well
mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control …with forward pressure…and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that…whats u thing 
[QUOTE=Steeeve;971411]well
mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control …with forward pressure…and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that…whats u thing :)[/QUOTE]
Simply: My Fuk Sau just protects my centreline. Wherever that may lay on my opponent’s arm is where it lays given that my own elbow positioning is on the mark.
Complex: It usually ends up somewhere between the wrist and the middle of the forearm on the opponent’s Tan Sau because when we roll, we don’t roll with wrist-to-wrist energy but elbow-to-elbow energy. You have to be careful, however, to not put the Fuk Sau too far up the arm (say, in the middle, where you’ve suggested) because you’ve already let your opponent hit you then.
[QUOTE=Steeeve;971411]well
mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control …with forward pressure…and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that…whats u thing :)[/QUOTE]
Its another variable in an infinitely variable exercise. If you want to position your fuk at the elbow of the arm that is in tan sao, then you can develop it that way.
Don’t forget about the wrist position, though… and don’t stop thinking of new ways to work through the concepts of your WC Chi sao is a training exercise and as such, it can and should be expressed in every logical way.
So if you want to start from a stronger position, if you want to start from a weaker position, if you want to start from as neutral a position as possible, or any variance, it all works something.
[QUOTE=Steeeve;971411]well
mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control …with forward pressure…and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that…whats u thing :)[/QUOTE]
in dan chi sao the fook wrist is resting near the tan wrist, this is due to the increased distance doing the drill is focused on elbow positions not impact [too far away].
Once you pass the redundant stages of dan chi , you step closer doing chi-sao / lok sao …etc[impact distance] and move past the wrist of each others outstretched arms …starting to use the previous actions but in single striking beats , not 1-2 as you did in the dan chi-sao…now its strike with deflection built in…tan strike energy versus jum energy, trying to use each to develop the other, leading to stalemate positions…strike is met by a counterstrike, not a ‘block’ …
then add entry from one side or the other , seung ma …angle counter strike, toi ma …randomly , producing natural attacking entry and angling fro left or right flanks…
add trapping, impact training when the hand is free…etc…all closer than dan chi sao, because you have to be able to be in impact/contact distance AS you are angling , striking etc…
Fok sao is a neutral ‘energy’ but centered elbow iow its hov ering around the centerline [elbow not wrist] ready to be jum [in] or tan [out] energy …jut energy…pak energy…all from the neutral centered elbow/arm. …We turn our stances only to face the direction we are attacking…
Doing strikes we use fok sao drills to recover back from extension…ie after we do a strike in dan chi across the partners lateral bong energy…we retract our arm as the partner momentarily leaves their bong up …we bring the elbows back to central area…this instills a rcovery in the arm / elbow after extension and deflection…we use it to recover back to the centerline ‘space’ not to stick to the raised arms etc…allowing trapping from overturned positions…
It is done low level in SLT for the idea to not lift the elbows , everything is to keep our elbows low in training.
[QUOTE=couch;971419]Simply: My Fuk Sau just protects my centreline. Wherever that may lay on my opponent’s arm is where it lays given that my own elbow positioning is on the mark.
Complex: It usually ends up somewhere between the wrist and the middle of the forearm on the opponent’s Tan Sau because when we roll, we don’t roll with wrist-to-wrist energy but elbow-to-elbow energy. You have to be careful, however, to not put the Fuk Sau too far up the arm (say, in the middle, where you’ve suggested) because you’ve already let your opponent hit you then.[/QUOTE]
perfect answer, centerline is the reference mark, where that lies on your partners bridge depends on his position in relation to yours. good and simple answer Couch, sound like you know your chi sao.
