Taking the Centerline?
In your lineage what techniques, training routines or drills do you practice to develop intended instincts and habits that will manifest naturally during a fighting scenario…
Sil Lim Tao gives you the center line concepts.
Footwork footwork footwork.
Without proper footwork all the other drills which help take the centerline from the inside or outside like chi sao, pak sao, lap sao, or sparring won’t help one bit.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1195652]Taking the Centerline?
In your lineage what techniques, training routines or drills do you practice to develop intended instincts and habits that will manifest naturally during a fighting scenario…[/QUOTE]
The question itself doesn’t make any sense to me. What do you mean by ‘taking centerline’? To me, it seems you are taking a key concept in WC and, as usual, asking someone to simplify it to some techniques and drills. What’s the point of that? This should be happening in almost every single WC class already! Don’t you train WC?
Asking someone what techniques do we use to drill the idea of centerline is to broad and vague anyway, it’s in almost everything we do in WC!
For example, in HFY we have Occupy Space with Forward Energy concept which directly supports Centerline theories. This idea is drilled and focused on at just about every level in our training. I would have to list almost every single technique, drill and training platform we have! Is that what you are really asking? 
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195711]Footwork footwork footwork.
Without proper footwork all the other drills which help take the centerline from the inside or outside like chi sao, pak sao, lap sao, or sparring won’t help one bit.[/QUOTE]
With a few exceptions, I disagree. While I do agree proper footwork is important, I think we can talk/drill centerline concepts and ideas without really having to mention or use footwork at all.
In most cases, footwork could be viewed as necessary when we lose centerline or centerline has shifted (as a way to reorient/realign/regain it), not as a way to define or drill it. I can ‘have centerline’ and ‘take it’ as yoshi would say without moving at all (or very minimal footwork) - that is what maximum efficiency in WC is all about! If the first thing I am taught to do is use footwork, then I have no clear way of defining A-to-B centerline. And without centerline, there is no WC IMO
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195711]Footwork footwork footwork.
Without proper footwork all the other drills which help take the centerline from the inside or outside like chi sao, pak sao, lap sao, or sparring won’t help one bit.[/QUOTE]
Let’ say it’s more on the ideal of positioning and timing, don’t get me wrong, “footwork” (moving stance) is a very good countermeasure offensively/defensively but; without good timing and positioning “footwork” is useless and the feet will not follow the hands naturally.
Therefore resorting to the idea of speed only; in which could put and keep you in a bad situation; because positioning and timing can deal with speed… In ‘wing chun’ there is a saying; “he goes fast, you go slow, he goes hard, you go soft; all based strongly on the concepts of jamming, wedging, positioning and timing…
Let’s take the whole ideal and premise into everyday life. Timing/Speed: Timing will put you in the right position, while speed will put you in a situation of haste. Positioning: Positioning by design (combat,) is to be up front or first, in which is usually derived from timing; like the everyday saying, “I was in the right place, at the right time”…
It’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension. It doesn’t matter which way you step, as long as these two attributes are first (positioning/timing). And with that being said: ‘Mon Sao drills’ (asking hands) while using the 8 blocks and strikes would be most affective to develop a strong awareness of the centerline in applacation.
I was taught that posture/structure is the forerunner of positioning that supplements timing which helps educes speed. The gears in a watch can help produce the right time; but if the gears are not flushed then the watch will run too fast or slow and the hands of the watch will never be in the right position of showing time, then it would be consider broken.
The ‘Mon Sao drills’ (centerline development) upper extremities are the gears, while the “foot work” (moving stance) would be consider the hands of the watch. Again; it’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension.
[QUOTE=Ali. R;1195840]Therefore resorting to the idea of speed only; in which could put and keep you in a bad situation; because positioning and timing can deal with speed… In ‘wing chun’ there is a saying; “he goes fast, you go slow, he goes hard, you go soft; all based strongly on the concepts of jamming, wedging, positioning and timing…[/QUOTE]
For me, it’s all about space and time (yes, geeky.)
Occupy space, dominate time.
To me, speed is of utmost importance; but, it’s not about physical speed, but how quickly to complete the task required.
So focus on simple efficient and effective tasks, a step at a time, and you will always be faster than an in-efficient opponent.
