Tai Zu Chang Quan - info?

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
61

[QUOTE=Eugene;993166]Is Generals Qi Jiguang`s Qi Quanjing 32 postures, practiced today ?

I downloaded the translation yesterday, and the 32 lyrics seems if someone is a master at knowing all the stance names etc, the set is * Do`able ? is that a good english word even ?

Peace[/QUOTE]

Reply]
I know someone who does these postures as a set, and it looks very good from what I see.

I also know that the Nanjing Kuoshu (I think it was them, I forgot) school taught a set based on the postures called the “32 Killing Fists”. If I am not mistaken though, it is a recent creation to give form to what was originally just loose postures compiled on paper.

The person I know who does the set may very well know this set from Nanjing, or he could actually be doing a much older form, we simply don’t know at this time.

My suspicion however, is that he’s doing the same 32 Killing Fists taught at the Nanjing Koushou academy.

62

Royal Dragon : I know someone who does these postures as a set, and it looks very good from what I see

I tought there might be a person out there who would combine these postures into a set yah :slight_smile:

Thx for the reply,

Is that school in China ?

63

[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;1002060]Yes, the diagram is real, BUT the postures do not match the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. The NAMES are very similar to Chen Taiji though, but the postures do not mach that either.[/QUOTE]

hi, i disagree ,the applications are the same. the 32 text uses longfist codewords. it will be gibberish to other people.
the postures are not identical because “there are countless variations” (pat horse, page 2)

i think the techniques can be done in a set, but:

  • forms was looked down or bannd in most of the ming military, (Formation Treatise: “It is banned among the military, this useless gimmick.”) and qi army was an elite shocktroop division. and the diagrams are drawn in random positions to discourage making a form out of it.

  • civillian manuals at that time have clear sequences and explanation. the 32 was like that for a reason.

-the chinese army trains real fighting and did not involve in our petty civillian kung fu politics. forms is for identifying lineage and legitimacy and for performance. the army has no use for that.

  • if you tried making a form out of it, you will find it is very boring. karate looks more exciting. the applications are less effective versions of basic moves in kickboxing and judo. and thats not what people want.
64

[QUOTE=Eugene;1002171]Royal Dragon : I know someone who does these postures as a set, and it looks very good from what I see

I tought there might be a person out there who would combine these postures into a set yah :slight_smile:

Thx for the reply,

Is that school in China ?[/QUOTE]

Reply]
The school is in Australia, BUT they learned it from thier Chinese teachers. I am certian it is the 32 killing fists, but I have never seen another example of the Nanjing set ever done anywhere. All I have is a chart of it, and to be honest I can’t fully make sense of it.

Each posture however is done in the classic order, and the form is smooth and coherent. I need to examine it more closely to figure if it has legit martial applications, or if someone just connected the postures whit good looking transitions. I sort of shelved this perticular set and really focused on what i was getting from Sal for the last few years. Last time he and I met, he was tossing me around like a rag doll, despite having STAPLES in his gut from recent surgery. It was a fun time!

65

[QUOTE=bawang;1002202]hi, i disagree ,the applications are the same. the 32 text uses longfist codewords. it will be gibberish to other people.
the postures are not identical because “there are countless variations” (pat horse, page 2) [/quote]

Reply]
Actually, you are totally wrong here. I HAVE the Shaolin 32 posture Tai tzu set. It is my specialty and I know it very well. In fact, thanks to Sal, I know many details the mainstream does not know exist, and I have a fairly good understanding of the internals of it, enough too clearly see it performed completely INSIDE of the Chen style’s first form.

In addition, I have thourally examined and studied sal’s research on the subject and done extensive point by point comparisons of the Shaolin 32 posture Tai Tzu form and Chen style Tai Chi and found them to be nearly identical. Chen style really just adds stuff in between the Tai Tzu postures to make a longer form.

When one knows a set as well as I do, all it takes is a quick glance at the chart of Qi Jiguang’s postures to know they are not really related much. They are not even variations.