In a fight, it is wise to assume an oponent to be stronger than you are. That way no surprises in that area. A stronger arm is much easier to control from the wrist than from the upper forearm. Simple leverage. Besides, when you slide to the elbow his arm slides past and to your face. I think I would stick to the lower arm or wrist area.
chi-sao is a drill…not a pre-fighting position. we dont fight with 2 extended arms as the drill…man/vu
the drills reenforce the striking abiloity of each arm. to do this they must develop the ability to strike and deflect using the forearm area, simultaneously. 2 actions combined in each strike.
we use tan strike and jum strike cycling in chi-sao…
fok is just a neutral arm…in a drill , you dont fok in a fight, you use the actions that fook develops in your elbow/arm…relaxed centerline coverage.
the forearms of fok are in the same forearm area of the tan…you should be able to both contact the partner with fist and use forearms to deflect as you hit…
step away from the drill and each arm can do this idea while attacking in a cycling rotation…we only turn to face the angle of the opponents positions using one lead and one rear hand …so the attacking hands cant be stopped by lateral actions together if they where both extended out equally…
[QUOTE=Lee Chiang Po;972086]In a fight, it is wise to assume an oponent to be stronger than you are. That way no surprises in that area. A stronger arm is much easier to control from the wrist than from the upper forearm. Simple leverage. Besides, when you slide to the elbow his arm slides past and to your face. I think I would stick to the lower arm or wrist area.[/QUOTE]
If the opponent were simply an arm, that’d be the best way of going about it!
Unfortunately, control at the wrist of a person doesn’t give you much control at all.
And then there’s catching that wrist. Where it will go, nobody knows. I can throw a jab from an infinite number of angles, and retract my wrist to an infinite number of positions… but my elbow will always remain in the same general place, when I retract my punch.
Anyways, at the wrist you might have control over the arm, but at the elbow or upper forearm you have better control of the body.
[QUOTE=AdrianK;972105]If the opponent were simply an arm, that’d be the best way of going about it!
Unfortunately, control at the wrist of a person doesn’t give you much control at all.
And then there’s catching that wrist. Where it will go, nobody knows. I can throw a jab from an infinite number of angles, and retract my wrist to an infinite number of positions… but my elbow will always remain in the same general place, when I retract my punch.
Anyways, at the wrist you might have control over the arm, but at the elbow or upper forearm you have better control of the body.[/QUOTE]
Exactly. Never chase the hands - chase the man. Chasing a wrist is a bad idea. …but I get that other people do different things and I’m not worried about them. I’m just worried about me.
Best,
CTK
Adrian k and couch
thats whats i mean more control of the body at the middle forearm or near the elbow
the fuk in chi sao at the wrist let a a lot of chance to the partner to disengage because he could use his elbow joint if ur fuk is more near of the elbow u have better sensitivity
and control of the opponent body…
Let’s say i’m doing tan sao to your fuk sao and you gain position from wrist to the middle of the forearm (if i’m understanding you correctly)..
then i wouldn’t do tan sao or i wouldn’t do poon sao (assuming that’s what we’re doing). the situation has changed and i wouldn’t force poon sao on us or force tan sao back.
just go with the flow as they say…
[QUOTE=Steeeve;971411]well
mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control …with forward pressure…and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that…whats u thing :)[/QUOTE]
aarghh ! force tan sao back if fok does … what is tan sao ? a block in a chi-sao drill that goes forwards and back ? is fok sao a way to fight it :D…too funny.
your using tan ‘energy’ to displace your partners occupation of the centerline…he/she is using the opposite energy to develop occupation of their centerline with jum sao…[not wristing sao]…
so we get a drill with random reactions building to strike a strike with a strike …all thats missing is the reality of a face off as we see in pre-fighting…tactics, movement, positioning, mind games…your not going to fight a fok with a tan ! :o
or try to stand in a basic stance rolling with arms equally extended…that to us is a drilling position, allowing left or right sides to attack and counter, allowing the partners to react to left or right entry…and counter attack accordingly either side, so when a real fight ensues we can react to either SIDE with little or no thought to attacking …
If your chi-sao consists of fgacing but no seung ma -toi ma entry attacking and countering=movement and attack angles then your lost in the up and down rolling straight forwards and backwards world of ‘wasting time wing chun’ been there done that 
well
i dont talk about fighting here …just about the chi sau drills…
the positionning of the fuk sau …to the tan or bong …if my fuk is in the middle of ur forearm im more near of ur body and a little bit more extension of ur tan without loose the structure os the elbow 9one fist from my body…
if u force ur tan in poon sao the fuk could became a strike or i jam ur tan …the fuk at this position have a good wedge for attack or defense
sorry for my bad english:o
[QUOTE=AdrianK;972105]If the opponent were simply an arm, that’d be the best way of going about it!
