Tai Chi incorporated Qi’s 32 postures.
Chen Yu said yes.
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Article/Class50/Class62/Class63/200601/3005.html
Wu Dang research said Cheng Wang Ting’s “Quan Jing Zhuong Ge” has nothing to do with Chen Tai Chi.
http://www.wudang.biz/Article.Asp?id=174
what do you think?
Chen Yu said there are 29 “overlapping” postures and similar classics/song Ge Jue.
Chen Jia Gou Long fist Quan Pu and Qi Ji Guang’s Quan Jing.
Wu Dang research said;
Chen Wang Ting wrote “Quan Jing Zhuong Ge”. It is an article of 7 character poems. It was a military book or Bin Shu and interpretations of Qi’s Quan Jing. It is not the first or origin of Tai Chi theory or classics.
–
Qi’s Quan Jing is the last chapter of " Ji Qiao Xin Shu".
Quan Jing also recorded Ba Ji and Pi Gua. and other long fists.
They are summaries of 32 postures to be used to train the soldiers.
http://www.artwork.com.cn/ywww/tjq/022.asp
Chen Wang Ting’s Quan Jing Zhuong Ge.
influences from Qi’s Quan Jing.
2nd sentence is about Kao and Chan, which is describing Ba Ji.
3rd sentence is about Pi Gua.
–
they are not “entirely” Chen Tai Chi.
Wushu Ci Dian/dictionary said.
http://www.brucejkd.com/kungfu/zhws/cidian1.htm
Qi’s 32 postures were incorporationg old and then current 16 families fists to train soldiers as an exercise set.
Chen Wang Ting borrowed/incorporated a lot into Chen Tai Ji.
Interesting, the Tai Tzu, 32 postures set, of Songshan Shaolin is in the old Chen style set, verbatum, move for move.
Sal Canzionieri just did a cool artical in Kung Fu Qi gong magazine about it.
As for the Qi Jiguang postures, you can look at the oldest Chen set you cna find on Youtube. Sit there with a copy of the Qi Jiguang chart. Pause the vid at every posture, and then search through the chart till you see one. Mark it off, and move on to the next one.
If you find all, or just a majority of the postures in the form, then it does not matter what anyone says, the form itself is all the record and proof we need.
Want to muddy the waters even worse?
I had a quote from Liu Yun Qiao years ago that stated, “The principles of Taiji and Baji are the same.”
I always thought he meant they were similiar principles expressed differently. Now, maybe he was mistranslated—maybe the postures of baji and taiji are similar–they sure seem to have a similar root.
Rumor is that there exists a tape of Liu Yun Qiao’s Tai Zu Quan floating around–I don’t have it and never saw it. Let me repeat what I heard previously—the form is played as slow as Yang’s taijiquan and requires the same breath pattern.
I still work with the speculation that this may have been what Yang Lu Chan returned to—modifies the Chen’s taiji he learned to fit the pattern of its earlier root, tai zu quan (slow initial set–foundational set).
Just speculation and no way ever to prove it.:o
I have a copy of a Japanese girl doing liu yun qiao’s Tai Tzu Chang Chuan. I don’t know if I have the whole form or not. What I have is maybe 50 moves or so, but I have heard rummurs this form was once 350 moves long.
It is an interesting set, and it does appear to be only a section of a much longer form. It’s kind of an odd set and I still have not figured out where it fits into the Tai Tzu family yet.
If anyone knows someon who has a copy of Liu Yun Qiao himself doing this set, I would love to see it.
As for the body mechanics and such, internal Tai Tzu is done very similar to Chen, and I believe it is the source of Chen’s flavor of movement.
Tai Tzu is like Shaolin, only perfromed as if a Taoist Qi Gong master were doing the sets according to his own Taoist principals.
Taiji methodology myth…
General Qi Jiguang (1528-1587 CE) wrote the “Ji Xiao Xin Shu” (New Book of Record of Efficacy) in accordance to ancient military tradition. He divided the training of both infantry and marines in the southern eastern sea coastal region into 18 articles grouped in 6 chapters which represents the liu lu (6 tunes) that military disciplines derived.