With the exception of the several that were taken from the Shaolin 32, it’s a totally different set of skills. And even the postures in common, are done in a totally different order (as seen in the chart, and in actual performance of the postures as a set)

It is blatantly clear that Qi jiguang’s set is only marginally related, but the Shaolin 32 tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Chen style ARE direclty related to each other.

i think the techniques can be done in a set, but:

  • forms was looked down or bannd in most of the ming military, (Formation Treatise: “It is banned among the military, this useless gimmick.”) and qi army was an elite shocktroop division. and the diagrams are drawn in random positions to discourage making a form out of it.

Reply]
I am not so sure of that. There are several theories.

  1. It IS a form (I have video of it beingg done as such)
  2. It was never a form, and the postures are just singular training drills and applications.

If number 2 is the operative theory, it does make sense because Forms were only for Masters. They were use sort of like diplomas. You only learned it once you mastered the system to show you had a degree in the style. In actual training, you learned single two man application drills (Same as we do today).

If this is the case, then the order is just random, but got solidified because of the writings. If it’s not the case, and it was a form, most likely used as a diploma,then it is possible my freind in Australia knows it.

Qi Jigang’s form may also have been choreographed by the Nanjing Kuoshou academy from Qi Jigunag’s writings too (32 Killing fists). I never concluded my research on that one.

  • civillian manuals at that time have clear sequences and explanation. the 32 was like that for a reason.

Reply]
Can you expand on this?I am not sure what you mean?

-the chinese army trains real fighting and did not involve in our petty civillian kung fu politics. forms is for identifying lineage and legitimacy and for performance. the army has no use for that.

Reply]
Agreed

  • if you tried making a form out of it, you will find it is very boring. karate looks more exciting. the applications are less effective versions of basic moves in kickboxing and judo. and thats not what people want.

Reply]
Actually, what I have on video is a very cool set. As for effectiveness, I clearly see some really good take downs and applications in the postures themselves. It’s the transitions I question and need to look further into.

In conclusion, the Qi jiguang postures/formal routine, what have you, is not Chen taiji, nor is it the Shaolin 32 in any way, shape or form. The Chen Taiji however, is clearly built on the Shaolin 32 posture form, and in fact contains the entire set, done in order inside of it.

66

hi royal dragon, i dont do shaolin boxing and i dont know about it as you do. i know they have shaolin taizuquan inside chen tiajiquan but my knowledge about shaolinquan is too limited. to me i think theres influence from both.

have you read the fist poems of qijiguang’s 32?

the chen family have 24 pear flower spear techniques with same sequence from qijiguang. does shaolin taizumen have it also?

in chen family thers 29 moves that share name with qijiguang’s 32 and have same applications. are they all included in shaolin taizuchangquan?

thanks

67

hi royal dragon, i dont do shaolin boxing and i dont know about it as you do. i know they have shaolin taizuquan inside chen tiajiquan but my knowledge about shaolinquan is too limited. to me i think theres influence from both.

have you read the fist poems of qijiguang’s 32?

Reply]
Yes, I have them translated in my library.

the chen family have 24 pear flower spear techniques with same sequence from qijiguang. does shaolin taizumen have it also?

Reply]
The Shaolin Tai Tzu does not have anything directly related to the Qi Jiguang sequence.

in chen family thers 29 moves that share name with qijiguang’s 32 and have same applications. are they all included in shaolin taizuchangquan?

Reply]
This is not true. They only share the same names. The postures are,for the most part different, so are the applications. From what I can tell, Chen family got the Names of the postures from general Qi Jiguang’s sequence, BUT they did not get the moves from it. The actual moves come from the Shaolin Tai Tzu Chang Chuan that was developed under the direction of Zhao Kuang Yin(He commissioned it’s creation, not actually created it)

You seem to be in the same place research wise that I was about 6-7 years ago. What you need to do is learn the Shaolin 32 posture form (even just the introductory version) from Sal, or me, and then compare the songs and the form to Chen Taiji, followed by a close study of Qi Jiguang’s sequence. You will see the Qi Jiguang is something different all together.