Unfortunately, control at the wrist of a person doesn’t give you much control at all.
And then there’s catching that wrist. Where it will go, nobody knows. I can throw a jab from an infinite number of angles, and retract my wrist to an infinite number of positions… but my elbow will always remain in the same general place, when I retract my punch.
Anyways, at the wrist you might have control over the arm, but at the elbow or upper forearm you have better control of the body.[/QUOTE]
Well, now this is what I am talking about. It is not just an arm. Chi sao is a game really. In a serious fight you will not be crossing arms as such, but you will be trying like heck to keep from getting hit in the face. Or where ever. If you can control the elbow, that would be great. But in a rapid exchange of fists you are not likely to do that unless you just run in and smother the guy. Not always going to happen that way. If you try to extent to the elbow in such a rapid exchange of fists, you will be on the end of one sort of quickly.
The hard reality of it is chi sao is a drill between two WC guys. In the same reality, you are not likely to ever in this lifetime ever come up against another WC man on the street. Chi sao for him is something totally different. You can not do the same stuff in a real fight, not even close. It is like I have said before. You have to adapt your WC training to fight against other styles or systems. Or just against the common street fighter with no real trained fighting skills. This last one might be the most difficult to fight against sometimes.
My recommendation, leave the chi sao behind. It is going to get you into trouble. Do drills for real fighting, not hand rolling. It’s only real purpose is to give you a feel for your blocks, parries, and deflections. It is designed that you can share with a partner. You both take turns getting to practice your tan, fuk, bong. You do it over and over and over and you get to where you can apply it with ease and accuracy. This compitition thing is just silly. Use it for what it is designed for and train properly. In the meantime, good luck chasing the elbows.
LCP
[QUOTE=Steeeve;972579]well
i dont talk about fighting here …just about the chi sau drills…
the positionning of the fuk sau …to the tan or bong …if my fuk is in the middle of ur forearm im more near of ur body and a little bit more extension of ur tan without loose the structure os the elbow 9one fist from my body…
if u force ur tan in poon sao the fuk could became a strike or i jam ur tan …the fuk at this position have a good wedge for attack or defense
sorry for my bad english:o[/QUOTE]
fuk no wedge the elbows go in to avoid the wedge…the idea isnt to wedge yourself.
If your wrist is closer to the elbow wouldn’t that leave your self wedged out when you roll up to bong/fook allowing for them to just extend their bong arm and take the centerline?
Doesn’t this also at tan/fook leave your oponent in tan closer to you thus making it easier to hit you?? Not to mention how the tan drills as the fooks chisel so to speak thus creating a warped triangle if not causing yourself to get wedged out…
If I ask this question about the fuk position
couple years ago …a guy from the Tam Lai lineage show me to do the chi sao thats way…me too i never do it that way but thats could have some good stuff thats way:)
by wedge i mean to be able to cut to gain the centerline …intercept and attack in the same time …
Fook Sao (rides clings and controls)
The main key as far as the Woo Fai Ching system dealing with chi sao, is the fook sao…
If one cannot master the understanding or ideal dealing with the fook sao, then he or she will always have trouble dealing with double line sensitivity, because in the start of your chi sao studies the fook sao is always misunderstood…
Why? Because the fook sao do nothing but ride, control or cling to structure, and the other side or arm cycles from tan to bong; in other words that side have something to do, in which helps keeps the mind pre-occupied while almost losing the ideal or mechanics dealing with the fook sao…
Just master of try to understand the mechanics of the fook sao through total softness and forward sensitivity, then I’m sure you’ll find what you’re looking for…
The more one can control his fook sao through good forward sensitivity and line control, the softer and stronger his overall chi sao structure will become…
There is really no special way to use the fook as long if one is riding, clinging and controlling; it’s really simple if one just try to keep their structure and stay sunken with the ideal of chum.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CmqeObFVhhE fook sao in action mark 257.