The Quan Jing (classic of pugilism) is the 14th article, the last of the 4th Chapter which is named the Yu Zhi (driving/conducting/harnessing order). So it is not the last of the book but it is the last article in the 4th chapter that covers the “martial arts” training of the troops, which includes hand to hand combat. He put the Hand to Hand last because he believes that hand to hand is a minor discipline on the battle field especially firearms were already introduced during his time.
I believe that there is always a confusion that General Qi’s 32 moves is Taizu Changquan. I believe that’s not true at all. General Qi clearly stated that his 32 moves are taken from different “contemporary” styles including Taizu Changquan at the time. Some people believe that the last 4 moves of the 32 are in fact taken from Fanziquan. In reality, I think these 32 moves are San Shou like moves that are loosely “link” together. They are not meant to be a form per se. I also believe that they would be drilled similar to weaponry (ie liuhe gun) or the structure of southern Kung Fu (Zhejiang and Fujian regional martial arts).
Technically, all TCMA forms can be drilled in 3 different speed - slow, medium and fast. So it’s not Taiji that invented that methodology. Also the idea of Push Hand (tui shou) is not specific to Taiji. Push hand like sticky hand (Chi Sao of Wing Chun style) is actually for training Chin Na. The Taiji Push hand just “rounded” it off and slowed it down that’s all. It’s not a totally new and radical by any means IMHO. People don’t understand Chinese culture let alone martial arts culture and they go hand in hand. So when they see Taijiquan, they all become fascinated by it. This is because they don’t understand what Kung Fu is all about. If they do, Taiji is just a new kid on the block like JKD is today.
Anyway, don’t get side track by styles. Kung Fu is Kung Fu.
Mantis108
That section of Gen Qi’s book can be interpreted different ways.
He lists a bunch of various styles (tai tzu, ba shan fan, wen family, etc), but he says they are basically all the same, that they share moves in common. That’s pretty clear in his book;
then he gives the images of moves that can be interpreted as the moves that are in common between these styles.
The thing is that yes, he is truthful in saying that these styles are all in essense the same, because they all are derived from the same source: Scholarly/Military martial art that comes down from the royal family of Zhao/Chao (from Sung to Ming dynasty).
You DO see Fanzi(chuojiao)/piqua/baji/Wen/ postures inside of Tai Tzu quan forms, and it should be so otherwise it is not authentic. They all derive from the same sources.
Some people have said that the images are a form from tai tzu chang quan because the song (posture names) is the same as that for the tai tzu style.
Other people say that the images are examples of moves from these different styles, and is not meant to be a form, but just the moves that are cool.
From: http://www.itcca.it/peterlim/historg2.htm
The Sung Tai Zhu Quan Connection
Tang Hao was the first to theorise that Chen Wang Ting invented Taijiquan by integrating 29 of the 32 postures of General Qi Ji Kwang. In chapter 3 we have already ascertained that Gu was wrong about the origins of Taijiquan, here we will see how the 32 postures of General Qi fits into the picture as a basis for the development of Chen Taijiquan.
General Qi was a general during the Ming dynasty who compiled a book on effective war techniques called the “New Book Recording Effective Techniques” (Ji Xiao Xin Shu). In it he had sections of strategy, weapons usage, unarmed combat and other aspects of war. In the section on unarmed combat he recorded the names of 16 extant empty hand martial arts and took note of what made effective boxing. He also recorded 32 boxing postures. Gu was the first to assume that these 32 postures were an amalgam of the most effective techniques of the 16 listed fistic forms. For many decades, this was the accepted truth because of his reputation as a Taijiquan historian. Unfortunately he was wrong.
Based on the above assumption, Gu had posited that Chen Wang Ting had developed his Taijiquan from General Qi’s form which supposedly consisted of the best techniques from the 16 extent fistic arts during the Ming dynasty. An impressive pedigree. With a closer examination of the postures and their listing we discover something else.
