Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike? Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.
[QUOTE=kowloonboy;1097000]can the Fook Sao be used as a strike?[/QUOTE]
The WC (Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis (Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1097020]The WC (Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis (Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.[/QUOTE]
Thanks. I have been trying to use Fu Shou on the wall bag, and I can see that it can be a strike. 
And after you have confirm that Diao Shou in Mantis is actually a strike, I can see that I can keep practicing the same technique as a strike. Thanks mate.
fook sao is not a strike.
NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike. You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it. Now I know that some martial arts do it but they have problems with their hand when they get older. I know because my Okinawan Sensei couldn’t even thread a needle because of his hand training.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1097065]You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it.[/QUOTE]
Not if you just use it to strike on your opponent’s nose. You will break your opponent’s nose before breaking your own hand. You may not be able to “kill” your opponent with that strike, but that strike can make your opponent’s eyes watery, that will give you a chance to do a lot of other things.
Here is one example.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1097067]Not if you just use it to strike on your opponent’s nose. You will break your opponent’s nose before breaking your own hand. You may not be able to “kill” your opponent with that strike, but that strike can make your opponent’s eyes watery, that will give you a chance to do a lot of other things.
Here is one example.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE[/QUOTE]
Nice “demo”.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1097065]NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike. You can break the bones in the back of the hand if you strike with it. Now I know that some martial arts do it but they have problems with their hand when they get older. I know because my Okinawan Sensei couldn’t even thread a needle because of his hand training.[/QUOTE]
I totally agree with you Phil. mesh up the wrist is an extremely bad deal.
Back hand palm strike is not using the same mechanic as Fuhk Sao.
The white Crane metal hand is different type too.
So, Dont do it.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zKWVOc2HOig
start 5.22 that is not fook sau but Kong sau which could be used for strike but it is a very different mechanics even it might look close to fook sau. pay attention to my wrist and how I hold my hand and fingers.
It can be seen from 1.00 to 1.16 (from inside then tap). The combat application should have no “style boundary”. If it works for you, use it, otherwise, don’t.
Hi Phil,
I watched a vdo of yours showing how to use Fuk Sao in Chi Sao with fwd intention but you did not use the hand (sao) but the inside of the forearm to control with. In this situation the “shape” of the hand could be said to be not “that” important so therefore could be used to strike with any hand shape - as the hand is going fwd anyway and forearm is doing the controlling. I think you even have shown this on vdo actually.. but as a second step?
If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?
The outside of the forearm can also be used to control. As you said recently the cantonese names are verbs / actions and not describing a specific hand shape / posn.
“If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?”
you may be onto something there ;)
Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike?
It all depends which lineage you are involved in. Most people use fook sau for controlling arms. There are many many different ideas as to what Fook Sau actually defines. In my system Fook Sau is a punching concept, not an application. In the first part of SLT we are training the elbow to come in and forward which is not a natural punching way for human beings. The reason for the elbow having to come into the center and forward do not become apparent until Chum Kiu and the various drills that follow. SLT is not a fighting form it is an exercise. The hand is turned inwards to encourage the elbow to come into the center whilst we are slowly pushing the elbow around the body and forward. In essence fook sau trains a certain punch…in my lineage of course.
Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.
As I have said SLT is an exercise. Its abstract and is not for fighting people with. There is no application to bringing Fak Sau back to Lan Sau other than to train the next movement…jum sau. The correct rotation of the elbow (back to the fixed elbow position) ready for the punch…i.e. elbows remain down for punching. You may ask why these actions are done together…its so we can attain balance in both arms. One helps the other. Doing these actions with one arm only after not too much time spent training can cause other problems.
An important error that this movement addresses is that when we rotate the elbow back down that we do not chop down with the forearms. The elbows just rotate and the punching position is then perfect.
It’s up to you which idea you wish to follow and as you will see there are always conflicting ideas…
GH
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1097112]“If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?”
you may be onto something there ;):D[/QUOTE]
Heaven forbid!!! :D:D:D:D 
GH
[QUOTE=Graham H;1097127] . . . . . . . . .
As I have said SLT is an exercise. Its abstract and is not for fighting people with. . . . .
GH[/QUOTE]
There are many fighting applications in the SLT form. I teach them every class. One of the things I’ve learned over years is to not say what WC has and doesn’t have. None of us were around during the development of WC so all we have to go on is what our Sifus say. They repeat to us what their Sifus said.
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The Fok Sau can be extrapolated as an Ox Bow Hand and you can strike with your wrist. However, I personally pull that out of the form elsewhere. As some have pointed out, it better be on some ‘soft tissue’ areas. Also, just the same as a Phoenix Eye fist, it is recommended that you condition that part of your body before you use it.
