? on Primordial 32 posture Tai Tzu Chang Chuan

Wai Jia: The Kung Fu Forum Shaolin Kung Fu
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Does anyone know where I can find a chart on this form? I am looking for one that can actually be worked out into the set so I can play with it.

I have the chart from General Qi Jiguang, but it’s not anything that can be worked out into the form. Does anyone know where I can find a workable document of this set too? Are they one and the same?

I’m also looking for info on each of the 32 postures, and thier applications and their guiding principals to further my studies, if anyone knows where this info can be found.

Thanks,

RD

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I don’t think QiJiGuang’s 32 fist methods is the same as TaiZu ChangQuan. Taizu is said to be created by Zhao GuangYi, the founder of Song dynasty. QiJiGuang lived at the end of Ming dynasty, hundreds of years later.

However I do believe that the 32 fist methods is not a form in itself, but a collection of general offensive/defensive principals. Just study them carefully and incorate these ideas into your own strategies.

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Most Tai Tzu lines consider Qi Jiguang’s 32 postures to be one of the pivital forms in their styles evolution.

However I do believe that the 32 fist methods is not a form in itself, but a collection of general offensive/defensive principals. Just study them carefully and incorate these ideas into your own strategies

I’m actually looking for any sort of documentation on both if applicable. Written manuals on each of the 32 postures, and thier uses would be ideal (offensive/defensive principals), especially if they are in english so I can read them.

4

Here’s the interpolation given by YiuMingSheng in his book 32 Killing Fists.
He’s a SongXi NeiJiaQuan master, so keep in mind that the techniques are largely drawn from that said style, and is more focused on tripping and grappling.

http://individual.utoronto.ca/gfx/misc/32killingfists.rar

This is in Chinese, tell me where you want the translation, and I’ll try my best to translate for you.

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Are you talking about the “Tai Tzu Chang Chuan” that came from the Long Fist Wha branch (Long Fist 5 branches - Cha, Wha, Hon, Tan, Pao) and passed down by GM Han Ching-Tan in Taiwan?

I may be able to help you on that one if that’s what you are talking about.

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Are you talking about the “Tai Tzu Chang Chuan” that came from the Long Fist Wha branch (Long Fist 5 branches - Cha, Wha, Hon, Tan, Pao) and passed down by GM Han Ching-Tan in Taiwan?

Reply]
I don’t know what he teaches, but that sounds like it. I am researching the art of long fist founded by the first Song Emperor, Chao, Kuang Yin AKA Sung Tai Tzu developed in 960 AD.

I have a number of forms from various versions of the style, but not much explanation in them. Between Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and Tai Tzu Hong Chuan I have a relatively complete northern Tai Tzu style, but I am still missing the essence of it all. I would like to find out what the original 32 techniques were, and both the principals that govern them, and HOW they were used in application. From there, I can look into my forms, and extrapalate application and use knowing I’m at least on the right path to being correct. Otherwise I’m just guessing.

What I have now is just about the same thing as learning a lot of Bagua forms, being able to perform them properly with the right structure and mechanics, but never being taught the 8 mother palms, the strategical principals and fundementals behind them, or HOW to use them in free fighting application.

With out that base, there is nothing to guide all the tehcniques in the rest of the form I know. I can figure lots of apps for the techs in the forms I have, but is it stylistically correct for Bagua? Or in my actual case, is it stylistically correct for Tai Tzu Chang Chuan?

An english manual, or even some sort of video teaching the 32 postures Tai Tzu Chang Chuan, and the principals behind thier use would be ideal, but I’ll settle for anything really. This will at least allow me to explore my forms in the right direction for the style, instead of making up any application that works.

Oh, and what do i need to view that clip?

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It’s not a video clip, it’s just a bunch of jpg images of a book.

Use winrar to decompress the file.
http://www.rarlab.com/

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GFX
WOW, that looks like it! Although I’m not so sure the apps shown fully coraspond with the postures.

I would love as much translation as you would be willing to do.