Both Ali and Imperial have pretty good points!!! I learn alot thanks guys!!!
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1195915]For me, it’s all about space and time (yes, geeky.)
Occupy space, dominate time.
To me, speed is of utmost importance; but, it’s not about physical speed, but how quickly to complete the task required.
So focus on simple efficient and effective tasks, a step at a time, and you will always be faster than an in-efficient opponent.[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=Ali. R;1195840]Let’ say it’s more on the ideal of positioning and timing, don’t get me wrong, “footwork” (moving stance) is a very good countermeasure offensively/defensively but; without good timing and positioning “footwork” is useless and the feet will not follow the hands naturally.
Therefore resorting to the idea of speed only; in which could put and keep you in a bad situation; because positioning and timing can deal with speed… In ‘wing chun’ there is a saying; “he goes fast, you go slow, he goes hard, you go soft; all based strongly on the concepts of jamming, wedging, positioning and timing…
Let’s take the whole ideal and premise into everyday life. Timing/Speed: Timing will put you in the right position, while speed will put you in a situation of haste. Positioning: Positioning by design (combat,) is to be up front or first, in which is usually derived from timing; like the everyday saying, “I was in the right place, at the right time”…
It’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension. It doesn’t matter which way you step, as long as these two attributes are first (positioning/timing). And with that being said: ‘Mon Sao drills’ (asking hands) while using the 8 blocks and strikes would be most affective to develop a strong awareness of the centerline in applacation.
I was taught that posture/structure is the forerunner of positioning that supplements timing which helps educes speed. The gears in a watch can help produce the right time; but if the gears are not flushed then the watch will run too fast or slow and the hands of the watch will never be in the right position of showing time, then it would be consider broken.
The ‘Mon Sao drills’ (centerline development) upper extremities are the gears, while the “foot work” (moving stance) would be consider the hands of the watch. Again; it’s not how fast, but how well one can execute his/her intension.[/QUOTE]
Good Point JPnaz…I agree. I like how you are explaining things.
I would add to that…That protecting my centerline I want to face my opponent but not run dead into him. But flank either with footwork or with proper posistion and yes technique which could shift his attacking line from my centerline. But allowing me dominat posistion of having access to his CL…
Like for instance. With footwork I step to blind side of his lead hand while pressing forward with my stance simultaneously jamming his lead hand or lead strike while counter striking at the same time. This here gives me his center. But i continue to dominate and control his center because once he looses the dominate posistion he will be fighting to escape and manuever out of that compromising posistion. So then I attempt to utilize my tools continously to keep him there in a compromise posistion while constantly jamming, striking an advancing with my horse into his centre!
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1195824]With a few exceptions, I disagree. While I do agree proper footwork is important, I think we can talk/drill centerline concepts and ideas without really having to mention or use footwork at all.
In most cases, footwork could be viewed as necessary when we lose centerline or centerline has shifted (as a way to reorient/realign/regain it), not as a way to define or drill it. I can ‘have centerline’ and ‘take it’ as yoshi would say without moving at all (or very minimal footwork) - that is what maximum efficiency in WC is all about! If the first thing I am taught to do is use footwork, then I have no clear way of defining A-to-B centerline. And without centerline, there is no WC IMO[/QUOTE]
[QUOTE=JPinAZ;1195824]With a few exceptions, I disagree. While I do agree proper footwork is important, I think we can talk/drill centerline concepts and ideas without really having to mention or use footwork at all.
In most cases, footwork could be viewed as necessary when we lose centerline or centerline has shifted (as a way to reorient/realign/regain it), not as a way to define or drill it. I can ‘have centerline’ and ‘take it’ as yoshi would say without moving at all (or very minimal footwork) - that is what maximum efficiency in WC is all about! If the first thing I am taught to do is use footwork, then I have no clear way of defining A-to-B centerline. And without centerline, there is no WC IMO[/QUOTE]
Your centerline exists regardless of where you step. And regardless of where you step you should be facing your opponent so you’re on target.
But I can step in, jam you, and take your center without using my hands; just footwork.
Hands are secondary. You can trap without hands but not without feet. If you can trap and hit without stepping then you’re already in range to hit and there’s no need or point to trap. Footwork let’s you move into range to hit and generate power. If your footwork is bad I don’t care what your hands are like I can throw you out easily.