In 1918, the Shanghai Da Shen Bookshop published a book called the `Boxing Canon’ (Quan Jing) which was at that time one of the more complete books on the many aspects of boxing. Inside it was included drawings of the original 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan (First Emperor Of Sung’s Long Boxing). Upon closer examination, it was discovered that these 32 postures were identical (there were some variant readings where similar sounding words were used in place of each other though without losing the meaning of the posture name) with the 32 postures in General Qi’s book. General Qi had listed the 32 postures of Sung Tai Zhu Quan as the first in the list of the many fistic forms he mentioned.
A parallel comparison of the drawings and names of the 32 postures shows that they are in fact identical. A posture listing of both sets are as follows:
The 32 Postures 1n General Qi’s Book
Lazily Arranging Clothes
Golden Chicken Stands On One Leg
Pat Horse
Bending Single Whip
Seven Star Fist
Repulse Riding Dragon
Sweep Leg And Empty Bait
Hill Fairy Stance (qiu liu shi)
Repulse Thrusting Attack
Ambush Stance
Casting Away Stance
Pick Up Elbow Stance
Speedy Step
Chin Na Stance (Grappling Stance)
Middle Four Level Stance
Subduing Tiger Stance
High Four Level Stance
Repulse Insertion Stance
Well Blocking Four Levels
Ghost Kick Foot
Pointing At Pubic Region
Animal Head Stance
Spirit Fist
Single Whip
Sparrow Dragon On The Ground
Rising Sun Stance
Goose Wings Fold Body
Riding Tiger Stance
Bend Pheonix Elbow
Cannon Overhead
Follow Pheonix Eblow
Flag And Drum Stance
Sung Tai Zhu Chang Chuan’s 32 Postures
Lazily Arranging Stance
Golden Chicken Stands On One Leg
Control Horse Stance
Bending Whip
Seven Star Fist
Repulse Riding Dragon Stance
Sweeping Foot And Lightly Empty
Hill Flowing Stance (qiu liu shi)
Repulse Thrusting Stance
Ambush Stance
Pulling Frame Stance
Bracing Eblow Upwards Stance
Escaping Step
Chin Na Stance (Grappling Stance)
Middle Four Level Stance
Subduing Tiger Stance
High Four Level Stance
Repulse Catching Stance
Well Blocking Stance
Ghost Kicking Stance
Pointing To Pubic Region
Animal Head Stance
Spirit Fist
Single Whip
Sparrow Dragon Stance
Rising Sun Stance
Wild Goose Wing Stance
Riding Tiger Stance
Bend Pheonix Stand
Over Head Stance
Follow Pheonix Stance
Flag And Drum Stance
What does this mean to Taijiquan? Chen Zhi Ming was the member of the Chen family who accompanied Tang Hao to the Chen village. He, like Gu and Tang also wrote about his family’s Taijiquan. Chen Zhi Ming work contains records the following about Sung Tai Zhu Quan:
`Tai Zhu stances are the strongest, tumbling and diagonal moving, even ghosts have to be busy to get out of the way’ from the Liang Yi Tang Ben manual of Chen martial arts.
`Seven star fist and hands take care of each other, Pat Horse Fist comes down from Tai Zhu’ from the Wen Xiu Tang Ben manual of Chen martial arts
From the above, which are the earliest sources of information about Chen family martial arts, it is clear that it was Sung Tai Zhu Quan that formed the basis of Taijiquan with 29 of its 32 postures adopted into the form, and did not come from General Qi’s work which has no mention in Chen literature. This inaccurate hypothesis having been originated by Tang Hao.
Sung Tai Zhu Quan or Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan as it was also known, comes from the south of China and is a external hard boxing form. It is characterised by powerful strikes and movements, body shaking, being structurally aligned, postures flowing with coordinated footwork, being very firm and stable both in standing and stepping and is effective in grappling (chin-na). All of which are present in Chen Taijiquan today. Sung Tai Zhu Chang Quan was not the only art practiced and ultimately integrated into their unique family boxing routines, from Chen Zhi Ming’s record of the Chen arts song formulas, we know that Shaolin Red Fist was also practiced.
