The 3 Centerlines

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Wing Chun
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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1025891]Being so simple, are you saying that what I suggested isn’t simple?

“3 centrelines, gin (facing), pien (angled) and juk (side) san (body) methods.”

[/QUOTE]

From my WC understanding, Jin Sun, Pin Sun refer more to facings and body mechanics rather than the three HFY centerlines. Juk San appears in HFY as Juk San Bo… a footwork technique to face the side as seen in our Bai Jong Baat Bo Gin.

However instead of Jin Sun and Pin Sun we employ Sui Sing Tin Yan Dei and Dai Sing Tin Yan Dei (The little wheel and the big wheel). Otherwise known as 4-gate TYD body mechanics and 6-gate TYD body mechanics.

Very interesting to see the correlations here however. It is after all Wing Chun. :slight_smile:

As for the recent spew of arguing here… Fortunately I was away visiting my folks in Tucson. Glad I missed it to be honest.

As Wayfarring suggested… the 90’s were cool and all, but frankly I’m far more interested in seeing what the 2010’s have to offer.

Count me out of all this bitter rehashing!

Good training to all.

62

If I wanted to be patronizing I would ask you for the Brazilian term for the move as surely BJJ is taught with Brazilian terms, no?

Do you know the Brazilian term for the movement described?

So, you say that if you wanted to be patronizing you’d ask for the Brazilian name, and then shortly after you do exactly that.

You just answered your own question, no?

I don’t speak Portuguese - that, rather than “Brazilian” is what they speak in Brazil, I hope that doesn’t sound patronising - and neither does my instructor. Most Brazilians of my acquaintance do their best to translate everything into the language of the country they are teaching in.

Your facility with language, such as it is, will not stop you getting taken down, guard passed, arm extracted with a phoenix eye fist and armbarred.

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[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1026150]***God, you’re a clown. :stuck_out_tongue:

I don’t care what’s on that vid - I’ve spent enough time with the man to know how he does it when it’s for real…and why it works so well against kicker, in fact.[/QUOTE]

Lol, even when proof is provided you still cling to your belief in fairies.

  1. There is no god.
  2. Yes, I am a clown. If you get too serious, life seems to have a way of getting all together too hard. Why else would humour and laughter be related to the release of endorphins?? I watch videos like that and it makes me laugh.

However, neither of these features precludes me from being right.

WThe explanation you provided actually muddies that water a little.

How can you move fast and freely if your foot can’t leave the floor? Secondly, the arc his hips travel in is curved. Given that VTK relies on straight lines, and economy of movement, how does such a move gel with the remainder of the system?

The simple answer is you can’t, and it doesn’t.

The convoluted answer is that people have swallowed imaginary crap without asking the necessary questions.

Blind faith is worse than stupidity, because it requires active participation.

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Originally Posted by shawchemical

  1. There is no god.
  2. Yes, I am a clown. If you get too serious, life seems to have a way of getting all together too hard. Why else would humour and laughter be related to the release of endorphins?? I watch videos like that and it makes me laugh.

One of the things we should be happy about is that, in this country, we are all free.

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[QUOTE=shawchemical;1026275]Lol, even when proof is provided you still cling to your belief in fairies.

  1. There is no god.
  2. Yes, I am a clown. If you get too serious, life seems to have a way of getting all together too hard. Why else would humour and laughter be related to the release of endorphins?? I watch videos like that and it makes me laugh.

However, neither of these features precludes me from being right.

WThe explanation you provided actually muddies that water a little.

How can you move fast and freely if your foot can’t leave the floor? Secondly, the arc his hips travel in is curved. Given that VTK relies on straight lines, and economy of movement, how does such a move gel with the remainder of the system?

The simple answer is you can’t, and it doesn’t.

The convoluted answer is that people have swallowed imaginary crap without asking the necessary questions.

Blind faith is worse than stupidity, because it requires active participation.[/QUOTE]

***YOU’RE NOW on my IGNORE LIST, shaw chemical. Congratulations. It’s become crystal clear that you’ve got some sort of stick up your a55 - and no matter how much logic might be behind what I tell you - you’re gonna play the “I hate TWC and William Cheung” game.

I have no time for any of that.

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[QUOTE=duende;1026208]From my WC understanding, Jin Sun, Pin Sun refer more to facings and body mechanics rather than the three HFY centerlines. Juk San appears in HFY as Juk San Bo… a footwork technique to face the side as seen in our Bai Jong Baat Bo Gin.

However instead of Jin Sun and Pin Sun we employ Sui Sing Tin Yan Dei and Dai Sing Tin Yan Dei (The little wheel and the big wheel). Otherwise known as 4-gate TYD body mechanics and 6-gate TYD body mechanics.