Footwork first, hands second.
There’s some thing’s about timing that I’d love to see when applied on my opponent’s before the first hit in which they do see coming; they can’t help but stand there like a deer in the headlight.
And after the shellacking I’d had one guy say, “It’s like being hit with a 300lb waterbed that exploded around me on impact”.
When timing is mastered, it would be terribly hard for your opponent to even think about catching up to your next movement; and with that alone (timing) compounded with a solid strike, your opponent’s ‘data entry’ would be forever so slow and incomplete.
It’s feels like you’re getting your but kicked across the ‘Rubicon’ there and back, and it’s nothing that you can do about it, but watch. One guy here in Louisville said this after a rude awakening, “while I’m at home getting hammered, she out getting nailed”. It’s a sad, sad, situation.
And you should be able to do the same going twice as slow as your opponent. That’s why I truly love the concept on timing.
[QUOTE=imperialtaichi;1195915]For me, it’s all about space and time (yes, geeky.)
Occupy space, dominate time.
To me, speed is of utmost importance; but, it’s not about physical speed, but how quickly to complete the task required.
So focus on simple efficient and effective tasks, a step at a time, and you will always be faster than an in-efficient opponent.[/QUOTE]
Uh oh, you’re starting to sound like a Hung Fa Yi guy now!! :eek:
(And being one, this actually makes perfect sense to me and IMO is what WCK is really all about!)
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195960]Your centerline exists regardless of where you step.[/QUOTE]
Agreed! But this is only true for self centerline, given you haven’t distorted it when you moved. I was specificly talking about more than just this your self centerline. I figured this was a given 
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195960] And regardless of where you step you should be facing your opponent so you’re on target.[/QUOTE]
Agreed again. Still not what I was talking about becuase facing and self centerline isn’t all there is to ‘A-to-B centerline’. Without at least one set reference point as constant (which you can’t have if both you and your opponent are moving), it’s pretty impossible to have any real A-to-B engagement centerline - you’ll always be chasing it.
Why start running around with needless footwork if you can just stand your ground and deal with the attack as it comes and then react to the energies you feel on the bridge and only move if you have too? (feet follow the hands)
Is this not taught at your school?
And I’m not trying to be smart, I ask because moving around and using footwork needlessly without even attempting to deal with the initial attack on centerline just sounds so foreign to me. I’m also not advocating NEVER moving pre contact, that would be silly. But if the original centerline is still intact, why give up your reference point?
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195960] But I can step in, jam you, and take your center without using my hands; just footwork.[/QUOTE]
Haha, I’d really like to see a clip of your idea of you dealing with real punches being thrown at your with your hands down and just running around with footwork. Not saying it can’t be done, but sure would be entertaining to see!
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195960]Hands are secondary. You can trap without hands but not without feet. If you can trap and hit without stepping then you’re already in range to hit and there’s no need or point to trap. Footwork let’s you move into range to hit and generate power. If your footwork is bad I don’t care what your hands are like I can throw you out easily.
Footwork first, hands second.[/QUOTE]
I tend to think of using my whole body vs just feet or hands (difference between Biu Jong and Jong Sau for example). Neither is primary or secondary IMO, but the saying ‘hands follow feet, feet follow hands’ guides when you should move or not move.
But, if a punch is coming in, I can’t see how you’re going to effectively & efficiently defend on the original A-to-B centerline without putting your hands up, occupying space and deciding what should be done after the bridge is made (given there even is one).
Now, if you chose to leave centerline and just use footwork by running around or away from punches to jam with just your feet , I’d say (with no offence meant) that your ideas centerline & efficiency of WCK greatly differs from mine and we’re at an impass in the discussion 
The hands tells the feet what to do.
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195960]Footwork first, hands second.[/QUOTE]
The feet should always follow the hands and not the other way around and that’s even when kicking, unless the practitioner chooses to stay away and not make bridge contact; while running away and while trying to hit and block well after the fact.
You can’t counter -or- attack without moving the hands first (kicking or striking). Don’t take my word on it, try it yourself; when sparring take your step first and then throw your punch second, and I’m sure you’ll get timed out (countered) very easily, ever time.
