Here’s a clip for the recent MD Chi Sau seminar
Chi Sau forward intent
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J2ZwYDbSK1k
This clip wasn’t from the seminar but was from class in NJ.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zfOfpdn75RA
Here’s some Dan Chi Sau
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6VUuW4mdizQ
And some “Et Cetera”
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dg0nSAOpQ8A
Tan and Wu
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1WLJRGA3_4
It’s raining and I’m inside so excuse my video “rant” 
Interesting stuff although I am surprised at how different our lineages are. Your main focus is the wrist and ours is the elbow. By using the elbow in the way we do it allows us to attack and clear the way for the punch simultaneously. Two tools using one arm. With the wrist contact this would not be possible and would need two actions using one arm. My thinking on Ving Tsun sees that as an error. An error for my system that is. I also was a bit surprised how high the dummy was. Thats always the case with “wristy” systems. Our dummy sits a lot lower so we can use the arms as reference for the elbow and also teaches one not to flap the elbows about in fighting. This idea is everywhere in our forms an serves as a means of correction. Another big error in my lineage is pressing with Bong Sau but in your system its advocated.
Its very interesting how our lineage is for correcting errors that in yours are everywhere.
In our system Dan Chi is for correcting the error of using the wrist amongst other things yet your wrist seems to be locked to your students wrist.
As you know in our system Tan Sau and Fook Sau are concepts and methods for training and developing the correct way of punching. Many systems use Tan Sau to block and Fook Sau to move arms about. Its a massive faux pas in my lineage.
I’m not saying yours is any less effective in any way but the differences are so huge and yet our line to Yip Man is very close.
Hope its stopped raining LOL
GH
[QUOTE=Graham H;1081755]Interesting stuff although I am surprised at how different our lineages are. Your main focus is the wrist and ours is the elbow. By using the elbow in the way we do it allows us to attack and clear the way for the punch simultaneously. Two tools using one arm. With the wrist contact this would not be possible and would need two actions using one arm. . . . .
GH[/QUOTE]
I would never said our main focus is in the wrist. I said you use the wrist to move the arm and the elbow to control the arm. You use the wrist on the dummy.
Also our dummy is the way Yip Man designed it since the original plans for the first HK dummy were given the Cheung King Kong, William Cheung’s older brother.
http://web.archive.org/web/20060717012604/www.springtimesong.com/wcforms4woodendummy.htm
I understand where you’re coming from having studied the “mainstream” WC for 13 years. I was even a Sifu before I studied TWC. It’s all good. I just prefer what I do now since it’s worked for me in full contact events. Most fighters are headhunters so I teach to cover the head. Which is wrong and which is right depends of the fighter. I know people from outside my lineage that i wouldn’t want to tangle with. That lineage superiority thing is moot to me. If you compete against people outside of your school you’ll find what works for you and what doesn’t.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1081758]If you compete against people outside of your school you’ll find what works for you and what doesn’t.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree!!! 
GH
Here’s something I was taught by at least 5 of the WC Sifus I studied with over the last 40 years.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mJnu80hM4wE
Ok, in our system the dummy does NOT represent human arms. The level and the angle of the “limbs” are important and are purely for training the correct behaviour of the elbow. Even though in some actions the wrist does touch the dummy limb, the action is from the elbow and we have to consider that the dummy is fixed therefore some actions like huen sau are not performed as they are on a human who’s limbs move. The dummy looks as though it has human form hence the name “wooden man” but it is not a man. The dummy has evolved so that the practitioner can hone the correct behaviour of the body. It increases the special “shock” force needed and also contains some ideas of recovery and the correction of natural errors that humans tend to make in fighting and when a lot of speed and force are used. The dummy defines limits!!!
In previous lineages I have been taught that the arms represent human limbs etc etc but when I met my instructor many unanswered questions were answered and gaps filled in. For once everything fitted and clicked together.
Anyway these are just words but it is evident that Wing Chun is a very generic term these days.
GH
On the dummy our thinking uses the elbow &wrists as alignment points, like front sight , rear sight.
the wrists arent moving off the target, neither are the
fists/palms.
the dummy is simply reinforcing the unity of SLT & CK , aligned striking with tactical,mobile, facing movement of bodyweight and aligmmemt of cycling actions we repeat while firing along with other ideas…
[QUOTE=Graham H;1081766]Ok, in our system the dummy does NOT represent human arms. The level and the angle of the “limbs” are important and are purely for training the correct behaviour of the elbow. Even though in some actions the wrist does touch the dummy limb, the action is from the elbow and we have to consider that the dummy is fixed therefore some actions like huen sau are not performed as they are on a human who’s limbs move. The dummy looks as though it has human form hence the name “wooden man” but it is not a man. The dummy has evolved so that the practitioner can hone the correct behaviour of the body. It increases the special “shock” force needed and also contains some ideas of recovery and the correction of natural errors that humans tend to make in fighting and when a lot of speed and force are used. The dummy defines limits!!!
