Centerline, what is it?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
1

This has probably been beaten to death here, but I would like your input on this. Yip Man wing chun lineages speak of the centerline as a “concept”,a “principle” or is it “principal” and also a “theory”. Please help get to the bottom of this. Ive included the definitions of these below for your reference. All views are appreciated including non Yip Man forum members. Please include your feelings on it, not simply “cuz my sifu sez so”! Personally, I can see it from all the defs below, hence the confusion! :confused:

Concept
Function: noun
1 : something conceived in the mind : THOUGHT, NOTION
2 : an abstract or generic idea generalized from particular instances
synonym : IDEA (perhaps, Little Idea!)

Principal
Function: noun
a matter or thing of primary importance: as a (1) : a capital sum placed at interest, due as a debt, or used as a fund (2) : the corpus of an estate, portion, devise, or bequest b : the construction that gives shape and strength to a roof and is usually one of several trusses; broadly : the most important member of a piece of framing.

Function: adjective
1 : most important, consequential, or influential : CHIEF
2 : of, relating to, or constituting principal or a principal

Principle
Function: noun
1 a : a comprehensive and fundamental law, doctrine, or assumption b (1) : a rule or code of conduct (2) : habitual devotion to right principles <a man of principle> c : the laws or facts of nature underlying the working of an artificial device
2 : a primary source : ORIGIN
3 a : an underlying faculty or endowment <such principles of human nature as greed and curiosity> b : an ingredient (as a chemical) that exhibits or imparts a characteristic quality

Theory
Function: noun
1 : the analysis of a set of facts in their relation to one another
2 : abstract thought : SPECULATION
3 : the general or abstract principles of a body of fact, a science, or an art <music theory>
4 a : a belief, policy, or procedure proposed or followed as the basis of action <her method is based on the theory that all children want to learn> b : an ideal or hypothetical set of facts, principles, or circumstances – often used in the phrase in theory <in theory, we have always advocated freedom for all>
5 : a plausible or scientifically acceptable general principle or body of principles offered to explain phenomena <wave theory of light>
6 a : a hypothesis assumed for the sake of argument or investigation b : an unproved assumption : CONJECTURE c : a body of theorems presenting a concise systematic view of a subject.

Although nearly every handbook and many dictionaries warn against confusing principle and principal, many people still do. Principle is only a noun; principal is both adjective and noun.
Taken from http://www.m-w.com

2

A concept, I think, as in that no one (or very few) have an actual line tatooed down the front or back of their bodies. It doesn’t exist as a physical object.

Also a principle, as in protecting/attacking along/not crossing the centreline.

Some styles have more definitions of centreline than others, but of course greater numbers of definitions do not necessarily a better style make.

Nor is centreline unique to WC, many KF styles pay homage to it. Heck, even BJJ has a centreline principle.

3

Neither is it the be all and end all of WC’s focus…! :eek: :slight_smile:

4

Thnx for the reply anerlich. Looking at it from your perspective then, one could boil it down to centerline being a “theory” as it is made up of concepts and principles. Does this sound reasonable to you?
For those afraid to be shot down or feel they are walking into a trap by replying, I wan’t simply to have a clear concise answer to give students. Maybe the answer isn’t so clear! As for having a line tatooed on you, you would have to have one tatooed on every degree of rotation on your body! :eek:

5

Of course not stu, but lets take it one step at a time bro! :slight_smile:

6

Main Entry: anal·y·sis
Pronunciation: &-'na-l&-s&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural anal·y·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: New Latin, from Greek, from analyein to break up, from ana- + lyein to loosen – more at LOSE
1 : separation of a whole into its component parts
2 a : the identification or separation of ingredients of a substance b : a statement of the constituents of a mixture
3 a : proof of a mathematical proposition by assuming the result and deducing a valid statement by a series of reversible steps b (1) : a branch of mathematics concerned mainly with functions and limits (2) : CALCULUS 1b
4 a : an examination of a complex, its elements, and their relations b : a statement of such an analysis
5 a : a method in philosophy of resolving complex expressions into simpler or more basic ones b : clarification of an expression by an elucidation of its use in discourse
6 : the use of function words instead of inflectional forms as a characteristic device of a language
7 : PSYCHOANALYSIS

Main Entry: pa·ral·y·sis
Pronunciation: p&-'ra-l&-s&s
Function: noun
Inflected Form(s): plural pa·ral·y·ses /-"sEz/
Etymology: Latin, from Greek, from paralyein to loosen, disable, from para- + lyein to loosen – more at LOSE
1 : complete or partial loss of function especially when involving the motion or sensation in a part of the body
2 : loss of the ability to move
3 : a state of powerlessness or incapacity to act

:rolleyes:

The only thing I’ll add is both “center” and “line” in “centerline” should be construed as verbs in this instance, not as an adjective prefix to a noun. This is a tiny bit harder to visualize if a practitioner subscribes to using “centralline” to describe what is ultimately only a rule of thumb.