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The ‘returning Lan’ has been shown to me in another lineage as a Kow Sau - like a catching hand. If my hand is out and a punch is coming, I can come back and catch it with that hand. Never thought of an inside ridge hand - but coming from a Kenpo-ish background - I like that idea!
Best
CTK
[QUOTE=kowloonboy;1097000]Hi, I am new to the form, and I am looking for answer for these these questions. In the Siu Lim Tao form, can the Fook Sao be used as a strike for application, as I have tried this on the wall bag and I believe it looks like a crane strike? Also after Fak Sao (movement 101 to 102 of the form), we get into the double Lan Sao, I know that Fak Sao is a strike, but is there another application when get back to the Lan Sao? So after Fak Sao we strike outward, when we return back to Lan Sao, is this an application for ridge hand inward as a strike to the back of the head or something? Please advise.[/QUOTE]
It is quite hard for me to see what part of the SLT you’re talking about but from the spelling/sounds and other posts I will offer my view.
[QUOTE=YouKnowWho;1097020]The WC (Fu Shou) is the same as the Mantis (Diao Shou). Both can be used for face striking.[/QUOTE]
The WC (Fu Shou)?? I thought kowloonboy was talking about Fook Sau (Cantonese please!) which isn’t even the same character you have here.
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1097020]NEVER use a fuhk sao for striking. Fuhk means control. Not strike. [/QUOTE]
As a learned Cantonese talker you surely must have heard that Fook/Fuhk means ‘hidden’ (?) AND control AND subdue, so it can be looked upon as a ‘concept’. Please tell me that you have learnt about Fook Da, Tan Da, Bong Da??!! THAT is a ‘hidden hit’
And then you go on to say…
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1097020]There are many fighting applications in the SLT form. I teach them every class. One of the things I’ve learned over years is to not say what WC has and doesn’t have.[/QUOTE]
Really??
And as far as using something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE I understand that this is part of the fook controling concept but the hand technique itself is kao sau or ‘hooking or latching hand’, like in the SBF section of SLT.
So, looking at all the posts here, does anyone really know their SLT or Wooden Man for that matter as the fook sau kuen is present in the second set???!! :o
[QUOTE=k gledhill;1097020]“If it is possible to control and hit why not do it as one action, food for thought?”[/QUOTE]
You see!! That’s why I like and respect some things that WSL people say!! Although I do think EVERYONE here missed what you were saying Kev.
Fook sau kuen. Bong sau kuen. Tan sau kuen.
Wake up guys
[QUOTE=Phil Redmond;1097159]There are many fighting applications in the SLT form. I teach them every class. One of the things I’ve learned over years is to not say what WC has and doesn’t have. None of us were around during the development of WC so all we have to go on is what our Sifus say. They repeat to us what their Sifus said.[/QUOTE]
Correct. So can you give me some examples of your SLT fighting applications Phil? Let’s say the 3 crossing actions before the punches at the end of the form. There are many in other lineages but only one concept in my system. My concept is small in idea.
G
You would be surprised whats hidden before us when doing SLT
stare past the abstract image of forms, arms angles, redundant drills and you might see a clear picture of your goals for fighting.
look deep past the surface …
a little bit of all the abstract parts make up a clear and sophisticated idea for fighting…some never see this simply because their teacher never gained a deep enough knowledge of the system to look past the pointing finger and see the heavenly glory . A large part of the image isnt used in the final goals …
in the image is an airplane in 3D…if I tell you its there you will try to look for it. If I dont explain you see abstract image, with a meaning to every individual who has no idea of the image lying inside it.
[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1097166]It is quite hard for me to see what part of the SLT you’re talking about but from the spelling/sounds and other posts I will offer my view.
The WC (Fu Shou)?? I thought kowloonboy was talking about Fook Sau (Cantonese please!) which isn’t even the same character you have here.
As a learned Cantonese talker you surely must have heard that Fook/Fuhk means ‘hidden’ (?) AND control AND subdue, so it can be looked upon as a ‘concept’. Please tell me that you have learnt about Fook Da, Tan Da, Bong Da??!! THAT is a ‘hidden hit’
And then you go on to say…
Really??
And as far as using something like this http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WRTHBPQdRDE I understand that this is part of the fook controling concept but the hand technique itself is kao sau or ‘hooking or latching hand’, like in the SBF section of SLT.
So, looking at all the posts here, does anyone really know their SLT or Wooden Man for that matter as the fook sau kuen is present in the second set???!! :o
You see!! That’s why I like and respect some things that WSL people say!! Although I do think EVERYONE here missed what you were saying Kev.
Fook sau kuen. Bong sau kuen. Tan sau kuen.
Wake up guys :D[/QUOTE]
yup, they missed that one…