[QUOTE=Yoshiyahu;1195954]Good Point JPnaz…I agree. I like how you are explaining things.
I would add to that…That protecting my centerline I want to face my opponent but not run dead into him. But flank either with footwork or with proper posistion and yes technique which could shift his attacking line from my centerline. But allowing me dominat posistion of having access to his CL…
Like for instance. With footwork I step to blind side of his lead hand while pressing forward with my stance simultaneously jamming his lead hand or lead strike while counter striking at the same time. This here gives me his center. But i continue to dominate and control his center because once he looses the dominate posistion he will be fighting to escape and manuever out of that compromising posistion. So then I attempt to utilize my tools continously to keep him there in a compromise posistion while constantly jamming, striking an advancing with my horse into his centre![/QUOTE]
Sure, I guess I can agree with most of this. Things like gate theory and time/space considerations should always be considered.
To better understand what you mean, when you say “With footwork I step to blind side of his lead hand while pressing forward with my stance simultaneously jamming his lead hand or lead strike while counter striking at the same time.” Are you referring to prior to engagement or afterwards based on the energy on the bridge?
The hands tell the feet what to do.
[QUOTE=Bacon;1195960]Footwork first, hands second.[/QUOTE]
The feet should always follow the hands and not the other way around and that’s even when kicking, unless the practitioner chooses to stay away and not make bridge contact; while running away and while trying to hit and block well after the fact.
You can’t counter -or- attack without moving the hands first (kicking or striking). Don’t take my word on it, try it yourself; when sparring take your step first and then throw your punch second, and I’m sure you’ll get timed out (countered) very easily, ever time.
[QUOTE=Ali. R;1196032]The feet should always follow the hands and not the other way around and that’s even when kicking, unless the practitioner chooses to stay away and not make bridge contact; while running away and while trying to hit and block well after the fact.
You can’t counter -or- attack without moving the hands first (kicking or striking). Don’t take my word on it, try it yourself; when sparring take your step first and then throw your punch second, and I’m sure you’ll get timed out (countered) very easily, ever time.[/QUOTE]
I realize this wasn’t directed to me, but only thing I would dissagree with here is saying the feet should always follow the hands. Why paint yourself into a corner with absolutes like ‘always’?
There are many instances when the feet will tell the hands where to go, but I’d agree that since most attacks are in the upper gates, the hands usually are engaging first and giving the feet direction (feet follow hands). But this isn’t the case in all situations and it does work both ways.
I may have different understanding about WC “center line” theory here. If you draw a line from the center of your chest and extend it out, that’s your center line. In
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mirror stance (you and your opponent have different side forward), your center line and your opponent’s center line will have intersection. Whoever can reach to that intersection point will dominate the other’s center line. A simple example is if you can get to the center lines intersection, you can any part of your opponent’s body (walk into his front door).
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uniform stance (you and your opponent have same side forward), your center line and your opponnt’s center line will have no intersection. In order to create that intersection, you will need to move into your opponent’s front door. If you keep move toward your opponent’s side door (the blind side), you will never be able to get to that intersection. You can only attak part of your opponent’s body but not the whole body.
Of course you can stand in YGKYM and have your center line to point at your opponent. Since you can’t control how your oponent may stand, if he stands with side stance, even if you stand in YGKYM, your center line and your opponent’s center line may still not have that intersection. Since you will need proper “footwork” to be able to reach to that “intersection”, the footwork is important in this discussion.
Is this pretty much the WC “center line” theory that others may understand here?
If you step first, you would never have complete balance of power or a good center of gravity, jamming up your own attempt of attack, the feet moves first usually in defense and thats without moving the hands at all.
Just get out of your set and start to walk around and you will see that the hands will move first and thats just a natural reaction of the human body; no matter how hard you try not to make the hands move first, they will anyway; thats only if you move naturally.
The key to all of this is to be natural, just as stepping into a jab; the jab is first because its what youll be stepping into, dont jab into the step, but step into the jab.
Try stepping first (when walking) and then swing your hands afterwards, it would be one of the most awkward things you do all day.
In
- train, your foot push your body, body push your shoulder, shoulder push your elbow, elbow push your hand.
- combat, your elbow chase your hand, shoulder chase your elbow. body chase your shoulder, foot chase your body.