7

From a Very Previous Thread (with some revision):

WHAT IS THE CENTERLINE?

(For purposes of simplicity and clarity I will take the liberty of introducing a terminology of my own that I use to help understand the centerline and all other related wing chun concepts (ie.- the central line). Whatever direction you are facing, call that north…south is therefore behind you…east is to your right , and west is to your left).

Also: cut-the-body-in-half = c-t-b-i-h

The CENTERLINE in TWC and in every other wing chun system I am familiar with is FOURFOLD: the imaginary vertical line that runs down the exact center of your body when facing north (ie.- the line that cuts your body into two equal halves)…

the vertical cut-the-body-in-half line that runs down the center of your opponents’ body THAT HE IS FACING YOU WITH, (ie. - regardless of how he lines up in front of you)…

the vertical c-t-b-i-h line running down the side of your body THAT YOU ARE FACING HIM WITH (which may or may not be the first line I described - for it depends upon how you choose to face the opponent at any given moment)…

and the imaginary HORIZONTAL c-t-b-i-h line that connects you and your opponent at any given moment (ie. - the horizontal line you might use to travel along to hit your opponent with several straight chain punches from a close distance)…

But from the TWC point of view, it all starts with the CENTRAL LINE theory, which defines the area a practitioner, without pivoting his hips, can cross his wrists evenly at the lower, middle, and upper gates when in a neutral stance. The very first movement you make with both arms after opening up your stance in any of the three forms - and immediately before throwing the vertical punch with your left hand - is the move that defines the central line. Recall the X-like movement (or scissor-like) motion your arms make when they go down from the chambers to the lower gates…

now freeze that movement for a moment. In other words, before rotating the X/scissor position up toward the higher gates - while still in the down position…start moving both arms to your right…

Remember not to pivot your hips (or shoulders), and when the hands and fingers would start to no longer reach to the exact same distance evenly if you were to continue to move them to the right (because your right arm and hand would now be extending further than the left)…you’ve just reached the eastern border of your central line.

Move the X/scissors to the left (west) until you reach the same position just described. You have now totally defined (or traced) an imaginary horizontal line…put that another way, an east-west plane known as the central line. And if you position your body vis-a-vis your opponent so that all blocks, parries, lops, and strikes only travel within the perimeters of this central line AREA…

You will always maximize the use of both arms for simultaneous attack and defense, and minimize the target area you present to your opponent. With this position, you the practitioner have the straight line path available for attack, while the opponent has only the outside path, an increased distance.

When using the central line theory, the practitioner almost always tries use footwork that enables him to FACE THE POINT OF CONTACT with his vertical, middle-of-the-body when facing north CENTERLINE when blocking or parrying blows coming in at him, while “returning the fire” in simultaneous (or hopefully simultaneous) attack on SOME OTHER POINT along the east-west horizontal central line.

And then at some point in your wing chun life you forget about all of this (consciously) and just let your zen-like live-in-the-moment intuition take over and simply beat the crap out of the guy! :stuck_out_tongue: :wink: :smiley: :cool:

8

Thnx UWC thats a great great way for identifying where your lines are in relation to your opponent. So, when you are asked by a student what the concepts, principles and theorys of wing chun are where do you place “centreline”?

9

My notes on this:

The Centre Line
The centre line is the two dimensional plane that interconnects via a straight line my central axis with that of my opponent. It is like a compass needle that always points magnetically north irrespective of which way I am facing. Thus no matter which way my opponent or I are oriented the centreline always describes the shortest distance between our respective central axes. So there is not MY centreline or HIS centreline- there is only THE centreline.
By way of illustration: If I and my opponent are facing each other and then my opponent turns to the side the centreline does not shift- it remains the same- thus i do not run around to the front of him to hit his ‘centre’- i hit it from where I am, taking the shortest route to his central axis- consequently in this scenario my point of contact will be either his ribs, his shoulder or the side of his head but in each case the target is still the same - namely his central axis.
Thus in Wing chun we always aim to attack our opponents central axis in the most efficient manner possible.
There are three main reasons for attacking the opponents central axis and by extension their centre of gravity: Firstly it ensures that all the force goes ‘into’ the enemy rather than being dissipated by any natural rotation of the torso via the spine (like a snooker ball- hitting it on the centre with the cue will mean, all other things being equal, that it travels the furthest distance), secondly the majority of vital organs, sensitive/vulnerable points are located on or aound there (the nose, chin, throat, sternum, solar plexus, groin etc.) and thirdly it uproots the opponent thus frustrating any possible counter attack which they might otherwise try and launch.