There is a book that has the translated Qi jiguang sequence in it, I think it’s written by Douglas Wile? I don’t have access to my library right now, but I am sure Sal can chime in with the name of the book.

68

[QUOTE=Eugene;993244]In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon’ (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung’s Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi’s book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned

I know you people have discussed this issue in 2005, but are these drawings mentioned for real ?[/QUOTE]

No, there is big confusion concerning this book.
It is just General Qi’s set. Plain and simple, there is nothing in that book to say otherwise, people just started assuming it was the “original” Song TZ Chang Quan" set.
AND< clearly it is not, it is nothing at all like the actual 32 posture (it is really 54 movements not 32, they only say 32 because of General Qi’s book).

69

[QUOTE=bawang;1002246]hi royal dragon, i dont do shaolin boxing and i dont know about it as you do. i know they have shaolin taizuquan inside chen tiajiquan but my knowledge about shaolinquan is too limited. to me i think theres influence from both.

have you read the fist poems of qijiguang’s 32?

the chen family have 24 pear flower spear techniques with same sequence from qijiguang. does shaolin taizumen have it also?

in chen family thers 29 moves that share name with qijiguang’s 32 and have same applications. are they all included in shaolin taizuchangquan?

thanks[/QUOTE]

This all has been researched decades ago by people in China.
Chen TJQ took the Shaolin TZ postural movements and gave them the names from General Qi’s book to hide where they got it from.
Why? Because Chen Wangting was friends with the big rebel Li that murdered all the Shaolin monks in a massacre ambush when they were praying. Well documented historical event. After that happened, everything became hush hush.
Chen TJQ = Shaolin TZ Quan + Tongbei Quan + Neijia Quan 13 Postures.
That’s a well established fact.

Chen TJQ does also practice the staff and spear and other weapons found in General Qi’s book. WHY?
Because at that time (1600s) Shaolin ALSO practiced these same weapons set.
WHY?
General Qi’s teacher and his fellow friend instructor ALSO taught these military sets to Shaolin in the 1500s.

In the 20th century, Chen Xin, who wrote about the Chen family martial arts compared the village arts to what he saw similar in General Qi’s book.
It was he that made this first comparison, nowhere before him in history does the Chen family records ever mention that their material came from General Qi’s book.

Also, nearby to Chen village there is Chang Naizhou’s Neijia Quan style, that was developed around the same time and it too comes from Shaolin roots and local weapons styles, and the theory found in the Taiji Quan book (miraculously found in a salt store by “accident”) was from Chang Naizhou’s own book, copies word for word.

A few books have been published by Marnix Wells and Doug Wylie about all this.

70

hi mister canzonieri, do u have any chinese peer reviewed research journals about this?

also could you name the original names of the 29 techniques please? thank u. sry for asking a lot of questions but im very interested in finding about martial art history but dont know how

also you saying a ming military officer not knowing basic military drills taught to footsoldiers is confusing for me.

71

[QUOTE=bawang;1002295]hi mister canzonieri, do u have any peer reviewed research journals about this?

also could you name the original names of the 29 techniques please? thank u. sry for asking a lot of questions but im very interested in finding about martial art history but dont know how[/QUOTE]

These kinds of articles are in Chinese, since they are in martial arts magazines and books from China. All you have to do is type in the Chinese characters in Google and it finds you tons of articles in Chinese.
One good site in English that sums up new research on Chen TJQ origins is:
http://www.literati-tradition.com/chen_camp.html

General Qi’s book is 32 postures from 16 different styles. He says that most of these styles are the same though they have different names. He said that either they are from Song Taizu Chang Quan or they are from Wen Family Boxing (which is now called Chuo Jiao - Fanzi Quan[Ba Shan Fan]).
The postures he shows, which he says they are the most effective moves from these styles, are 32 different drills, not a form, and he explains what each move is good for.
The last few are clearly Wen Family Boxing postures commonly found in Ba Shan Fan and Chuo Jiao sets.

