Hi all
I know this seems like quite a pedantic point but I was wondering when you perform your Fook Sau in Sil Lim Tao if you have the wrist joint or the first knuckle on your centreline. And is there are differences why you practice that particular way?
Its just a variation I have noticed amongst lineages which I’d like to explore so I can make up my own mind on the optimal position.
Regards
Wrists x the centerline , its the first action of every form, x wrists before the sternum and then extend out along the line: double wu sao, doble man sao. Each punch does the same, tan wrist, wu sao, fok sao …later the tut sao 'washing hands is the same, arms point forwards not down.
The intersection of our centerline ensures we ‘sweep’ the zone as we strike out along it.
[QUOTE=hpclub;1041334]Hi all
I know this seems like quite a pedantic point but I was wondering when you perform your Fook Sau in Sil Lim Tao if you have the wrist joint or the first knuckle on your centreline. And is there are differences why you practice that particular way?
Its just a variation I have noticed amongst lineages which I’d like to explore so I can make up my own mind on the optimal position.
Regards[/QUOTE]
The form only provides a “prototype” of the movement, an example as it were. Fook sao, like the other bridge hands, is not a shape or “position” but an action (you are doing something, and in the case of fook sao, you are as the name indicates, controlling something). How to optimally perform the action can only be determined via application - by trying to actually control an opponent and seeing what works best (for your).
you don’t control with a fok sao this is a classic ‘chi-sao head’ way of thinking 
its a way to develop the elbows for striking, the elbow is behind the wrist with inwards forwards pressure, so it ‘lat sao chit cheungs’ into bad partner elbow positions versus their tan sao. Further developing a mindless attacking ability. Fok is a jum sao strike without the fist made yet…wrists are relaxed ergo the ‘floppy hand’. If you try to control with the wrist of fok sao your in for a surprise when you meet someone who knows what they are doing …Terence is in for a surprise
You dont spar with a fok sao, you spar with the results of drilling with it…fight with punches, timing , distance, strategy…not a floppy fok sao :rolleyes:
dont look for 1:1 ‘fighting applications’ in SLT or you will end up confused Like T, the elbows are developed early on in the system to create forearms barriers that simultaneously counter certain angles of incoming force by intercepting them along our striking attack line…The functionality of our attacking depends on the constant correct angles of the forearms and height of the elbows, relative to our structures in movement, while fighting…simple really but hard to grasp without being shown its effectiveness first hand…FIGHTING. And not in a dirty T clinch.
“Fook” means to control or subdue, “sao” means arm/hand.
The terminology tells you what the action is. Sort of like “hip throw” – the term is descriptive. The terms “fook sao” and “hip throw” were adopted because they reflected what people were doing (or trying to do).
Your view that “hip throw” really doesn’t mean to throw someone with the hip – or that fook sao doesn’t really mean a controlling arm – that it is instead some entirely different action belies common sense.
As does your view that you practice one way of moving in chi sao to discard it later.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1041351]Your view that “hip throw” really doesn’t mean to throw someone with the hip – or that fook sao doesn’t really mean a controlling arm – that it is instead some entirely different action belies common sense.
As does your view that you practice one way of moving in chi sao to discard it later.[/QUOTE]I think he (KG) is pretty consistent with his training methodology. He is clear that the attributes developed in chi sao carry over into sparring. For his lineage it is all about developing the punch and the flowing atttack (sorry to paraphrase).
A bit like running to develop stamina for fighting but not actually running in the fight (which might actually be a good idea for “self defence”).
BUT to answer the question of the OP, it matters little. Most folks keep the arm on the centerline…this is to teach the body to get used to the inner elbow position and to generate the forward intent while on the inside attacking line. So I agree with Kevin to this point.
However I also agree that it is an action, as Terence points out. It is meant to serve as a controlling hand. This control could be simply controlling space, retaining the inside line with punching, or it could be controlling in that you’ve used it to stick to the attacking arm and redirect it around to gain an inside line (fook to huen). I’ve known people who think of man-geng-sao as a derivative of the fook sao.
There are probably a NUMBER of reasons why things are done the way they are done, to build attributes, to build application skill, to build muscle memory, etc etc.
The only right and wrong is based on the end result…does your fook sao work for you? Great! Because everyone is built differently, everyone will have a slightly different variation in their fook more than likely.
[QUOTE=t_niehoff;1041351]“Fook” means to control or subdue, “sao” means arm/hand.
