chi sao fuk sao position

[QUOTE=Steeeve;971411]well

mostly every WC guy position their fuk sao to the tan sao wrist ,
now whats about position your fuk to the middle arm of the tan sao
more control …with forward pressure…and you nullify the bong sao if u want
i just ask about that…whats u thing :)[/QUOTE]

thats because mostly every WC guy is using wrist energy to wrist energy in an incorrectly applied drill…leading to hand chasing, over trapping etc…common.

VT is striking…

The distances of dan chi-sao drills are greater than chi-sao lok sao drills due to the impact using contact with the partner not being introduced yet…the dan chi-sao is about learning to use the alignment of your strikes to do multiple tasks , iow, strike and use the arm positions along the centerline to be a defensive position.

So the initial contact area will be wrists to wrists but that doesnt matter , what matters is that you dont use the wrists to deliver the energy of the deflections…you are far enough away that you wont hit each other if the guys bong is slow etc…impact comes from moving closer in the more advanced stages of training…

Dan chi-sao becomes redundant after doing it as a learning curve, iow you no longer adopt the further distances of wrist /wrist contact points…and no longer do 2 beat strikes …thats an introductory level for alignment of wrists and elbows for striking with later in fighting…
the strikes go from 2 beats in dan chi to 1 beat with 2 actions per strike per arm…for fighting later.

The idea that your feeling with the wrists and rolling the energy is completely wrong, its an idea developed by those with little understanding of the process for fighting…

Jum sao comes from the resting fok sao…so fok sao is really just a neutral arm position for the WC drill…

You have a fok sao ( neutral elbow) resting on the tan ( outwards elbow strike )because the stimulus/signal to do jum sao (inwards elbow strike ) isnt being sent…

the signal is tan attempting to strike forwards , when the arm feels the signal the fok stops resting and disappears altogether because it is now a pre-strike position for inwards elbow training …iow its no longer fok because you have ENERGY in the arm

regarding the fok position after doing dan chi and moving closer doing lok sao etc…:
If you are close enough to use both the elbow idea in development and strike/contact the partner with force …iow if you are capable of using inward elbow as you strike then you will have your wrist [ not that it matters] in the forearm area , because the elbow doesnt move back and forth …and you are now able to use an elbow and make contact with the partners chest to develop IMPACT & ELBOW positions simultaneously.

Many start the whole dan chi..lok sao etc.. with the idea that you feel and roll energy around , trying to turn it by adjusting the stance to deflect the energy..all wrong.
You start with the wrists and think its about feeling things at the wrists and countering with energy at your wrists and hey presto your wasting time for years :smiley: the fighing system is lost in a quagmire of chi-sao games.

VT requires a person to coach you OUT OF USING THE WRISTS incorrectly…if you dont learn this you will easily be shown by someone with alignment skills…becasue the writs will leave the line in attempts to stop the incoming lines of strikes with ..WRIST ENERGY…:smiley:

if you have the knowledge then your confidence levels increase exponentially due to the simple fact that you can see the genius of the system …and it aint rolling around feeling a tan with your fook .
Its about fighting , brutal , quick and effective .
If you get lost in the sticky rolly world of chi-sao you end up with little confidence regardless of all the ‘moves’ you have …your heart will be the guide, follow it.

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983307]thats because mostly every WC guy is using wrist energy to wrist energy in an incorrectly applied drill…leading to hand chasing, over trapping etc…common.

VT is striking…

The distances of dan chi-sao drills are greater than chi-sao lok sao drills due to the impact using contact with the partner not being introduced yet…the dan chi-sao is about learning to use the alignment of your strikes to do multiple tasks , iow, strike and use the arm positions along the centerline to be a defensive position.

So the initial contact area will be wrists to wrists but that doesnt matter , what matters is that you dont use the wrists to deliver the energy of the deflections…you are far enough away that you wont hit each other if the guys bong is slow etc…impact comes from moving closer in the more advanced stages of training…

Dan chi-sao becomes redundant after doing it as a learning curve, iow you no longer adopt the further distances of wrist /wrist contact points…and no longer do 2 beat strikes …thats an introductory level for alignment of wrists and elbows for striking with later in fighting…
the strikes go from 2 beats in dan chi to 1 beat with 2 actions per strike per arm…for fighting later.