Very interesting to see the correlations here however. It is after all Wing Chun. :)[/QUOTE]

Yes, they are body mechanic/body facing type concepts. It’s very interesting to hear how you have adopted them into HFY and how HFY also use other more traditional concepts too. :smiley:

[QUOTE=Wayfaring;1026208]Actually, no. Brazilians teach with Brazilian terms, typically English speakers do not. Many Brazilians do not teach with Brazilian terms and do not insist upon whatever Brazilian terms are present being persisted as part of what they teach. Basically they don’t care if you know the name of something.[/QUOTE]

I couldn’t say the same for Wing Chun teaching. Most Sifus I know at least attempt to learn a little cantonese to assist with their undertsanding of the terms they teach with. And the BJJ coach I worked with definitely felt that it was a shame that more BJJ language wasn’t taught as he felt that THAT is what was the true nature of the Gracies style. Especially how to teach it.

Same can be said for the Wing Chun. Translating terms into English has always happened, but to just ‘make up’ or borrow a term and actually teach with it isn’t something I would attempt to do.

There’s an old saying about straying from the source being un-wise. IMHO the original ;source’ of Wing Chun is the language. It’s key to further study and teaching imo.

[QUOTE=Anerlich;1026208]Your facility with language, such as it is, will not stop you getting taken down, guard passed, arm extracted with a phoenix eye fist and armbarred.[/QUOTE]

I actually asked Wayfaring for the Brazilian term, and his response was great. I would hope that my linguistics wouldn’t be required to escape from your suggested attack either.

I think others realize I’m talking about teaching here. Language as a teaching tool. A fighter needs no language at all imo, so I agree with what you’re saying. In fact, when I coached guys their sansau it was numbered first and the terms were just loosley mentioned coz they responded better to number 1 or 3 etc.

None of these students wanted to learn how to teach, so this worked fine. They never picked up the actual terms either so would have to ‘make up’ stuff if they taught anyone to cover their inability.

Sounds very like what has happend in other martial arts too over the years unfortunately… :o

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1026379]Yes, they are body mechanic/body facing type concepts. It’s very interesting to hear how you have adopted them into HFY and how HFY also use other more traditional concepts too. :smiley:
[/QUOTE]

To be clear. We haven’t “adopted” anything. Jin is a common term used in WC such as Jin Gum Sau.

Jin Sun and Pin Sun body expressions like those found in Dr. Lueng Jan’s Kulo Village Wing Chun would be considered San Sau expressions from a HFY pov.

Front and Side Body facings are more of CK knowledge and concepts.

The three centerlines we are referring to here are SNT concepts and expressions. :slight_smile:

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[QUOTE=duende;1026402]To be clear. We haven’t “adopted” anything. Jin is a common term used in WC such as Jin Gum Sau.[/QUOTE]

Cool. Maybe I used the wrong word there! Didn’t mean to rattle ya :wink:

FWIW Gin/Jin is commonly used in the term I use for front body work, gin san. Gin/Jin Gum Sau, I presume, is a name of a technique.

[QUOTE=duende;1026402]Jin Sun and Pin Sun body expressions like those found in Dr. Lueng Jan’s Kulo Village Wing Chun would be considered San Sau expressions from a HFY pov.

Front and Side Body facings are more of CK knowledge and concepts.

The three centerlines we are referring to here are SNT concepts and expressions. :)[/QUOTE]

Interested take on the Kulo system, as I too refer to the majority of the curriculum as sansau. But this is not where our term for these concepts originates. It’s core foundation training (prior to SLT). Again, this isn’t just to highlight Lee Shings system either, as I also know that other senior Sifus/Uncles do not openly use these terms, it’s specific to my training at Jun Mo Wing Chun under Sifu Joseph Man.

These three ‘body structures’ are a way of completing your understanding of chiu yin and tsoy yin, a precursor to the wooden man practises, and I usually introduce them in an interactive way to new students. Snake & Crane partnerships! :smiley:

If you’ve heard of 7 star punching in mantis, I’ve been told the concept is very similar :wink:

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[QUOTE=bennyvt;1026111]Actually Yip man did the pheonix fist. As I said He didn’t teach it to his HK students for several reasons. If you look at most pictures of yip punching he still has the remenence of the pheonix fist. He leanrt it with chan wah shun. Hence the person say it was in the lineage of chan wah shun senior student that mainly taught Yip man as chan wah shun dies early in Yip’s training. The exact reason for why it was taken out is unkown. Going by when and why other system use it you can guess but it is only a guess. I am from a WSL lineage so I am not biased in any way.
In china when chi saoing you will find they tend to do it alot. Including gwok Fu and lung Gai (his first students, Gwok Fu is famous in Fut san as being Yip man fighter) They tend to slip it over the tan sao with a pivot or step slightly to the side. You would not beleive the amount of people it catches. I tend to think about the pheonix fist being like the first movement in CK. The finger strike. This makes more sense when done with a pheonix fist. The elbow slides over the arm while still keeping control. So where a normal vertical punch would jam the pheonix fist comes over while controling and can hit. It was traditionally used for meridan points but in WSL VT or just normal people the point hitting is generally not beleived.[/QUOTE]

Benny,

With all due respect, trying to use pictures as proof of Yip Mans actions is a little ridiculous IMO. If you were there then ok ……If there were a “phoenix eye” punch in VT all those years ago then fine. It’s not now so that’s all we should be concerned about. I’m interested to know why he didn’t teach it to his HK students though.

