Hello All. I just started my Wing Chun training after years of other arts. Eager to test what I had learned I went to a karateka friends house and we began sparring. It seemed to me that Wing Chun was weak against attacks that didnt follow the centerline. Is this just in the beginning? I just started Sil Lum Doa so I am not an advanced Wing Chun artist but I am a skilled fighter. What do you think? Was I applying it wrong or is it defecient? Thank you. Chen Zen
Empty your cup.
The advantages of keeping the centerline is pretty obvious. But as for all new technics or knowledges it takes time to learn so be patient.
As for countering circular attacks, we do have suchs technics, but until you learn them just remember this; If in doubt attack. If attacked, attack. If hit, attack…
To be more specific. If he tries to hit you with a roundhouse kick, frontkick him in the stomac etc. Maybe he will still hit you, but if you are faster, he wont hit as hard as you do :).
Oh and as soon as you make contact dont let go, until he is down, and when that happens kick him a few times in the head until he stays down
I don’t know if this is an issue as well, but one thing to remember is that protecting the centerline and owning the centerline only gives you an advantage if the center wedge that you own is also the center wedge thet he needs.
If you are not facing the opponent so that he cannot hit you while you own that wedge, You are not capitalizing on the position. That’s why setting up and facing, before the engagement, is so crucial. If you can line up properly before he crosses the go point, you can start out with the shortest distance to target, because he will have to either challenge you head on (bad idea because you have structure and will be able to redirect) or go around (take the long route and give you more time).
If you master that little strategy (admittedly easier said than done), then you can do as jesper was saying, and neutralize the threat before it can impart any real power top you, by hitting them while they try to hit you.
My Sitaigung has said… “You Move First, I Hit First.” I did not fully understand at first, but now I think it refers to not necessarily being the fastest in absolute speed, but by always having the space that you need to hit and denying your opponent theirs. The easiest (ok, not easy, but obvious maybe) way to make sure you have the space you need and your opponent does not is to make both spaces one in the same, and to make sure you are the only one with dibs on that real estate.
-Levi
Thank you. I do not quite understand what you meant by “wedge” but I think I have gotten the concept. Stuff his attacks with a straightline attack since it is quicker than an arch. Is this right? I will give this some thought. Thanks again. Chen Zen
Hi Chen Zen,
I found that wing chun, AT FIRST, is like any other form of kung fu; it’s a bunch of techniques. This might just be due to my own kung fu stereotypes, however. Wing Chun really starts to shine when you learn to stick, you learn sensitivity, and you learn to play the wing chun game.
Just my opinion.
Well I have no other Kung Fu experience other than concepts and philosophy so it is a first for me that I have long awaited. Thanks again.
Chen Zen,
If you are making a transition from other arts, then my guess is that you reverted to your old ways when you sparred with your karateka friend. I also came to Wing Chun with a lot of “other arts” baggage and my experience was similar to yours. It takes a long time to shed the old behaviors. It also takes some time to replace the old belief systems with the new prinicples, at least that has been my experience.
If you have “just started” Sil Nim Tao, then you have a little bit more to learn before sparring, IMO. It will come in time, but rest assured, Wing Chun is very effective. Be patient, and abandon ideas of “winning” sparring contests. Your eagerness to “test” your new found skills may natural, but it may also be your downfall. It’s like you are just learning to crawl and you wonder why you can’t run a marathon yet. Enjoy the journey, and learn to trust what you are being taught.
As always, your mileage may vary.
Matrix
Matrix, I did tend to use my regular arsenal of kicks that are not from Wing Chun. However all of the hand movements I used were from the Wing Chun. I grew comfortable with them because I sparred and practiced drills with them all day. For some reason it seemed that I was having a hard time with hooks keeping my hands in front of my centerline. I am sure that it is a good art though and after the first day I felt like a much improved fighter. As far as winning sparring matches I do want to win all the time since I want to win all the time if I were in a real situation. But thank you for telling me tht it will get better and I will take to mind the things you have said to me. Thank You, Chen Zen.
Originally posted by Chen Zen
For some reason it seemed that I was having a hard time with hooks keeping my hands in front of my centerline. I am sure that it is a good art though and after the first day I felt like a much improved fighter.
You are probably chasing your opponents hands instead of maintaining WC principles. Not to worry, this is a natural tendency that will be broken as you progress…and you will progress.When you get to chi sao, you will learn to develop and refine these skills.
I would just like to address the statement of feeling like a better fighter on the first day. My observations have been that Wing Chun is a lot slower to develop these skills than other arts. Other arts have students running around kicking and punching in a very short period of time, weeks if not days. The student then has the delusion that they can fight. They feel like they are doing things that look like fighting skills and then you train to do them faster and harder. Wing Chun is a slower process. You work on basic structure and principles and progress along a very structured path to what I think is a superior skill level. But at times, especially in the beginning, you may feel as if you’re not progressing (compared to your karateka friends) and you can become discouraged. Don’t be fooled by this. It’s like food, you can run to your local fast food joint (or belt factory) and grab a meal that satisifes your hunger quickly, but is it really nutritious? Better to carefully prepare a meal with fresh and healthy ingredients. It takes more time and effort, but the results are much more beneficial to the body, mind and spirit.
All the best with your training,
Matrix
Hi,
This is a response to the initial question.
If you just started wing chun, your probably not in a position to spar and make any judgement about its effectivness of the art. I would think others would have uncovered that years ago if it was a problem. It takes time to learn some skills and learn to apply them correctly.
The centerline is probably the best place to be when things are happening quickly. It is a natural protection barier that will save your butt time and time again, as you will find out as you progress. Wing Chun just didn’t pull the idea out of thin air.