[/QUOTE]
Fook Sau is to learn how to control the elbow for the punch. Its not to control your opponents arm!!! Anybody who has ever been in a fight will know that trying to control arms is not possible and its stupid to think that way!!! There is never any time to make arm contact let alone manipulate them and if it happens its over a the blink of an eye. The basic idea of Ving Tsun is to attack with the punch and keep attacking until the other guy is unable to continue. We must be free of contact so we can hit. The cycling of Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Wu Sau allows us to do this effectively. Bong Sau, Pak Sau and Jut Sau are there for us to open the way for the punch if required.
The usage of the elbow for the Ving Tsun punch is not a natural way for us humans to move our arms. We rarely, if ever, require the elbow to be inside and in front of the body in our everyday lives so SLT is there for us to make this possible. These are WSL’s words.
The Chi Sau bubble has ruined what in essence is a very effective form of unarmed combat. 
So Terry will please post some more of your head slapping links??? They are funny but not as funny as your subduing hands!!
GH
[QUOTE=CFT;1041372]I think he (KG) is pretty consistent with his training methodology. He is clear that the attributes developed in chi sao carry over into sparring. For his lineage it is all about developing the punch and the flowing atttack (sorry to paraphrase).
A bit like running to develop stamina for fighting but not actually running in the fight (which might actually be a good idea for “self defence”).[/QUOTE]
exactly, we are developing a fighting/striking attribute WE require to function. Otherwise elbows in would not be so important …
When we fight you dont see fok sao or jum or tan…just hitting, the energy of all the fok,tan, jum are in the arms from training. We attack as strikers.
[QUOTE=CFT;1041372]I think he (KG) is pretty consistent with his training methodology. He is clear that the attributes developed in chi sao carry over into sparring. For his lineage it is all about developing the punch and the flowing atttack (sorry to paraphrase).
A bit like running to develop stamina for fighting but not actually running in the fight (which might actually be a good idea for “self defence”).[/QUOTE]
Yes, he is consistent – consistently wrong.
Chi sao doesn’t develop “attributes”.
[QUOTE=Graham H;1041550]Fook Sau is to learn how to control the elbow for the punch. Its not to control your opponents arm!!!
[/QUOTE]
Are you serious? Control your own elbow – for your punch? Think about that. Why would you need to do that? Why not just practice doing that with your punch itself? Why do an entirely different action? How is that good training?
Anybody who has ever been in a fight will know that trying to control arms is not possible and its stupid to think that way!!! There is never any time to make arm contact let alone manipulate them and if it happens its over a the blink of an eye.
Wow. Then I guess it really makes no sense to practice chi sao since there is never any time to make arm contact, there is no sense is learning things like “trapping” or doing the lop sao drill, etc.
If you’re right, why don’t we just take up boxing, which has proven itself vastly superior to WCK in terms of free-movement striking?
The basic idea of Ving Tsun is to attack with the punch and keep attacking until the other guy is unable to continue. We must be free of contact so we can hit. The cycling of Tan Sau, Fook Sau and Wu Sau allows us to do this effectively. Bong Sau, Pak Sau and Jut Sau are there for us to open the way for the punch if required.
You think this is the “basic idea of WCK”? Interesting. And what do you think your opponent is doing while you are punching? Did it ever occur to you that he might just keep punching or try and clinch or shoot in, etc.? How do you deal with what your opponent is doing? Simply by punching?
Why not control your opponent while you strike him?
The usage of the elbow for the Ving Tsun punch is not a natural way for us humans to move our arms. We rarely, if ever, require the elbow to be inside and in front of the body in our everyday lives so SLT is there for us to make this possible. These are WSL’s words.
If these were WSL’s words, then WSL was an idiot. And I don’t think he was an idiot. 
Keeping the elbow in and down is quite natural in certain circumstance – and all clinch fighters do it.
The Chi Sau bubble has ruined what in essence is a very effective form of unarmed combat.
Yeah, that makes a great deal of sense too – the signature drill of WCK is what has ruined WCK!
