chi sao fuk sao position

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
21

[QUOTE=k gledhill;982629]
If you do use the wrists your TO FAR AWAY FROM THE TARGET TO HIT IT :smiley:
AND IMPOSSIBLE TO DEVELOP SIMULTANEOUS STRIKE DEFLECTIONS unless you always use 2 extended arms to fight the opponents 1…think about it, your training to use 2 hands constantly against one…? while standing in front of them so they can wail on you ? really :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

LukSao is properly done with the contact point at the wrists.. (not the elbows) LOL

As I said, this is but a beginning point and allows for a balanced starting position WRT the line for each partner–it is a starting point and no it doesn’t normally mean your are already all the way inside.. Nor does it mean you control the line, you have to get there, you’re training to take position, POSITION, occupy the line, use the timing to get there, the energy to keep you there and finally release it once there…

Who, what or where does the LukSao imply one must stand in the front door when applying a technique and having taken the line..? It doesn’t.. We move the line, we move our body, that’s all part of the problems to solve and skills that are cultivated, we don’t start at the end, we start at a beginning.. The expression of techniques later is apart from the original question, and goes beyond LukSao and this question relates entirely to initial starting positions and LukSao..

The hands work together.. When one encounters an obstruction (in fighting or not), that obstruction must be removed to continue..and gee you may have to step closer, or even follow them yes–hard to believe… This may well involve using two hands against one and no, not normally standing in front of them..we flank.. Not that this has anything to do with the initial issue of LS either..

If your tool has position and theirs does not they get blasted by that single tool, rinse repeat (fansao).. The high pressure water hose, he moves his offline and I don’t = he gets soaked..

The techniques in chisao are the techniques we all know for the most part, some simple, some less so, most with more than one expression, some with more than one hand at once–all require fansao..

How do you do/teach luksao with contact @ where?

22

developing elbows …:wink: you keep developing those wrists :smiley:

23

it’s not elbows or wrists. It’s the centerline.

24

[QUOTE=Steeeve;971411]well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control …with forward pressure…and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that…whats u thing :)[/QUOTE]

It think it depends on the situation ( pressure from the other guys). I don’t always use forward pressure with the fok sao. I use it more as a sweeping motion to open up the line whether it’s at the wrist or closer to the elbow. each positions whether fok or other hand has advantage’s and disadvantages.

25

[QUOTE=k gledhill;982968]developing elbows …:wink: you keep developing those wrists :D[/QUOTE]

I haven’t seen anyone advocate “developing wrists”… which makes the above what is called a straw man argument (fallacy)…

Some folks are perpetuating the idea that because wrist to wrist contact is advised (in luk sao) that somehow this means those same folks also advocate some kind of “wrist development” or wrist emphasis in application.. This is completely false.

My guess is that some of the “elbow folks” don’t advocate the use of luk sao which, if so would be completely outside the normal system of training ChiSao…

26

[QUOTE=punchdrunk;982972]it’s not elbows or wrists. It’s the centerline.[/QUOTE]

Well yes and no..

We must occupy the line with something.. Normally we might say structure.. Part of that structure involves wrist and elbows… Connect the two and you have a bridge.

The alignment of the wrist and elbow wrt the line in LukSao tells part of the story.

27

Its Colonel Mustard in the library with the kitchen knife !:smiley: you guys are too funny…

its this …wait no its that, no its the CENTERLINE :D:D

your developing a strike, punching …chi-sao is redundant in fighting …its a stage a process…looking for answers in the actual drill positions shows more than words can :wink:

28

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983010]Its Colonel Mustard in the library with the kitchen knife !:smiley: you guys are too funny…

its this …wait no its that, no its the CENTERLINE :D:D

your developing a strike, punching …chi-sao is redundant in fighting …its a stage a process…looking for answers in the actual drill positions shows more than words can ;)[/QUOTE]

Ignoring what is/isn’t correct positioning is, re something that relies on positioning, says yet something else..

And while you’re in the kitchen please make me a sandwich..

29

I thought I was hard to understand…:smiley: whatever …

the system involves a process, some times the stages are redundant …like dan chi-sao being a 2 beat elbow/strike action, later becoming a single strike action with the now inbuilt 2nd action…economizing a strike to incorporate deflective angles from acute elbow angles , pre-delivery of strikes…

impact and alignment drills are further developed in 2 handed chi-sao ..for natural ability to fight either side equally …striking with the same actions being developed…

in fighting we dont adopt the 2 extended arms as the drills…why ? easy to get trapped, we dont adopt the same square on stance because we now have a face off to use the drills by products…ability to respond to either side of the attacker, using our developed striking from the previous stages…

chi-sao is overplayed and the development lost to wrist force, fook sao energy bs, bong on the line hand dropping blah blah…block with downward wrist actions then hiting 2 beats..turning the stance to re-direct force :smiley: or leaning back to avoid it :D:D…play a control game with hands because the arms never learned to be the second set of hands in each arm…achieved by simple angulations to incoming lines of force…