In most cases; when done correctly your opponent wouldn’t feel the manipulation of defensive and offensive line control…
Ali Rahim.
Good topic…
Lots of confusion on this which there shouldn’t be..
Tan and Fook share the line in chisao, to start.
They connect in such a way not to control the other but to control the line, the space..
Each controls part of the line, in a balanced way, to start.
The wrist is the correct contact point on each, to start, in the rolling.
Perfect ChiSao is perfect balance between the two..each sharing half of the line. If both remain perfect then there is only the rolling..
The structure is made with the whole body including the elbow, but the contact point is at the wrists..because this offers perfect balance, to start.
Folks talk about controlling the tan, arm, fook, bong… But what you must seek to control is the line, to occupy it.. and finally align with it as you take it..
If and when you occupy the line and control IT with any tool you are training to fill that line or space with attack.. And that’s the point, ChiSao is the finger, not the moon.
The tools, fook and tan are not dead tools, they are very much alive. They are filled with energy, subtle though it may be, or not. Like compressed springs they store energy, potential energy for release when the space or line opens, it fires almost by itself the freed hand hits the line…
If you move your fook way up then all else being equal you have given up your space.. If you give up your space, the line, then Bang… You should have just got blasted…
The confusion is deeper…stop asking about the fok sao in chi-sao…ask what am I developing ? why use a wrist in drills when I wont in fighting…why train to make contact with a tan sao using a vu-sao wristing deflection ?
the chi-sao is a stage by stage developmental path to free fighting with 2 free hands…nothing to do with the wrists
The main culprit is when students are taught SLT, The beginning slow section has no jum sao, just a wristing Vu sao back then fook forwards, then Vu-sao back…common mistake made because the teacher didnt get the whole IDEA
No Jum sao= inwards elbow/inwards forearm striking energy position for drilling later…
missing
iow..the tan goes out , turns to huen as the elbow contracts inwards to make an ENERGY = jum sao [you cant see this ENERGY / contraction , it has to be explained by someone who knows]. You contract the shoulder girdle to hold the elbow low and in while seeing only one finger in the hand…contraction held for 2 seconds , then the fingers come up and the elbow relaxes to make the VU-sao to come back …repeat 3 times for significance/importance…
IOW many MISS the jum sao altogether assuming it is a wristing action of the vu fingers pointing up from SLT…wrong…not the vusao, but the missing jum-sao..MISSING,MISSING,MISSING…
You need the JUM & TAN to develop into partners of energy…
JUM =inwards elbow ~ TAN sao = elbow spreads off the line
so regardless of what flank you attack from you have 2 arms in rotation each covering the line from the given side…iow one strike will use outside energy /alignment while striking to stop entry to you..the following strike will take over with inwards energy to close down the same side…
the tut sao or shaving hands teaches seamless line control , so nothing can enter the centerline…
why 2 energies from the same arms ? why have a strike that can both keep an elbow on the line and spread it off the line while each hits forwards ON THE LINE with little or no thought to the changing energy…?
The forearms act as deflection surfaces from the acute angle the inwards elbows create.
they utilize explosive force ‘ging’ and recover back to the centerline in fast repetitive strikes capable of changing the energy in each arm , relative to the positions and angles you and yur opponent take…motion, fighting for positions…
Your VT idea tactically is to deliver more attacking actions than the opponent in any given time period…so hitting is good but how can you get an edge on the guy when he also has 2 arms hitting you ? angling and using the extended striking arm in a 2/dual action strike= economy of motion…either arm can use the inwards or outwards energy to maintain line integrity , while striking out…facing and angling …the energy of the striking arms changing …you cant see this energy…you have to have it explained in the dan chi-sao…chi-sao so you dont make the mistake of adopting a wristing, feeling, controlling, hand chasing, waste of time
If the arm is intercepted we use the contact strike drills from our training…the arms are used to contact so they dont lose their elbow angles ability to stay on target…simple.