10

a “theory”

Not “a theory” as that would imply it was an explanation backed up by evidence of why phenomena occur in a certain way.

But “theory”, as in a collection of concepts and principles, yes.

IMO you can talk about “centreline theory”, but not “the centreline theory”.

This discussion is more about semantics and linguistics than WC, not that that’s a big deal, but I’d point out there’s unlikely to be many who are experts in both fields (though of course some regard themselves as experts on every subject :wink: )

11

My definition of the cL is the same as Nick Forrer’s above. Im not 100% convinced about the reasoning behind it though. I think the reason the centreline is important in wing chun has to do with simultaneous attack and defence, simplified that if we attack down it we are defended. Its a lot more complicated than that i know but i think thats the whole reasoning behind wing chun geometry really.

I think i can explain why point by point, here goes :

NF : Firstly it ensures that all the force goes ‘into’ the enemy rather than being dissipated by any natural rotation of the torso via the spine (like a snooker ball- hitting it on the centre with the cue will mean, all other things being equal, that it travels the furthest distance).
>> I like the analogy of the snooker ball, but take a thai boxer who jabs crosses long knees round kicks etc they attack the centre of the opponent but dont go down the centreline.

NF : secondly the majority of vital organs, sensitive/vulnerable points are located on or aound there (the nose, chin, throat, sternum, solar plexus, groin etc.) and
>> This ones a bit weak. Eyes, knees, elbows, ribs, jaw loads of tasty things to attack are off centre too.

NF: thirdly it uproots the opponent thus frustrating any possible counter attack which they might otherwise try and launch.
>> yeah but attacks dont have to go down the centreline to do this, they could just as easily not.

sorry nick dont take that as an attack, i agree with the rest of your post. it really helps using different terms for centreline and central axis too avoid confusion and mix ups.

ps i enjoy bits of your blog nick dude keep it up.

12

ahh

I like Nick Forrer’s post, :slight_smile: and have experienced the following in other schools in my area.

Some refer to the centerline being the imaginary line on YOUR OWN body that is a reference for actions/direction etc.

Then the straight line that connects your body/action to your opponents closest object (shoulder if side on, face if front on etc) as the meridian line.
(the shortest distance between two points)

I think two different names seperate these two ‘concepts’ well.

IMO One can be a basis for stucture and movement and the other a path of the least amount of distance, which will always eb and flow depending on your position reletive to your opponent. (its always changing)

I agree with the fore mentioned… “This discussion is more about semantics and linguistics than WC”
However i do find this interesting :cool:

13

Hey guy’s thnx for all the great answers. FYI i’m aware of what the centreline is but I was trying to categorize it as either a principle, concept or a theory.

I like this answer. Of course it begs the question, which concepts and principles make up the theory? :wink:

14

Why limit things by trying to place everything in a nice tidy box? You may end up leaving a few interesting things out…

Of course, in the beginning you need to be able to explain these ideas to students, but at some time it may be better to free yourself from the those limitations while remaining true the core value. Something like taking the training wheels off of a bicycle.

Just a thought, or was that theory? Maybe it’s a concept. :confused: :smiley: :smiley:

15

Where is the limitation? Did you limit yourself by learning Wing Chun? Of course some will say that you can apply these “core values” to anything that you could possibly think of! I personally need the “nice tidy box” to help explain and to teach people the “core values”. :slight_smile:

16

Hey Stricker. I have no problem with your disagreeing. However what you say does not contradict what I have said since I was referring to why we hit the central axis, not why our attacks follow the centreline. There is a subtle but important difference between these two things. As you correctly note it is possible to hit the central axis without following the centreline.

So to be clear the reason why we attack along the centreline is first and foremost efficency- the quickest route between two points being a straight line.

However to defend and attack simultaneously along the centreline requires more than just ensuring that you attack along it. Think of a jab. This can follow the centreline easily. However because the elbow is not pointed to the floor you are not covering the centre at the same time. Thus to defend and attack simultaneously we need to do more than just attack along the centre: our elbow must also be down. This has the added effect of course of connecting our arm to our stance making it structurally stronger since it channels the equal and opposite force (by newtons 3rd law) into the ground and back out again.

Cheers. Haven’t stopped training. Just lazy/busy at the mo.

17

The simplest way to say it would be:

We hit the central axis (3 reasons) , in a straight line (1 reason) with the elbow down (2 reasons).

18

I mean the limitation of labeling it as theory, principle or concept. Kind of like Shakespere’s famous line, “A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”

I think it’s a concept that we use as a principle, but that’s only a theory. :wink:

19

“A rose by any other name would smell as sweet.”

Isn’t that a JKD theory. :slight_smile:

20

Anything is possible I guess.
BTW, I’ve sent you a PM.