The idea that your feeling with the wrists and rolling the energy is completely wrong, its an idea developed by those with little understanding of the process for fighting…

Jum sao comes from the resting fok sao…so fok sao is really just a neutral arm position for the WC drill…

You have a fok sao ( neutral elbow) resting on the tan ( outwards elbow strike )because the stimulus/signal to do jum sao (inwards elbow strike ) isnt being sent…

the signal is tan attempting to strike forwards , when the arm feels the signal the fok stops resting and disappears altogether because it is now a pre-strike position for inwards elbow training …iow its no longer fok because you have ENERGY in the arm

regarding the fok position after doing dan chi and moving closer doing lok sao etc…:
If you are close enough to use both the elbow idea in development and strike/contact the partner with force …iow if you are capable of using inward elbow as you strike then you will have your wrist [ not that it matters] in the forearm area , because the elbow doesnt move back and forth …and you are now able to use an elbow and make contact with the partners chest to develop IMPACT & ELBOW positions simultaneously.

Many start the whole dan chi..lok sao etc.. with the idea that you feel and roll energy around , trying to turn it by adjusting the stance to deflect the energy..all wrong.
You start with the wrists and think its about feeling things at the wrists and countering with energy at your wrists and hey presto your wasting time for years :smiley: the fighing system is lost in a quagmire of chi-sao games.

VT requires a person to coach you OUT OF USING THE WRISTS incorrectly…if you dont learn this you will easily be shown by someone with alignment skills…becasue the writs will leave the line in attempts to stop the incoming lines of strikes with ..WRIST ENERGY…:smiley:

if you have the knowledge then your confidence levels increase exponentially due to the simple fact that you can see the genius of the system …and it aint rolling around feeling a tan with your fook .
Its about fighting , brutal , quick and effective .
If you get lost in the sticky rolly world of chi-sao you end up with little confidence regardless of all the ‘moves’ you have …your heart will be the guide, follow it.[/QUOTE]

Actually it’s the reverse… Moving the fook and tan too close (if that’s what you are suggesting) causes an imbalance, where one has already taken the line… What happens next is that the student will try to compensate for this imbalance by using lateral energy (what you call wrist energy) to regain the line… That is an error..

Now…

Go ahead and use this as an example. . I would say that the contact points here are correct. .. IF you do luksao that is… LOL

What say you?

[QUOTE=YungChun;983274]Hi Phil,

You mean the way fook is done in SLT? Was how you used to do it?

Like this?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QGlFuIlBUA4

. . . . . . [/QUOTE]

Yes, like that. Look at around :50 here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-q548Og9p0

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;983947]Yes, like that. Look at around :50 here.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1-q548Og9p0[/QUOTE]

Yeah I see that now… Watched the clip..

Hate to be a party pooper but I would have to disagree re the comments there re the fook. I don’t use that particular variation <we use an open palmed fook with the palm in good contact with their bridge> but I understand it, I also suspect this was used to strike with the wrist bone <going forward>. The horizontal <pulling the fingers close to the arm as in the form> position tightens the inside of the forearm and helps to move it into the line along with the elbow.. You mentioned there that tan can strike, well, only if the elbow and bridge is not in the center, if it is well then it occupies…

You also showed a ‘fake’ move where I think tan fakes a palm and then goes over.. This can only happen IMO, in the absence of forward pressure/energy.. If both use forward pressure and correct position then whoever moves offline will get hit, that simple. Start to fake and bang. Just as if you have two folks each pointing high pressure water hoses at each other’s center.. Move off line and you get soaked..

Also like two springs, coiled and ready to strike whichever finds space, first fires, almost by itself.. If the other tool moves offline taking the opposing tool with it then you jao…

I see a lot of folks training ChiSao to do small disengagements <backwards, just a bit> then come back in.. IMO it’s the absence of the emphasis on forward spring energy that is responsible for this tendency…

JMO

[QUOTE=YungChun;983964]Yeah I see that now… Watched the clip..