In previous lineages I have been taught that the arms represent human limbs etc etc but when I met my instructor many unanswered questions were answered and gaps filled in. For once everything fitted and clicked together.
Anyway these are just words but it is evident that Wing Chun is a very generic term these days.
GH[/QUOTE]
If you’re satisfied with your teachings and they make sense to you that’s all that should matter. Right my friend?
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1081787]If you’re satisfied with your teachings and they make sense to you that’s all that should matter. Right my friend?[/QUOTE]
Right.
Always presenting interesting and educational videos, Redmond sifu. I enjoyed these quite so.
really liked the first video, good explaination with potential forward force. really liked the bong stuff.
question is hoon sao is an elbow movement then why do you do it on a thing that doesn’t move therefore practicing what you don’t want to do.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1081854]really liked the first video, good explaination with potential forward force. really liked the bong stuff.
question is hoon sao is an elbow movement then why do you do it on a thing that doesn’t move therefore practicing what you don’t want to do.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, Around :53 there are two Huen Saus to the wrist. There is no way he would Huen at the elbow from the inside here.
After the Jut Saus here: 1:00 he Huens at the wrist. No one would Jut at the elbow and Huen at the elbow. I’d like to add that although there are slight various differences among students of Yip Man. I did the WC most people do for 13 years. I had the same questions and disbelief when I first saw TWC. My first reactions were that it was wrong, it’s not WC and what the heck are they doing? OMT would you Huen to the elbow from the inside???
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=581N17XHmq0
[QUOTE=Violent Designs;1081852]Always presenting interesting and educational videos, Redmond sifu. I enjoyed these quite so.[/QUOTE]
Thanks, I keep on TWChunning even though I’m outnumbered . . .lol
the ‘potential’ forward force, this is simply drilling elbow spreading of tan striking against the countering inward elbow jum strike, ergo guys get a vague idea about forward energy without a specific goal of developing striking . We use each other in chi-sao to strike our opposite elbow point…as we rotate we do tan v jum then rotate jum v tan iow each partner is using a strike with outside forearm [tan] v inside forearm [aka fook/jum] each fighter using both arms one outside line [tan] one inside line [aka fook/jum]…when you have this explained and feel the foolish wrist ideas ..theres no going back btw the fook wrist is floppy relaxed because your developing the jums punching ELBOW, you make a fist when the arm is free to hit. Same as Tan we make a fist or palm to hit out of the tans elbow starting point to spread out from and back to the centerline…
When you enter the dummy sides we do it with tan and jum [sidepalms make elbows in] reason being we dont know which will be striking in the lead, tan ? jum, so we train the same idea as chi-sao , each is aligned towards the target, not a move with a high tan block and a low palm strike funny how many make it a floating rib attack .
time spent training in vt is no guarantee you will have met this idea …even those exposed to it get confused and treat chi-sao as a game of tag and ego’s and start losing the sophisticated ideas for chi-sao trap happy games. leading them further into seeking answers in redundant drills…size and strength mean little unless your aligning your force in controlled development, iow big muscle dont work with VT. BUT ‘Aligned’ big muscle is scary !! It made me realize why YM being so relatively short/small frame could do what he could…its not about size and strength…
dynamic iso-kinetics, iow to use each other with constant forward striking energy in a constant exchange, no elbows out , low, wristing…not easy. The basic stance becomes paramount in maintaining the integrity of the drills intensity, hips get forced forwards to fight the urge to move back or allow wrists to displace striking force, a bozo no-no [yeah Im that old :D]
If you strike further up on the forearms against each others punching elbow force you create an intense equilibrium of energy exchange, backed up by hips ,shoulders, legs , stance…very intense when done correctly, not so if you use wrists, waste of time with wristing, been there done that. we add movement, angling to tactical entry , etc…and more
When you meet this fighting you understand…doing chi-sao is too similar in redundant arm extension drills…fighting will make you aware of the value of a centerline occupied with aligned strikes that develop the mindless/mushin goal we are after…no thinking , just intuitive reactions, tactically etc…Im still training hard ! As WSL the man himself once told me as we walked alone to his car…its humbling to experience this method from someone who has mastered it.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1081860] . . btw the fook wrist is floppy relaxed because your developing the jums punching ELBOW, . ..[/QUOTE]
We differ here. The Chinese used terms to express the type of movement or energy used. Fuhk means control. A floppy Fuhk doesn’t control and can be exploited easily. I know that from experience. But as I always say. Each to his own. Also time in the art is no guarantee of skill or knowledge. Fighting/competing against Martial Artists outside of you school is a better gauge. There is no other way to know if fighting theories will work in the real world. I respect most opinions but I respect the opinions of fighters over those who have not.