Shaolin Red Fist (Hong Chuan)
The Liang Yi Tang Ben records that the Chen Villiage practiced ‘four small sets of Red Fist’. The Red Fist boxing is a Shaolin form. Given the close proximity between the Chen Villiage and the Shaolin Temple, it is not surprising that this form of boxing would be practiced there. The Red Fist boxing is also widely practiced in Shanxi where it is several different and but related sets, Tai Zhu Quan being one of them. Stylistically, it stresses low postures, soft use of muscles, using the mind instead of strength, speedy emission of power, guarding the four directions, agility, using the Qi circularly, closing into the opponent and using sticking and leaning.
[QUOTE=SPJ;727594]Tai Chi incorporated Qi’s 32 postures.
Chen Yu said yes.
http://www.taiji.net.cn/Article/Class50/Class62/Class63/200601/3005.html
Wu Dang research said Cheng Wang Ting’s “Quan Jing Zhuong Ge” has nothing to do with Chen Tai Chi.
http://www.wudang.biz/Article.Asp?id=174
what do you think?
:)[/QUOTE]
I would recommend you read my article in the latest issue of Kung Fu magazine, I in detail covered a lot of this.
And there is a move by move comparison chart showing exactly how the Shaolin Tai Tzu 32 posture Long Fist Yi Lu form and the Chen Lao Jia form follow each other in order, the Chen Lao Jia form is based on the Shaolin Tai Tzi Chang Yi Lu Quan form. The postures are all in parallel, after you skip all the repeat parts in the Chen version.
If you see this form:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bjfw0GzwK2w
They say it is the Chen 108 posture Long Fist form, a long lost form in the Chen Tai Ji system and is said to be their oldest form, a form that their whole system is derived from, and a form that amalgamated the various other forms that Chen family learned (hong quan, tai tzu), etc.
If you can read Chinese, the names of the 108 postures shown on this video
are THE SAME as the names given in Tai Tzu Hong 108 Chang Quan form.
The interesting thing is that the Chinese for this form shows that they are using the TAI TZU QUAN (see the above posts) versions of the names of the postures, NOT the versions that Gen Qi’s book uses for the posture names.
Normally Chen tai ji forms use the Gen Qi version of the posture names in all their forms, this one doesn’t.
Strange?
Also there is a 302 move version of this form. That longer version comes from Shanxi province, it adds in some repeating moves that happen every certain amount of postures.
Also there is a 320 move version of this form. That longer version comes from Shanxi province, it adds in some repeating moves that happen every certain amount of postures.
Reply]
Does you know where there is a clip of that?
[QUOTE=RAF;727831]Want to muddy the waters even worse?
I had a quote from Liu Yun Qiao years ago that stated, “The principles of Taiji and Baji are the same.”
I always thought he meant they were similiar principles expressed differently. Now, maybe he was mistranslated—maybe the postures of baji and taiji are similar–they sure seem to have a similar root.
Rumor is that there exists a tape of Liu Yun Qiao’s Tai Zu Quan floating around–I don’t have it and never saw it. Let me repeat what I heard previously—the form is played as slow as Yang’s taijiquan and requires the same breath pattern.
I still work with the speculation that this may have been what Yang Lu Chan returned to—modifies the Chen’s taiji he learned to fit the pattern of its earlier root, tai zu quan (slow initial set–foundational set).
Just speculation and no way ever to prove it.:o[/QUOTE]
Simple resolve to this:
Where Yang Lu Chan is from, Hong Quan style, which is a version of Tai Tzu Quan, is the main CMA done there when he was young.
Peter Lim says on his site that Yang Lu Chan first learned Hong Quan before he went to Chen village to live/work.
Fact is that the Wu brothers, who were Yang Lu Chan’s first students when he want home, ALSO were first Hong Quan experts.