72

hi thanks for the reply mister canzonieri. i have memorized the entire chapter 14 and the fist poems. i also came to conclusion that its not a form like u.
yes i remember fanziquan friend doing beating the drum, its their opening move

the website you sent me said
"Chen Wangting created the radically new system of taiji quan based on Qi Jiguans (1528-1587) Classic of Pugilism (Tang Hao). "

most of the chinese articles i find on the internet said theres a connection, and i remember reading the magazine wuhun as a kid, and i never saw any mentioning how chenwangting comitted fraud by renaming shaolin mvoes to qijiguang’s moves.

73

Thx Mr. Canzonieri, for that reply, also interesting to read what you replyed to bawang. :slight_smile:

74

[QUOTE=bawang;1002303]hi thanks for the reply mister canzonieri. i have memorized the entire chapter 14 and the fist poems. i also came to conclusion that its not a form like u.
yes i remember fanziquan friend doing beating the drum, its their opening move

the website you sent me said
"Chen Wangting created the radically new system of taiji quan based on Qi Jiguan’s (1528-1587) Classic of Pugilism (Tang Hao). "

most of the chinese articles i find on the internet said theres a connection, and i remember reading the magazine wuhun as a kid, and i never saw any mentioning how chenwangting comitted fraud by renaming shaolin mvoes to qijiguang’s moves.[/QUOTE]

Reply]
The proof is clearly in the fact that the Chen form tracks the Shaolin Tai Tzu move for move, in order, and the Qi jiguang is very different. When you look at the moves themselves, the answers become apparent.

There has been considerable research in this area over the last 10 years. MAss communication has made it possble to compare what used to be isolated systms and really see the truth of thier origins.

75

Song taizu er lu?

Hi Sal (or whomever with the knowledge)

Im new at this forum and I have read many of your articles from your site, and I’d like to congratulate you on very nice work. Look forward to reading your book.

What I am curious about though is that taizu er lu (following 32 posture yi lu?).
Do you have any way of sharing that form?, apart from me going to US to train that is :). Same goes for that second road of xiao hong quan you’ve been talking about.
I’d like very much to see those forms, if nothing else, clips of you doing them?

Im practising yilu of both those forms myself, and wish to extend my library so to speak, evolve within the style.

Hope you can help.

/Johnny of Sweden

76

hi does anyone know how to contact mister canzonieri? i want to talk about this further on emails. i disagree with what he said

77

I found this qoute by accident:

Taizuquan (, Great Ancestor Boxing) is often segregated into the Zhao Taizu (referring to Zhao Kuangyin ( ) First Emperor of the Song Dynasty) and Ming Taizu (referring to Zhu Yuanzhang () First Emperor of the Ming Dynasty). Whereas Zhao Taizuquan is often referred to as Chang Quan (, Long Boxing) and Ming Taizuquan is also known as Hong Quan ().

Source: http://www.satirio.com/ma/taizu/intro.html

Maybe it wasnt mentioned before or maybe someone can prove it or disprove it.

Kind regards,
Xian

78

[QUOTE=Xian;1112525]I found this qoute by accident:

Source: http://www.satirio.com/ma/taizu/intro.html

Maybe it wasnt mentioned before or maybe someone can prove it or disprove it.

Kind regards,
Xian[/QUOTE]

Thanks for posting that. Yes, we discussed that a few years back in a few other threads. There was a big long Hong Quan thread.

There have been many articles in Chinese martial art magazines and online about all the different Hong Quan and Taizuquan lineages and branches and styles.
People in the West are just starting to learn about all this, which is good.

Thanks again.

79

Tagged for further reading from home.. not work!!

80

[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;1112533]Thanks for posting that. Yes, we discussed that a few years back in a few other threads. There was a big long Hong Quan thread.

There have been many articles in Chinese martial art magazines and online about all the different Hong Quan and Taizuquan lineages and branches and styles.
People in the West are just starting to learn about all this, which is good.

Thanks again.[/QUOTE]

Ah so the Lao Jia Hong Quan for example wasnt mentioned by that ?

Kind regards,
Xian