WSL http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wAqPPA8eK7w
:15 Jut at wrist
:28 Double Jut at wrist
:38 Gan at wrist
:45 Jut Huen at wrist
:51 bong at wrist
Chu Shong Tin http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=B4rDLWIddaU
:10 Huen at wrist
:18 Bong at wrist
A Huen Sau can be at the elbow or wrist.
We dont control the opponents wrists with fook sao, we control OUR OWN elbow positions.
Yes it means control, but …controlling my alignment, not to ‘latch’ onto an arm with a hook …
We use the inward elbow and floppy fook wrist a lot to isolate the action to the ELBOW. An example of this is when we do angling steps in role playing to a tan step in…we respond by moving to the optimal counter-striking angle allowing us to face and fire, before the partner has even re-faced us…in this ‘moment’ i use the jum inward elbow strike while being able to slap the chest of the partner with a floppy hand, stances are also checked to make sure of aligned hips, ju-ying facing etc…like a bull v bull fighter, vt is both roles.
Theres a lot of complying actions to help each other rather than turn it into a kill you first thing. No death matches ! just isolating moments that flow later and are used in free fighting.
When we meet I will show you, you will like it. In some ways TWC does things we do too, but I dont claim to know it to your depth. Not surprising really given all came from the same tree…I have met students from P Bayer who are also confused by the levels they have, so its easy to see that even the same source cannot guarantee anything in terms of understanding. My students too, some I think understand ME , prove me wrong in impromptu Q & A sessions…go figure ~!:D:D
you have to feeeel .
saw your edit…ah yes, but what controls the wrist…ELBOW.
jut is done by contracting and retracting the elbow to your centerline…the wrist makes contact becasue its the point that the opponets arm will meet it, along with our forearms, held in by ELBOWS…
double jut is controlled by elbows to striking ..intercepted fist makes a jut & strike
gaun is about returning elbows in back to tan as SLT : tan >Gaun sao> tan,tan gaun tan, hit block hit…hit with elbows in block low bring elbow back in and wrist aligned to strike with bodyweight behind it…same sequence is done on the dummy often…using the dummy arm as a ging point and alignment elbows in wrists/forearms making contact.
jut lowering huen at wrist but the elbow is being held in tightly as the hues sao turns or it wont work on a rigid arm with force , like a real strike at my ribs.
bong wrist X’s the centerline sightly to displace wrong force applied to it…iow if you push with a wrist on my bong it will move it sideways enough for my wu to make a strike in the ensuing gap made…
I saw things i wanted to see to relate to my old sifu V Kan, but when you are told and shown its different from what we see…you will be like me…I used to think i did what WSL did.
As for TST, he has his own ideas. elbows WAY out , he does chi-sao more like he is holding a big beaqch ball inside his arms and just uses this rolling arms to prevent entry to him in CHI-SAO..ie not fighting with strikes…
But you can judge for your self. Philipp explained the system as all about controlling our elbows. Ergo all of the elbows in doing the SLT to introduce us to this new idea, we never hold our elbows in like this during our daily lives…except when we do VT !
why is the elbow of the fook held in so tightly ?
why when doing tan huen jum in SLT does the elbow /arm/wrist not move off the line ?
Why does the elbow move back to the centerline doing wu sao to fook sao ? defensive position to strike from [wu] to elbow back in striking as it sweeps the central lane of anything that might be coming at me, with wrist floppy iow all about elbow controll at high speeds in chaotic fighting scenarios.
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1081865]
When we meet I will show you, you will like it. . .[/QUOTE]
Having done your WC before I hope so.
I’ve already talked to two WT Sifus about doing a Friendship “Gathering” in NYC. (I got permission fro Marty Goldberg to use the term).
I think a friendly meeting of Wing Chun Sifus will promote good will and respect for our differences.
There are good and bad practitioners in all lineages.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1081867]Having done your WC before I hope so.
I’ve already talked to two WT Sifus about doing a Friendship “Gathering” in NYC. (I got permission fro Marty Goldberg to use the term).
I think a friendly meeting of Wing Chun Sifus will promote good will and respect for our differences.
There are good and bad practitioners in all lineages. ;)[/QUOTE]
Fighting has a lot to do with individual talent and skill.
And hard work, courage, determination, of course.
A number of factors.
Your “style” should NOT be a factor in creating a good fighter, but unfortunately this is the case, simply because of crappy training methodologies some teachers use, and very good ones in other “styles.”