So, TZ Hong Quan and Yang style have a strong relationship to each other, no Wu Dang Mountain mystery style needs to be used as Yang Tai Ji origin as some have speculated.
If you look at Wu Tai Ji, it is more apparent.
About Liu Yun Qiao’s Tai Tzu, he did/taught more than one TZ form, I’ve learned some from his students.
One is pretty much a fast Shaolin Long Fist form, it’s moves are seen in the Shalon TZ Long Fist forms 1, 2 and 3 that they used to do there.
I have seen tapes of the very long slow TZ form, it’s his pride and joy form and he didn’t teach it to many people far as I know.
Anyways, it is very slow and internal, looks like Yang TJQ in flavor, but its’ postures are very much like the 108 Long Form.
When I have time I will check this form against the Chen 108 Long Form and see
if they are the same form, or mostly the same, little bit the same, or entirely different.
[QUOTE=Royal Dragon;727865]Also there is a 320 move version of this form. That longer version comes from Shanxi province, it adds in some repeating moves that happen every certain amount of postures.
Reply]
Does you know where there is a clip of that?[/QUOTE]
Hmm, no, I’m sure no one has posted it cause it is too long.
There is a 4 vcd set just for this form, and at the end of the 4th disc
is the whole form, it’s like 15 minutes long.
Really? Do you have a link for that form? I’d love to get a copy for myself!
[QUOTE=Sal Canzonieri;727866]Simple resolve to this:
About Liu Yun Qiao’s Tai Tzu, he did/taught more than one TZ form, I’ve learned some from his students.
One is pretty much a fast Shaolin Long Fist form, it’s moves are seen in the Shalon TZ Long Fist forms 1, 2 and 3 that they used to do there.
I have seen tapes of the very long slow TZ form, it’s his pride and joy form and he didn’t teach it to many people far as I know.
Anyways, it is very slow and internal, looks like Yang TJQ in flavor, but its’ postures are very much like the 108 Long Form.
When I have time I will check this form against the Chen 108 Long Form and see
if they are the same form, or mostly the same, little bit the same, or entirely different.[/QUOTE]
I’d be careful as to what students may have taught you. There was only one Tai Zu Quan form that Liu taught, well over 300 movements. Many students simply didn’t want to learn it.
Adam Hsu taught a longfist form also called Tai Zu Quan–that would be fast. However, it would not be the same or from what Liu taught.
One remark was that this Tai Zu Quang form was already in his family for a couple of generations the other is that the mi zong bodyguard taught him the form.
I believe that the Tai Zu Quan form, family/slow, was probably the first form and system he learned. Interestingly that had to have happened before he was 8 or so (before he studied with Li Shu Wen and even then Li Shu Wen put him into post standing for 6 months or more).
If you know where the tape of Liu’s longfist form is, please post or let us know the source. Would be greatly appreciated.
[QUOTE=RAF;727912]I’d be careful as to what students may have taught you. There was only one Tai Zu Quan form that Liu taught, well over 300 movements. Many students simply didn’t want to learn it.
Adam Hsu taught a longfist form also called Tai Zu Quan–that would be fast. However, it would not be the same or from what Liu taught.
One remark was that this Tai Zu Quang form was already in his family for a couple of generations the other is that the mi zong bodyguard taught him the form.
I believe that the Tai Zu Quan form, family/slow, was probably the first form and system he learned. Interestingly that had to have happened before he was 8 or so (before he studied with Li Shu Wen and even then Li Shu Wen put him into post standing for 6 months or more).
If you know where the tape of Liu’s longfist form is, please post or let us know the source. Would be greatly appreciated.:)[/QUOTE]
aha, yeah, the fast Tai tzu is one done by Adam Hsu and others from Taiwan, also in Yang Jing Ming’s line (his site has this form done by one of the older generation).
I had erroniously thought that this form came from Liu’s school, since Hsu was his student for a long time.
Well, I’ve only seen one version of Liu’s tai tzu long form, the slow one, and that is the one done by the Japanese girl.