mines tuna fish thanks ! hah

30

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983016]I thought I was hard to understand…:smiley: whatever …

the system involves a process, some times the stages are redundant …like dan chi-sao being a 2 beat elbow/strike action, later becoming a single strike action with the now inbuilt 2nd action…economizing a strike to incorporate deflective angles from acute elbow angles , pre-delivery of strikes…

impact and alignment drills are further developed in 2 handed chi-sao ..for natural ability to fight either side equally …striking with the same actions being developed…

in fighting we dont adopt the 2 extended arms as the drills…why ? easy to get trapped, we dont adopt the same square on stance because we now have a face off to use the drills by products…ability to respond to either side of the attacker, using our developed striking from the previous stages…

chi-sao is overplayed and the development lost to wrist force, fook sao energy bs, bong on the line hand dropping blah blah…block with downward wrist actions then hiting 2 beats..turning the stance to re-direct force :smiley: or leaning back to avoid it :D:D…play a control game with hands because the arms never learned to be the second set of hands in each arm…achieved by simple angulations to incoming lines of force…

mines tuna fish thanks ! hah[/QUOTE]

I agree with most of what you normally say… Like the above..

However, I want to be clear that wrist to wrist contact in LukSao does not contradict same.

Wrist as an initial contact point does not, nor should it, mean other things, like to “control” with the wrist..

BTW: Kevin, do you teach/use LukSao in your program?

31

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983016]
block with downward wrist actions then hiting 2 beats..
[/quote]

This may well be a fail safe..or useful (jut) depending on the conditions, we ain’t perfect, and jut has it’s uses.

However, the real action at work here should be and is that AS the wrist opens and the arm becomes level/aligned (jut-open to jum-forearm displaces) that the tool becomes a strike (da) and happens in a single beat/action…dependent on position and energy the very fabric of the training…

The forward pressure (spring energy) causes such alignment and the ability to strike/displace in one action that is a combination of what is seen esp by beginners as two separate actions..

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983016]
mines tuna fish thanks ! hah
[/QUOTE]

Nice! Can I have mine on a bagel? :smiley:

32

jut is an action from dropping the elbow not dropping the wrists…AFTER an attempted strike is intercepted..
jut allows the arm to stay in alignment to the target even if contact is lost…no wandering as a wrist deflection would if missed…

strike first jut later…develop striking first dan chi-sai…jut comes in chi-sao later as drills not with wrists either :smiley:

wrists take you off line to be attacking..it involves a defensive deflection not an attacking action

33

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983048]
jut is an action from dropping the elbow not dropping the wrists…AFTER an attempted strike is intercepted..
[/quote]
How does one drop an elbow? The elbow is essentially ‘immovable’…as it occupies the line.

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983048]
jut allows the arm to stay in alignment to the target even if contact is lost…no wandering as a wrist deflection would if missed…
[/quote]
Not dropping the wrist–opening the wrist–drops the forearm… Causing the bridge to displace the incoming—supported by the elbow…

Were talking from luksao here..or at least I am as this question was from the rolling..

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983048]
wrists take you off line to be attacking..it involves a defensive deflection not an attacking action[/QUOTE]

The wrist OPENING causes bridge alignment, meaning it takes fook (high hand) sharing the line with a bent wrist with tan to become straight (flat/drop)…(jum) and occupy/take the line just AS the strike fires…

How does fook become a successful punch against tan?

It’s not that complicated and it’s the same dynamic that answers the question–when can the fook hand convert and strike? There is no lateral energy coming from the wrist..the wrist simply OPENS..distends.. This will/should also happen if their tan drops too low.. KK–(the attacking hand defends)

You seem to read what is written but infer what you want to..and then assign your own meaning to it..

Do you, or do you not teach/do/use LukSao in your program???

34

…drop the elbow because you just extended the arm to strike…creating a bridge…dropping the elbow/forearm 2-3" to control and jerk the arm down…if you use the wrist you can take yourself off-line …lose strike ability for chasing the bridge with wrist force

tan is a pre-strike position for us…we use jum sao strikes to develop the equal and opposite energy for strike development…fok is the jut in rest mode during the drill…

in chi-sao drills, either tan strike [elbow spreads off the line] or jum strike [ elbow stays on the line] are used against each other facing each other square to start with so the energy and alignment of each VT fighters strikes has a source of counter force to develop against… 2 strikes are rolling in chi-sao the tan & Jum FOK IS THE JUM SAO IN REST MODE …you cant have inwards elbow energy constantly :smiley: sooo we have a neutral arm/elbow for reclaiming the elbow with no stimulus …idling like a bus at the bus stop FOR DRILLS WE DO…

