How could you have 3 center lines? I was taught that if I stuck my arms directly out in front of my shoulders, the space between them is my center line. Say arm pit to arm pit. If you just keep it simple, it is easier to learn because it is easier to teach.
simple works, its the ‘space’ around the line thats our focus. The line is simply a reference point.
the ‘gates’ are meant to be areas we associate force to move through. We dont stay in the middle of opponents lines of force apex …where to move, timing, distance becomes the goal. Our line gives us the reference point to judge the line of force. Right,Left, crossing the line. Our chi-sao takes on this role playing for mutual development.
If you adopt ‘sticky’ attached wrist bs …you wont see the spatial gates.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1024564]In Yip Man WCK, we say that at a distance, the shoulder is the centerline.
In the pole, we use the shoulder lines extensively.
[/QUOTE]
Can you explain this please because I practice Ip Man Lineage Ving Tsun and I’ve never hard this before.
GH
[QUOTE=Graham H;1025057]Can you explain this please because I practice Ip Man Lineage Ving Tsun and I’ve never hard this before.
GH[/QUOTE]
Hi Graham,
May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, “Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng” (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).
I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.
Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.
The Leung Bik story may be fictional.
If so, what would Yip Man be a traitor of?
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1024510]WANT TO MAKE A THREAD OUT OF THIS:
I have found that the use of CENTERLINE principles enhances the boxing that I use…
and by using boxing in conjunction with the CENTERLINE principles…my wing chun is enhanced.
In the standup striking/kicking game, that is.
Boxing from long range (aided and abetted by boxing type footwork and long range kicks)…gets me to close range…where wing chun takes the ball…
until if and when a clinch comes into play…then it’s wrestling and some Muay Thai…and yes, possibly mixed with wing chun if some separation takes place…
and/or some boxing hooks, uppercuts, and dirty boxing (hold and strike)…which is clearly a close cousin to wing chun simultaneous block and strike at close range anyway.
AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:
My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line…and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line…
and at very close range…these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.
So I’m using three centerlines…(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).
And when the three centerlines are used…quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional
(ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)
……………………………………………….
FOLLOWED BY THIS FROM WAYFARING:
Originally Posted by Ultimatewingchun:
“AND BY CENTERLINE PRINCIPLES I MEAN THIS:My right arm is fighting his left for domination and control of the right shoulder line…and my left arm is fighting his right for domination and control of my left shoulder line…and at very close range…these shoulder lines are given up and the MAIN CENTERLINE (down the middle of my body) is now the PRIMARY FOCUS.So I’m using three centerlines…(sometimes referred to in their totality as the CENTRAL LINE).And when the three centerlines are used…quite a bit of wing chun becomes functional (ie.- pak, lop, tan, bil, jut, garn, bong, lan, huen, chuen, low heel kicks, and even multiple vertical fist chain punches.)”
Hey Victor,
Props for your explanation of the TWC central line. I know a lot of people say HFY and TWC are so similar, but I’ve never encountered that concept and didn’t really understand it.
Your description of the goals and range specifically make it really clear, better than anything I’ve seen posted on it before.
…
AND THEN THIS:
***THANKS.
You know, it’s only recently that I’ve started describing the central line in this way for myself and my students. So much can easily be lost or misunderstood in wing chun if you don’t try to simplify the concepts and principles - and by that I mean just cut them down to the essentials.
There’s more that could be said about the central line - but I think that the “three centerlines” way of describing it hits all of the most important bases.[/QUOTE]
***SO TONY JACOBS… how would you relate what you wrote in post#16 to the above?
What’s different? What’s the same?
shoulder becomes centerline for using the pole simply because the concept of facing has to change. By definition there can only be one center of an area, therefore only one centerline, other lines can be used for reference but they are not the center. Guess I’m just arguing definitions, the reference points by any name are a good idea.
The pole always points at the opponent as you move around…
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1025253]***SO TONY JACOBS… how would you relate what you wrote in post#16 to the above?
What’s different? What’s the same?[/QUOTE]
Well, I’m not Tony Jacobs, but I’ll take a stab at it.