Slipping something over Tan Sau and stepping to the side totally contradicts my thinking on VT so no point in trying to discuss. As you should be aware, Tan Sau is for training the punch in WSLVT and not to try and block arms.

In the system of WSLVT that I practice, the movement you refer to in Chum Kiu is not a finger strike but maybe that can wait until another discussion.

This whole idea of using the “phoenix eye” punch to specifically hit certain areas on the body is nonsense. There is no time in fighting to do such things…………of course this is my opinion.

GH

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This whole idea of using the “phoenix eye” punch to specifically hit certain areas on the body is nonsense. There is no time in fighting to do such things…………of course this is my opinion.

If you can hit a specific area with a regular fist, what makes the PE fist any different?

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[QUOTE=Graham H;1026637]… If there were a “phoenix eye” punch in VT all those years ago then fine. It’s not now so that’s all we should be concerned about. I’m interested to know why he didn’t teach it to his HK students though.[/QUOTE]

That’s the key. Knowing where it originates would explain why Ip Man didn’t teach it to his, let’s just say, more commercial students in HK. Who knows? Maybe he didn’t teach it to anyone. Maybe even he didn’t know where it originated from. :o

This is quite boring now, why bother to discuss something when NOBODY can even answer a simple question!

And with all respect, from an earlier post I read, WSL doesn’t have tok sau in his system either. Personally, I can’t imagine having no tok sau. It’s fundamental to develop certain attributes (which is a whole other discussion)

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You can use the PE as a body shot, btw…lots of target. Got to be in a 45 degree angle, though…(palm facing upward).

And as for straight PE strikes to the face (again, at 45 degress)…it can be done. And very dangerous, imo. Wouldn’t even think of doing that unless I felt it I was in real danger. Hard to control it. You go into someone’s eye with this, and they could be in real trouble. Much more reliable than bil jee strikes (very over-rated)…fingers are very vulnerable.

Now of course, the real question is: Can you get the opening for the strike(s) to connect?

Ah yes, those little details. :smiley:

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WSL has and teaches tok sao. This is used in the dummy especially.
I did make a point of the importance of the pheonix fist in the WSL or latter yip stuednts. You said that it wasn’t in the Yip system. I just said it was. The reason you mentioned is one of the reason why it is not used. It has less elbow control. You find if you just face the strike or block slightly further it doesn’t work alot. there are other reasons but as too why Yip changed it only he could tell you.

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[QUOTE=bennyvt;1026838]WSL has and teaches tok sao. This is used in the dummy especially.
I did make a point of the importance of the pheonix fist in the WSL or latter yip stuednts. You said that it wasn’t in the Yip system. I just said it was. The reason you mentioned is one of the reason why it is not used. It has less elbow control. You find if you just face the strike or block slightly further it doesn’t work alot. there are other reasons but as too why Yip changed it only he could tell you.[/QUOTE]

Benny

If you have been taught that then its ok. Its no big deal. Its not Tok Sau for me. his action has other meanings. I’ll quote a piece of an interview that my instructor gave…

Sifu I am going to list a few techniques and concepts. Briefly state
in one sentence a important point for each techniques in relation to
combat.

Tan sau trains your punch
Bong sau open the way for striking
Fook sau trains your punch
Pak sau open the way for striking
Kwan sau trains your punch
Tok sau (we dont have)
Poon sau (exchange of force)
Fak sau (striking)
Lap sau (open the way for striking)
Yee gee kim yum ma (training stance .. to conditioning the foot
and knee position for supporting the punch)
Jum sau trains your punch

By the way… you didn’t ask me about the most important
technique(principle) , the
straight punch!?!

So maybe in all the years that he was taught by WSL, Tok Sau was not discussed :D. Anyway I find it a pointless argument. You have Tok Sau…I don’t…We will still survive!!! :smiley:

GH

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tok sao is considered an ‘upwards’ lifting energy by a few thats fine , they dont share the same fighting ideas…thats why we don’t do the ‘name’ tok we do elbow recovery / tan saos under the dummy arms to recover from the preceding juts sao’s above the dummy arms… the thinking is to bring elbows back in with ‘ging’ force forwards after doing a jut that makes elbows move out , back to striking elbows in…names/translations can be misleading if you dont know the WHOLE idea, you can get fragmented ‘application’ ideas .

strike ,jut,strike, jut, strike …

Like the Tan and Jut arm/elbow sequence in Chum Kil, cycling from tan then a jut on the tan energy that is also going forwards with shock force as the jut cycles to make its ‘energy’ back on the arm below it, also moving forwards …each is ‘alive’ in opposite directions , we do this on the dummy arms…so no tok :smiley: no upwards energy . If we miss with a jut we simply stay online striking, not going upwards into empty space…feinting will prove this in sparring.