If you do use the wrists your TO FAR AWAY FROM THE TARGET TO HIT IT
AND IMPOSSIBLE TO DEVELOP SIMULTANEOUS STRIKE DEFLECTIONS unless you always use 2 extended arms to fight the opponents 1…think about it, your training to use 2 hands constantly against one…? while standing in front of them so they can wail on you ? really
with inwards/outwards elbow/forearm controlled strikes you can control entry to your self by simply ..angling to face…either side , move to gain angles allowing the idea to function… with either lead arm…while striking fast and not stopping to over trap because you lack the basic striking development stages…missing from your curriculum
completely…
Instead you try to make the system function with a tan that is thrown out to the shoulder, the outside upper gate..etc…to block while the striking arm is just a fist or a palm or a finger jab…iow you NEED 2 hands …always…because you lack a tactical idea you adopt the drill positions for the safety blanket of control you get that goes out the window asa you try free fighting
~
The common MISTAKE made by many students, is to use the wrists as force connections/feelers in a drill …this leads you to become a seeker of arms to feel and control before hitting…before hitting…before hitting…
Striking with arms capable of utilizing deflection & strike in the same beat is the aim…
EACH arm trained through the drills to encompass line closure/protection, while striking out to the target before them…in rotation, angling for attack angles and moving to face a moving target…
Sadly the drill has been so watered down by teachers with little or no contact to the source…
the wrist is isolated from the strike drills and not used as a deflection simply because it takes you striking arm away from the target…it is ingraining the wrists movement and force out at the end of the arm …creating a long lever that also crosses the strike/centerline, due to the nature of the wrists looking for the contact .
there are 2 stages of distance in chi-sao …one is the introduction of strikes using opposite forces daan chi sao…you are out of striking range..developing elbow energy and alignment …just like SLT positions..so you are using the form in isolated actions…jum versus tan energy..one is trying to displace the other while staying on line to the center…drilling a relationship only relative to YOU and your elbow on your line …for use when advancing to later stages involving motion and angling…so you dont lose you aim and go off target by simply touching the guys energy in his arms…
energy can be misinterpreted to be chi/qi for lack of relativity to VT..iow the energy we are developing is SPECIFIC to our goals …attacking etc…attack/defense simultaneously…tactical motion…
The Little Idea in SLT isnt how to develop your wrists feeling …fok is NO ENERGY in the elbow iow neither jum or tan energy…you cant have energy constantly in the elbow so fok is the ‘off switch’ in the drill to make our arms go limp but still hold the elbow centered without having tan or jum energy flowing into it…or recovering a extended strike back to neutral energy fok sao…
fok = no elbow energy for drilling…its wrist positions is redundant…in chi-sao the fook is resting on the forearm of the partner becasu you are now in contact distances…trying to both strike and use elbow positions together…in one striking action…jum elbow in strikes keeping tan attempt to make your elbow go out so it caan displace as it strikes …
one strike attacks another strike… strike v strike…no I strike responded by a block then a strike…ingrained a 10000 times…
If in chi-sao one of you is doing a tan attack and the other reponds with a wrist block its wrong …
you should be striking the attack with a counter strike…if not , where is the simultaneous action…
maybe its lost in structure gobeldygook…pointing tan to a shoulder while the wrist defelcts , to far to hit the guy tannin into you…over and over and over…so when are you going to develop hitting a guy stepping into you ? answer your not, your going to do all kinds of structure drills, fancy chi-sao stuff etc…
why because the idea has been made into various levels of $ making… stages/belts/grades/certificates : )