From the historical standpoint, we’ve got out two separate lineages. The Hung Gun Biu Red Boxer line and the Wong Wa Bo Red Opera line. The split occurred, or existed prior to the 1800’s, the details of which are probably lost to antiquity. In the Wong Wa Bo line, going down to Yip Man the way the information typically works is that you start with Siu Nim Tao and the go into some form of Chi Sao. In the Hung Gun Biu line, you also start with Siu Nim Tao, but then instead of going into chi sao, we work to understand Box Theory. (How this relates to centerline is coming)
One of the key ways the Hung Fa Yi line can demonstrate this is in the opening moves of the Mook Ya Jong short bridge dummy. This starts by the practitioner reaching out to touch the dummy arms to establish Box Theory. This helps us to establish what is inside our space and outside of our space. Once we have established the box, we can move into the Bai Jong section. For HFY, Bai Jong isn’t just the technique of sticking your hand out. It’s the ability to establish the three centerlines for engagement w/ the Kiu Sao, which is where the discussion of the three centerlines begins.
The HFY Saam Dim Yat Sin Centerline is a self reference check, it is born out of Hung Fa Yi’s wing chun formula and HFY’s 3 points-1 line theory. This is structurally how we learn to line up for the pieces to be considered correct.
The HFY A-B centerline is how we establish engagement for outside the box. This includes pieces known as HFY 4gate/6gate Tien Yan Dei Theory which, as Tony pointed out, differs from Chi Sim/Animal style Tien Yan Dei. For HFY Kiu Sao Chi sao to exist it needs the individual components of Proper Engagement, Body Method, and Joint power. All these elements combine to form the proper engagement of the A-B centerline (or not if you miss a piece).
The HFY Gee Ng Kiu centerline is an energetic concept, focusing on how to control both your own and opponent’s center of gravity. It’s useful both for determining how much energy is “a bridge too far” for yourself and where you can target your opponent’s balance.
Now to contrast those idea with what I’ve seen of the TWC dummy, they start 3-4 feet back and then focus on centerline initially as a range tool to measure the use of the TWC hopping entry technique with a harassing biu sao. This is altogether a different intention than what I described above, to a HFY standard we call this “floating bridging” because you’re not really connected to anything when you jump off the ground. So if that’s an application of the Central Line between you and the opponent, TWC Central Line and HFY 3 Centerline theory don’t equate in that moment.
Reading what you’ve written Victor you’re using what you’ve termed the 3 centerlines as more of a facing tool for either a rule of “What techniques work in the range relative to my opponent” or “What does my facing support based on where I am at” not sure if its that or a combination of the two.
“Reading what you’ve written Victor you’re using what you’ve termed the 3 centerlines as more of a facing tool for either a rule of “What techniques work in the range relative to my opponent” or “What does my facing support based on where I am at” not sure if its that or a combination of the two.” (Eric H)
…
***THE FACING TOOL, as you put it, becomes very pronounced - and yet more simplified - when I reach a close distance, and now want to face my main centerline directly at his COM and go to work.
But from the longer ranges, what I’m doing with the concept of using my right arm to battle his left for control of my right shoulder line - and using my left arm to battle his right for control of my left shoulder line…is not “facing” in the same way as when I’m using my main centerline from close range.
It’s similar, but there are some big differences as well.
Yes, they are a facing tool, that’s true…but they are playing a much more involved game when I’m at a distance - because the extra space factors equates to more possible lines of engagement and more possible types of attacks (and techniques) that can be used.
In other words, more can happen from here. Including combinations that include kicks and punches, more footwork patterns can be in play…but most of all - many more angles for various types of punches can be thrown…
and at different speeds/ broken rhythms/stop and starts…which of course now means more possible timing issues will pop up…and different degrees of power on the strikes and kicks as well.
There’s a lot more going on at the non-contact range…
that using just one centerline will not address.
I hope that makes my position clearer.
So you see, I’m addressing time, space, and energy issues - and giving all three of them the importance and respect they require.
whoaw…
[QUOTE=chusauli;1025245]In Yip Man WCK, we say that at a distance, the shoulder is the centerline.
In the pole, we use the shoulder lines extensively.[/QUOTE]
For a minute there, it sounded like he knows a little something about the subject, speaking from ‘In Yip man WCK, we say…’. But then, when asked to elaborate even a little bit from someone also in Yip Man circles who’s never heard of this, I read this jem:
[QUOTE=chusauli;1025245]May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, “Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng” (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).
I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.
Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.[/QUOTE]
HAHAHA - when asked to elaborate on a saying he brought up and included himself in, he couldn’t even explain one thing - only what he’s interpreting from a book and then asked some people about! Is this how a WC ‘expert’ learns his WC or gains his information??? Doesn’t any of this guy’s information come from actually studying under a Sifu? All he’s got is interpretations?!?