Using any tool out of context isn’t a good idea. A lawn mower is great for cutting grass, but holding a blad of grass and feeding it to the lawnmower by hand probably isn’t the best way to do it. Likewise, you have to read the wing chun owners manual and learn to use the centerline correctly.
The center line provides us with many things. One is that it is our natural protection. It puts us inplace to intercept the majority of attacks. Since it is a shroter distance, we can strike quicker than some one on the outside. It is a place that our structure can be harnessed to deleiver incredible power. We can draw a bead onto the opponent and attack his spine or core structure so he can not do anything. If we are on the centerline and the enemy punches, then we automaticly intercept his punch with out any concious effort.
That is the easy part. That is some of what it can do for us. But like the lawn mower, we have to employ it correctly. Standing out in sparing range like a couple of boxers is not using the center line idea correctly. And if your not very good at wing chun, and the other guy is pretty good at anything, your probably gonna be discouraged at best, and proabably sore the next day. LOL. You HAVE to bring the fight in and challange the opponent. You have to stick and prevent them from initiating an attack. You need to be in close range for this stuff to work, and you can sit back trading blows. The idea is NOT to let your opponent punch.
If you do it right, you should be able to hit him at will any time he tries to throw a hooking punch. There is a famous wing chun saying. Intercept/stay/stick with what comes, follow what retreats, and hit/rush in upon loss of contact. If your starting out and you don’t feel anything, rush in to the centerline. If you have some sort of contact, then stay with it until there is an opening. If he his going to hit you with a outside attack, he has to move his hands. When he does, rush in or hit him. Every time. Over and over again. Don’t stop. Understand that principle.
Hopefully you’ll learn this in due time and won’t be discouraged. It takes a little while. Once you start doing chi sau you will understand it better.
Tom
I have always progreessed fairly quickly and spar quite a bit so even with new concepts Iam fairly comfortable using them. I look forward to Chi Sao. Thank you all for the information.
i think it depends which centre you stick to.
when an attack comes, using footwork and pivoting allows you to use ‘other centres’, being on siulimtao only can give a student a mistaken idea of the full art.
so, if a hook come around to my right, and i stick to the centre in front of me - no good.
step right and take it on the outside + come to opponents centre is better, or step left and take on inside etc.
fitd
Good point. I wish I would have thought about this earlier.
The “Wedge”
Hi Chen Zen…
This is not exact, but it’s the best I can do in writing…
Stand in proper Yi Ji Kim Yeung Mah. Put your arms out in front of you, parallel to the ground. Put your palms together on your centerline. You’ve descibed a triangle from shoulder to shoulder to centerline infront of you.
That’s your wedge.
As long as you are facing your opponent with proper root and structure and you own that wedge of space, you almost always have less distance to travel, and they have to go around.
Not perfect, but does that help?
-Levi
Ok Thank you. I was confused by the mention of the wedge but I understand it now. I gotta say i love this site. Everyone has been respectful and very helpful thank you. Chen Zen
Re: centerline effectiveness
Originally posted by Chen Zen
It seemed to me that Wing Chun was weak against attacks that didnt follow the centerline. Is this just in the beginning? I just started Sil Lum Doa so I am not an advanced Wing Chun artist but I am a skilled fighter.
“Wing Chun was weak”??? It’s presumptuous of you to take on the role of Wing Chun representative, don’t you think? As a beginner who can’t even BEGIN to understand the notion of “centreline”, until possibly after at least 5 years of training(and that’s being generous), you really have no say in how Wing Chun is weak or strong, or is any one thing.
no hard feelings…
Chen Zen didn’t say that WC was weak, but that it “seemed” weak.
There’s a big difference there, and Chen Zen made the right call by stating it as an opinion. Opinions, as personal feelings usually based on personal experience, can’t be right or wrong, they just are.
I’m sure no slight or harm was intented, and none was perceiced on my part.
-Levi
Hello Chen Zen,
I noticed your location says Memphis. I did some work out there several years ago and found one wing chun school which I attended a couple classes just to see what they were like. It was pretty cool. It was on the north side in a dance studio. They were from Francis Fong’s line. Would this be the same school? If so, I have a question about a really cool drill the did.
Memphis is one of the few places I have been to that I miss. A great town!
Tom
Originally posted by Chen Zen
I have always progreessed fairly quickly and spar quite a bit so even with new concepts Iam fairly comfortable using them. I look forward to Chi Sao. Thank you all for the information.
Sorry Chen Zen, I think you missed my point. I’m sure that you are a quick study, however, there is a lot of things that are unseen to you at this time. Do not overlook the subtleties. Sorry to sound like a bad fortune cookie, but enjoy the journey and look beyond the obvious - there is more to the journey than focusing strictly on the destination.
Matrix
If you are not facing the opponent so that he cannot hit you while you own that wedge, You are not capitalizing on the position. That’s why setting up and facing, before the engagement, is so crucial. If you can line up properly before he crosses the go point, you can start out with the shortest distance to target, because he will have to either challenge you head on (bad idea because you have structure and will be able to redirect) or go around (take the long route and give you more time).
Holy smokes. Taltos. Well put. Couldnt have said it better my d@amn self. Chen zen, make sure you understand that before going furhter.
Also, it IS good that you are willing to test your self out with sparring. The’re’s no better substiitute. Just make sure you round it out with proper POSITONING AND STRUCTURE PRACTICE. If he uses circular attacks, definitely tr ot beat him to the pnch, but keep your structur/wedge/guard in the right positon and it wiill be hard for him to get through. There are other ways to deal with circular atacks suck as turning to face them, but this requires more detail than you might be ready for right now. For now, keep it simple. Simultaneous attack & defense is your friend.