Hate to be a party pooper but I would have to disagree re the comments there re the fook. I don’t use that particular variation <we use an open palmed fook with the palm in good contact with their bridge> but I understand it, I also suspect this was used to strike with the wrist bone <going forward>. The horizontal <pulling the fingers close to the arm as in the form> position tightens the inside of the forearm and helps to move it into the line along with the elbow.. You mentioned there that tan can strike, well, only if the elbow and bridge is not in the center, if it is well then it occupies…

You also showed a ‘fake’ move where I think tan fakes a palm and then goes over.. This can only happen IMO, in the absence of forward pressure/energy.. If both use forward pressure and correct position then whoever moves offline will get hit, that simple. Start to fake and bang. Just as if you have two folks each pointing high pressure water hoses at each other’s center.. Move off line and you get soaked..

Also like two springs, coiled and ready to strike whichever finds space, first fires, almost by itself.. If the other tool moves offline taking the opposing tool with it then you jao…

I see a lot of folks training ChiSao to do small disengagements <backwards, just a bit> then come back in.. IMO it’s the absence of the emphasis on forward spring energy that is responsible for this tendency…

JMO[/QUOTE]
I’ve understood the concept of forward intent in WC having studied from 4 students of Yip Man and some 2nd generation Yip Man students since the early 70’s. :wink:
I’m fast enough to do what I did in that clip even when someone is pushing forward.
Are you in NY? If so we can meet sometime and I can show you. I’m at 64 E. 4th St. 4th floor every Sat. from 3:30 -5:30pm
I touch on forward intent in these clips.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K0f8LoAPQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbkj18K2N2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1rNvqxFC3Y

[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;983973]I’ve understood the concept of forward intent in WC since 1970. :wink:
I’m fast enough to do what I did in that clip even when someone is pushing forward.
Are you in NY? If so we can meet sometime and I can show you. I’m at 64 E. 4th St. 4th floor every Sat. from 3:30 -5:30pm

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-K0f8LoAPQU

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Dbkj18K2N2s

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i1rNvqxFC3Y[/QUOTE]

I’ll try to stop by sometime.. I’m hoping to be more active this year…

Still I can’t agree that when one tool springs forward that anyone is going to be able to then go reverse go around and then in again as the initial spring continues on its merry springing way.. By definition that means your tool will need to move several times faster than the forward moving ‘spring’.. Which even if it could work completely violates the system’s ‘idea’ as I was taught it. My sihings back in the old days could take my center not by moving faster but by having better position and energy…

[QUOTE=YungChun;983975]I’ll try to stop by sometime.. I’m hoping to be more active this year…

Still I can’t agree that when one tool springs forward that anyone is going to be able to then go back around and in again as that initial spring continues on it’s merry springing way.. By definition that means your tool will need to move several times faster than the forward moving ‘spring’.. Which even if it could work completely violates the system’s ‘idea’ as I was taught it. My sihings back in the old days could take my center not by moving faster but by having better position and energy…[/QUOTE]
What can I say, speed kills. :cool:
I’ll pm you my cell so you can contact me.

feel free to drop by ,same address as Phil :smiley: writing doesnt convey the idea…easier to show hands on than words…

btw pictures dont convey ideas…but you will find out.

if I didnt know what i know now, I too would see pictures and see similarities…its all about an idea . Being precise for photos doesnt matter becasue you wont see the ‘thinking’.

the issue isnt the fook etc… but the central idea being developed throughout…the process in the system for developing a striking attack ..

curious ?

[QUOTE=k gledhill;983982]feel free to drop by ,same address as Phil :smiley: writing doesnt convey the idea…easier to show hands on than words…

btw pictures dont convey ideas…but you will find out.

if I didnt know what i know now, I too would see pictures and see similarities…its all about an idea . Being precise for photos doesnt matter becasue you wont see the ‘thinking’.

the issue isnt the fook etc… but the central idea being developed throughout…the process in the system for developing a striking attack ..

curious ?[/QUOTE]
Well yes I am curious, curious if you do luksao… LOL

Also interesting: you both work out of the same place yet appear to have diametrically opposed ideas on the system.. You guys ever do any friendly ChiSao?

my door is open…my cup empty.