Maybe, it’s because you have grasp of what the signature drill is trying to teach you.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1041340]you don’t control with a fok sao this is a classic ‘chi-sao head’ way of thinking its a way to develop the elbows for striking, the elbow is behind the wrist with inwards forwards pressure, so it ‘lat sao chit cheungs’ into bad partner elbow positions versus their tan sao. Further developing a mindless attacking ability. Fok is a jum sao strike without the fist made yet…wrists are relaxed ergo the ‘floppy hand’. If you try to control with the wrist of fok sao your in for a surprise when you meet someone who knows what they are doing …Terence is in for a surprise
You dont spar with a fok sao, you spar with the results of drilling with it…fight with punches, timing , distance, strategy…not a floppy fok sao :rolleyes:
dont look for 1:1 ‘fighting applications’ in SLT or you will end up confused Like T, the elbows are developed early on in the system to create forearms barriers that simultaneously counter certain angles of incoming force by intercepting them along our striking attack line…The functionality of our attacking depends on the constant correct angles of the forearms and height of the elbows, relative to our structures in movement, while fighting…simple really but hard to grasp without being shown its effectiveness first hand…FIGHTING. And not in a dirty T clinch.[/QUOTE]
Still waiting for those clips of you sparring.
post deleted
[QUOTE=Knifefighter;1041565]Still waiting for those clips of you sparring.[/QUOTE]
When i get a chance, we have taken movies just waiting to download them, still waiting for terences movies so we can get an ‘idea’ of how he functions.
Yeah, control your own elbow, crazy idea, huh Terence ? Thats the idea of VT , go figure that you arent even aware of that…
[QUOTE=Graham H;1041626]Terrence you are a p***k!!!
I’m happy with what my Teacher teaches me. Your idea of VT is pants!!![/QUOTE]
I’m sure you are – there are loads of people learning pure crap and are satisfied with what they are getting.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1041635]Yeah, control your own elbow, crazy idea, huh Terence ? Thats the idea of VT , go figure that you arent even aware of that…:D[/QUOTE]
If you want to learn how to position your elbow in punching and train it, then practice it with punching. Learn X, then practice X, then do X. Crazy idea, huh?
Your idea that everything is to train elbow position is silly – you don’t need to do fook sao to learn how to position your elbow when punching: you’ve already learned that when you learned the punch.
Hello,
Funny, I always thought of Fook as being used to sense the energy of the opponent. The variations, Jum, Jut etc were the applications based on what the opponenet gives us. So, really the position is used to sense what is needed and then provide the proper shape to “control” the incoming force.
However, in understanding the idea of control, keep in mind that sometimes you simply ride and re-direct what is given us. Not every opportunity allows us to punch in return.
Even the Kuit teaches that if one worries about hitting all of the time then one will be hit.
Trying to blindly hit someone just because their there is poor strategy, IMHO.
the fok sao IS a punch in chi- sao ! its constantly striking forwards against the tan strike EVERY rotation …elbows are aligned to drive the fist forwards .
we strike into openings as they happen , if the tan elbow position is bad …the tan is constantly punching into the fok sao…
each punching in a mutual exchange of force that requires hips and structure to back up this intense PUNCHING drill exchange
not a feeling/controlling drill …sensing is a by-product of the chi- sao drill not the reason for it.
if your using your wrist area to sense and feel / control …your playing a hand game…wristing.
subtle but profound difference in the type of fighter you evolve into.
each chi-sao partner strikes their partners opposite punch iow my jum [aka fok] is striking with structure/hips/elbows aligned against the partners opposite energy exchange of the structure/hips/elbow -tan strike
then we rotate and do the reverse I tan he fok/jum strikes
this develops rotating striking with each striking arm energy facing squarely, which further leads to entry and counter attacking in drills aimed at developing attacks that stay with movement to counter a line of force delivered by either partner…
iow the chi-sao stale mate in a basic jgkym stance is a starting point, not the goal to stand there and clinch…
once the explanations are made and strike exchanges shown you will NEVER want to use your wrists to parry offline again…defeating YOURSELF, never mind someone else in a fight.
Kevin,
We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
The Fook actually rides the opponents energy and transitions to whatever is needed. If the Fook were simply a punch then there would be no need to perform Jut or Jum. As WC is concerned with simplicity and economy of movement, what sense does it make to change into something else (Jut or Jum or whatever) prior to striking?
The elbow placement of a proper Fook will, by its inherent shape, occupy the line and act as a deflection to an incoming punch (in most cases). Therefore, by your reasoning, the line would already be open to strike and would not require the Jut/Jum etc.
In chi sao the above is shown over and over again as the punch/palm from taun will already have been deflected by the shape of the Fook. However, the returning punch is performed after the Jum or Jut is applied. This requires two distinct motions and different energies.
If you simply wanted to punch you could exercise the excluding and including punches both with and without turning. However, the Fook in and of itself is something different than a punch, imho.