Dam, it’s center line, it’s not that complicated! This is the first and main concept in WC training! A beginner could give more information, and all he can do is quote some saying and make guesses?? :rolleyes:
Seriously, this is what a ‘sifu’ that’s been teaching WC for over 30 years has to offer on the subject - guess at simple things and talk about what he’s ‘interpreted’ from books?!?
Good lord!
I can only wonder what’s in this guy’s ‘Mastering WC’ DVD’s if he can’t even explain centerline concept past 'We have a saying… well really, I just read it in a book, and took a best guess at it and asked around and - wait, on second thought, maybe you could ask someone who actually knows… then if they post up an answer, maybe I’ll finally learn the answer myself… then next time I can really act like I know what I’m talking about"
:eek:
[QUOTE=Ultimatewingchun;1025443]
***THE FACING TOOL, as you put it, becomes very pronounced - and yet more simplified - when I reach a close distance, and now want to face my main centerline directly at his COM and go to work.
But from the longer ranges, what I’m doing with the concept of using my right arm to battle his left for control of my right shoulder line - and using my left arm to battle his right for control of my left shoulder line…is not “facing” in the same way as when I’m using my main centerline from close range.
It’s similar, but there are some big differences as well.
Yes, they are a facing tool, that’s true…but they are playing a much more involved game when I’m at a distance - because the extra space factors equates to more possible lines of engagement and more possible types of attacks (and techniques) that can be used.
In other words, more can happen from here. Including combinations that include kicks and punches, more footwork patterns can be in play…but most of all - many more angles for various types of punches can be thrown…
and at different speeds/ broken rhythms/stop and starts…which of course now means more possible timing issues will pop up…and different degrees of power on the strikes and kicks as well.
There’s a lot more going on at the non-contact range…
that using just one centerline will not address.
I hope that makes my position clearer.
So you see, I’m addressing time, space, and energy issues - and giving all three of them the importance and respect they require.[/QUOTE]
Victor,
That does make your position clearer. To reiterate your point as I get it, you’re talking about a flexible rule set for how to engage each limb/side of the opponent at different ranges, taking into the consideration the tools and timing of each. Assuming I’ve got your point correct, how would/could that be expressed at the beginning of the TWC dummy form?
Just as a comparison, I think both HFY and TWC demonstrate one key thing to support centerline much more closely than the other WC lines, and that’s the knee function. In the other Yip Man lines (as i learned it) the dummy has more sliding footwork to make up the distance, where as HFY picks up the knee to move and engage the Kiu Sao and TWC picks up the knee for the entry technique. The two lines (Wong Wa Bo-TWC and Hung Gun Biu-HFY) do separate on what they consider the correct usage of the knee with centerline though.
As I touched on before, it seems TWC uses centerline an imaginary targeting line for the basis of the hop in the entry technique which is a very committed motion. It cover a great deal of distance but doesn’t leave much ability to adjust once you’re airborne. That’s the key reason we in HFY would call that floating bridging, for our Kiu Sao centerline to be born correctly we need to be able to engage and adjust with the changing engagement. This goes back to what I said above about HFY’s Box theory, its part of how the Hung Gun Biu line defines the different reactionary spaces. Generally, we don’t describe things as pre-contact to contact as you have above. Instead we discuss moving from Bai Jong Centerline to Jeet Kiu Centerline, making sure there’s no time delay and that we can stay true (to our rule set) to the type of engagement that comes up. That’s more of a tactical discussion though getting into HFY’s 5 battle array strategy and gets away from the original point.
This is a neat discussion, I like to hear the TWC perspective on things because they also appear to have a straight line back to the 1800’s just inside the Wong Wa Bo lineage vs the Hung Gun Biu one.
I dont get the chan wah shun is wc and leung bik is TWC. They learnt off the same guy, leung jan. Talking to people in hong kong they say china does the wong wah bo stuff, talking to main land they say they are doing the leung bik stuff. Gwok fu talked about the changes he made to their teaching when he got back from china. Whether it was leung bik or just Yip man getting better we will never know. Things like the pheonix fist which is still in main land but yip didn’t teach it in HK. The change of the garn sao in the last half of SLT. He learnt garn sao off chan wah shun as he was tall but only taught jum sao in hong kong as this was from leung bik and he thought it more direct, hand closer to target etc.
Only through WSL fighting did it come back to the system. With the WSL system doing both in SLT.