This action has been presented as arm breaking [elbow joint], but this is ‘application’ thinking. You can do anything in MA’s if the opponent ‘allows’ it :smiley: . Hand stand with a reverse heel kick to a guys head…why not ? :smiley:

Energy cant be ‘seen’ by students sometimes, if an action isnt explained fully or the ‘energy’ of the elbows/arms actions explained, the ‘visual’ actions will dominate the students mind. IOW if the energy of a sequence isnt explained, then the movement can be misleading, leaving out critical elbow energy. Leaving the less informed students who didnt fight much with all kinds of inefficient ‘wristing’ force, lifting wrists up, down, sideways, along the centerline. Opening up channels of potential striking attacks…rather than striking , punching flowing attacking ideas, ways to keep making attacks.

sparring can usually show the mistaken ideas, not chi-sao.

imo so called vt PE strikes are a by-product of a fist shape rather than design. IOW how we hold a fist can produce an extended knuckle, but this doesnt mean its the impact surface. My old VT sifu would use this as a joking rib ‘dig’ into the intercostal muscles of the ribs …to show a ‘gotcha’ rather than a real fighting full on strike. Sure it will work if you stick a knuckle in a guys eye, why not ?:smiley: Ive used finger strikes in bar fights to good effect, for the ‘distance’ it gives you when facing 2-3 guys in a encroaching line advancing on you :smiley: a knuckle doesnt have that ‘distance’ idea…but hey if your in need …unleash it ! it sounds kinda ‘hitn miss’ as far as percentage factors go.

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[QUOTE=LoneTiger108;1026716]I can’t imagine having no tok sau. It’s fundamental to develop certain attributes (which is a whole other discussion)[/QUOTE]

Such as???

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[QUOTE=sanjuro_ronin;1026665]If you can hit a specific area with a regular fist, what makes the PE fist any different?[/QUOTE]

The difference between a stomp kick while wearing a sneaker and a stomp kick while wearing stilettos..

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[QUOTE=YungChun;1027041]The difference between a stomp kick while wearing a sneaker and a stomp kick while wearing stilettos..

[/QUOTE]

the wrist action under normal striking is opposite to digging a PE knuckle down and into a target. Our 3 lower knuckles are aligning and ‘digging’ into the target , not pivoting down to make the index fingers knuckle the point of impact…

The elbows are the reason for the angle of the fists knuckle, the mechanics of a PE strike seems to contradict this elbow idea.

can we see the rest of her ? :smiley: not into feet :wink: more a t & b man myself :smiley:

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1027029]tok sao is considered an ‘upwards’ lifting energy by a few thats fine , they dont share the same fighting ideas…thats why we don’t do the ‘name’ tok we do elbow recovery / tan saos under the dummy arms to recover from the preceding juts sao’s above the dummy arms… the thinking is to bring elbows back in with ‘ging’ force forwards after doing a jut that makes elbows move out , back to striking elbows in…names/translations can be misleading if you dont know the WHOLE idea, you can get fragmented ‘application’ ideas .[/QUOTE]

I always understood the toksau to be ‘lifting’, yes, but as far as just lifting ‘upwards’ I would think that’s a bad idea as you mention. I move forward and upwards with the toksau and personally have seen a shoulder pushed through and out of joint from a harsh drill back in the hall. It’s a very effective tool against chunkuen and one of the core defenses/set-ups, not so unlike jutsau really.

Now the reason I suggested its fundamental to develop other attributes is because it’s motion is (or let’s say ‘can be’!) the exact opposite of chunkuen, whereas chunkuen is a yang (yeurng) motion, toksau is yin (yum). They perfectly compliment eachother and are used together to first practise interactions. A signature tan munsau imho…

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[QUOTE=k gledhill;1027060]the wrist action under normal striking is opposite to digging a PE knuckle down and into a target. Our 3 lower knuckles are aligning and ‘digging’ into the target , not pivoting down to make the index fingers knuckle the point of impact…

The elbows are the reason for the angle of the fists knuckle, the mechanics of a PE strike seems to contradict this elbow idea.

can we see the rest of her ? :smiley: not into feet :wink: more a t & b man myself :D[/QUOTE]

Well hey it’s not about the wristing right? So why not use the elbow much the same way as you flick the PE? Similar action as in jum chopping back to the line as in BJ except bring the elbow in and flick wrist down instead of wrist up or open…