SO we have a tan on the inside of the fok,the tan is resting until it strikes, the elbow of the tan then leaving the line as the hand goes along the strike path…the fok senses the strike and brings the elbow inwards to hold the line from being entered AS IT STRIKE FORWARDS thus developing a striking actiong to counter a striking attack…Either jumor tan strike can initiate …so each responds with a counter attack or starts by attacking randomly from either side …left or right..preparing us for shifting and facing one or the other sides of the attacker when freefighting..never facing square in the center with 2 extended arms…but shifting and keeping a lead and a rear hand [ man ~vu] using angling and facing shifts subtly to strike the guy using the energies developed in the drills…

the partner hands jut da…pak da…gum..etc… are all available to us as well, but used as a way to recover the ability to simply strike with 2 free hands from blind sides…

once the arms get developed this way they occupy the centerline naturally as they strike and re-cycle to strike…not requiring the arms to open up on the line so one is doing a chasing block leaving one arm to tend the line …

I used to do what you do…for a long time …all wrong:D

imagine this…the lateral force of the arms <-> or <-> is combined with the forwards force ^ of each arm, making an arm have simultaneous 2 energies, economy of motion, intercepting fists.

the jum sao energy is the inwards force along the centerline..the forearm slides along the centerline keeping the inside of this imaginary line occupied ..until its in its final stages of hitting to extension…thats one energy of the arm controlled by contractions of the pecs and lats to hold the upper arm /elbow inwards…SLT… force going in for either arm left or right > or <

the tan energy is the outwards force < or > the forearm slides along the line the ELBOW leaving it to spread away [not the hand] so it will displace any arm outwards that is outside its trajectory..follow…this starting point of the tan is also controlled by the same pec/lats, only yhe energy of tha rm changes…no physical movement off the line as a block…the tan in chi-sao uses a vertical palm allowing us to hit but not damage…the vertical palm is making the elbow spread outwards …the jum strike in chi-sao is fighting this energy with its inwards strike…
good partners with equal energy skills will stale mate a lot…bad elbows open elbows or wrist chasing will be easily hit to show mistakes, rather than random hitting to hit each other…

so if you combine the tan energy using the left arm it is making < ^ the right jum <^ each can attack an attacker from his left lead arm shutting entry to your centerline down as you simply attack him with little thought to your defense , becasue the strikes are doing it for you…angling

the the right tan is this energy ^> Left jum ^>

by facing using turning the body only to face the correct angles we can simply shift the energy of the arms instantly back and forth without them ever seeming to be doing anything but chain punching…

The system is devoted to this simple idea…

35

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983208]
…drop the elbow because you just extended the arm to strike…creating a bridge…dropping the elbow/forearm 2-3" to control and jerk the arm down…if you use the wrist you can take yourself off-line …lose strike ability for chasing the bridge with wrist force
[/quote]

In order for fook to convert to jum or for it to convert to punch the wrist must open or distend, it’s the only way a fook can change to a punch… The forearm drops or alignes with the center… (this also displaces and takes the line) Unless you plan on striking with a bent wrist, as in fook, the wrist must open, it’s that simple and illustrates the folly of denying it..

So clearly there is some kind of disconnect going on here communication wise.. Most of what you just wrote I find unclear at best…and again you appear to infer your own meaning (what you use to do) onto what I and others write..

Why don’t you answer the simple question I have asked three times?

Do you use/teach LukSao?

36

you seem to place all the emphasis on making a fist :smiley: from fook hand …YES YOU MAKE A FIST but in fighting you have a man sao fingers point to target ..no ? or do you fok sao in sparring then make fist ?

your trying to make the fook the idea…its just a simple neutral position..no energy in the wrist makes it floppy, it hangs down over the tan because there is no energy in the wrist…when you strike you make a fist as you bring the elbow in and strike in one smooth action…drilling.

do you know what lok sao is for ? is my question:D

37

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983241]
you seem to place all the emphasis on making a fist :smiley: from fook hand …
[/quote]
Right!!!

Because this bloody thread was about luksao and chisao, in fact specifically fook and tan…used in the rolling as a starting point..

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983241]
do you know what lok sao is for ? is my question:D
[/QUOTE]

Yes, do you know how to answer a simple question in English? Or are you hiding something? :smiley:

38

Fuhk sao example

http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi
I know most people use a fuhk/fook with the fingers level to the floor like I did for years. Now I do it with the fingers pointing to the floor just like a canine does when it sits up with it’s paws hanging down. Now what does that have to do with the character fuhk/control/subdue? :wink:

39

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;983272]http://www.wingchunkwoon.com/woodchi.asp#chi
I know most people use a fuhk/fook with the fingers level to the floor like I did for years. Now I do it with the fingers pointing to the floor just like a canine does when it sits up with it’s paws hanging down. Now what does that have to do with the character fuhk/control/subdue? ;)[/QUOTE]

Hi Phil,

You mean the way fook is done in SLT? Was how you used to do it?

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGlFuIlBUA4

Moy changed fook in ChiSao to a position where the palm is in more contact with the forearm years later..

40

[QUOTE=YungChun;983257]Right!!!

Because this bloody thread was about luksao and chisao, in fact specifically fook and tan…used in the rolling as a starting point..

Yes, do you know how to answer a simple question in English? Or are you hiding something? :D[/QUOTE]

Its hard to answer when you wont understand what I’m trying to explain…