“As I touched on before, it seems TWC uses centerline an imaginary targeting line for the basis of the hop in the entry technique which is a very committed motion. It covers a great deal of distance but doesn’t leave much ability to adjust once you’re airborne. That’s the key reason we in HFY would call that floating bridging, for our Kiu Sao centerline to be born correctly we need to be able to engage and adjust with the changing engagement.” (Eric H)
…
***AND ONE of the big points about the TWC Entry technique that MANY people just don’t get (you know, like trying to talk about things they really don’t know much about :D)…
is that the back foot never really leaves the ground.
The heel is lifted as you push off for momentum - but the ball and toe area of the foot slides across the floor - while the lead knee is raised up to protect the lower gates.
So it’s not really meant to cover a great deal of distance, just enough to get you from non-contact range to contact. In other words, it’s a way to “bridge the gap” safely…because each gate is being covered with a shield: the raised knee, and both arms (the rear hand at the middle gate and lead hand covering/shielding the upper gate).
Part of what William Cheung calls INTERRUPTABILITY. When you’re not completely airborne, you can control, interrupt, stop, and quickly put the lead foot down in order to modify your positioning by changing your direction.
[QUOTE=chusauli;1025245]Hi Graham,
May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, “Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng” (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).
I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.
Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.[/QUOTE]
Hi Robert
Ok, Thanks.
GH
I trained directly with Moy Yat for 8 years. And he did talk about the shoulder as being the centerline when using the dragon pole (staff).
[QUOTE=chusauli;1025245]Moy Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, “Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng” (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).
I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.
Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.[/QUOTE]That would apply for the pole, but assumes that from afar one would adopt a “bladed” posture.
I guess it is common sense. If we are “side on” then a line drawn from our spine to the opponent’s spine must come through the shoulder.
[QUOTE=bennyvt;1025583]I dont get the chan wah shun is wc and leung bik is TWC. They learnt off the same guy, leung jan. Talking to people in hong kong they say china does the wong wah bo stuff, talking to main land they say they are doing the leung bik stuff.[/QUOTE]
That’s part of what I was trying o say way back. Leung Jan is the man. 
Link your family to him, mostly via Ip Man, and you’re onto the goods as far as Wing Chun is concerned imho.
[QUOTE=Chusauli;1025583]May Yat wrote in his Kuen Kuit book, “Juk San Ye, Bok Wei Ng” (When in side body, shoulder becomes the centerline).
I interpreted and consulted with some of my then Si Hing and Si Suk and got the interpretation it is when you are facing from afar or distance, the shoulder line becomes the centerline - this is used in the 6.5 point pole.
Perhaps some of the Moy Yat people can explain it better. I would be up to learn more.[/QUOTE]
You know I’m not from Moy Yat, but I think if you want to understand what juk san is, you must have trained it in empty hand as well as the pole. And I have said this before on conversations about the centre line too. Training the concept with weapons as well as the empty hands.
3 centrelines, gin (facing), pien (angled) and juk (side) san (body) methods. I think I mentioned before that this is why I couldn’t grasp the idea of Pien San WCK in Kulo, as this to me is just the study of ‘angled body’ and not ‘side body’ WCK that was propogated. Side body WCK is a specialisation of the pole imho.
Then we get onto what constitutes the 3 centrelines in TWC, and I’m finding it hard to understand because I wouldn’t have understood what the hell my Sifu was talking about had he not physically shown me! 
I think we may all be on a similar page here, but someone needs to start talking in trigonometry terms or we all are just guessing aren’t we?
My first posture with the pole is definitely in juk san, and yes we use the shoulders as our base line. 2 straight lines from the shoulders to the tip of the pole creates a triangle, unlike the equallateral triangle experienced in gin san when you join your palms together in front of the body. Draw a line from your heart/spine to the tip of the pole and this is a centreline. This centreline projects from you to the opponent, and it can strike them anywhere. If you want to unbalance them, the whole structure of the pole must drive through their COG (which depending on them is normally NEVER in their centre!)
Aw cr4p! Reading even that back to myself and I think I’ve over done it… 
Maybe this is something only diagrams can explain…
Things like the pheonix fist which is still in main land but yip didn’t teach it in HK.
A long time ago in a galaxy far far away I attended a William Cheung seminar where he explored the use of the phoenix eye fist in great detail.
Whether he learned it from YM is something else, it’s not exactly rare or hard to come across, but it is definitely part of TWC.
some of his guys, gwok fu etc do it. I read that william did some stuff with lun Gai but not sure.
The side body things means when you are in a side body stance for several reason the shoulder is the elbow. seems simple. like when turned the elbow becomes the centre. There can be times when you have to fight in a more of a boxing facing and then the shoulder is your centre.
Maybe you should have askedand waited for an answer without making one up.