it works so well against a kicker, in fact.