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[QUOTE=Royal DragonOh, and what do i need to view that clip?[/QUOTE]

eight bucks. plumpub.com/sales/vcd/coll_taitzu.htm

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I have that series, it looks like two sections out of the Long form. It’s good, but there is no explanation on the esscence of the style, or description of the original 32 postures. It teaches the form sections, and a few weapons sets.

If there IS explanation, there is no courasponding demos of it in application, it’s only forms.

The scanned text linked to above actualy helps me more. Now If I can only read Chinese! :slight_smile:

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Nice, I’ll try to post translations as much as I can then. Maybe one page a day or something.

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COOL! Thank You!!

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First Technique Lan Zha Yi ( Lazily Tucking In The clothe ) ( pic 1 )

The fist manual says: “Lan Zha Yi open door form, changes to next move Xun Bu Dan Bian. Facing the enemy, if no courage to advance, it’s a waste to good eye sight and precise hands”.

Lan Zha Yi is a opening technique, like the opening moves in fist forms today. So called “Lazily Tucking In the clothe”, is to mean that the martial art practitioner is not nervous when facing the enemy, and slowly tucks in the clothe. It represents that the practioner is skilled and brave, with heroism that is fearless in the face of danger. In SongXi NeiJia, a lot of forms open with “Lan Zha Yi”, but the movement is slightly different ( pic 1-1, black pants means our side).

– pic 1 – – pic 1-1 –

From the fist manual we can also see, Lan Zha Yi’s next move should be “Xun Bu Dan Bian” ( Fast step single whip ). “Xun Bu”, is to mean extremely fast footwork, “Xun Bu Dan Bian” means fast advance, and face the enemy with “Dan Bian” ( Single whip ). The method is: When the enemy attack me with punchs and kicks, I use the right arm to swing down ( PiGua ) from the top to the front ( that makes no sense to me, maybe he means left ), immediately twist the waist, step forward and seal the enemy’s leg, at the same time use the right arm to cut down from top to front and press on the enemy’s chest, making him fall. ( pic 1-2 )

Lan Zha Yi’s movement selection is not important, the importance is the second sentense. “Facing the enemy, if no courage to advance, it’s a waste of good eye sight and precise hands”. It hits the truth of practicing martial arts right on the nose. It means that if one does not have the spirit to advance fearlessly and fight for one’s life in the face of the enemy, then even the best techniques are useless. In martial practice, there is often the saying “First courage, second strength, third technique”. In art of war, there is also the saying “When two army meet, the brave will be victorious”. When summarized, it always point to the same principal: One must be brave when facing the enemy. That is why, only when the martial art practitioner has the fearless spirit of “seeing blade as if it is nothing”, then one can overcome the enemy and gain victory.

Translator’s Comments:

“Lan Zha Yi” is also name for the opening technique in Chen taji. In Yang taiji, this is changed to “Lan Que Wei” ( grasp the sparrow’s tail ) for a better sounding name, but lost it’s original meaning of courage imo.

“Single Whip” can be simpler than meets the eye. It can be the technique with the same name that is found in taiji, which is used as described here. Also, in CMA, a thai-like kick is called a “whip kick”, so “Xun Bu Dan Bian” could mean to advanced and throw a round house kick.

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WOW, Thanks!

I’m a bit confused though, I think I need a bit more study. :smiley:

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What are you confused about?

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I don’t understand the whole thing about the Single Whip.

Also, the pics of the usage themselves confuse me, they don’t really seem to be represenative of the postures shown.

I’m not saying the apps are bad, they just don’t seem to mesh with the postures shown.

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The apps…

First and foremost, I thank gxf for the nice work on the translation.

Royal Dragon, you are right about the moves and the applications don’t much. The Chinese text is IMHO poorly written and the apps are at best liberal interpretations of the original moves. The whole idea of referencing old text with a supposely old and legit “internal” style of Kung Fu is rather wacky.

One thing of note is that the “Whip” is also an old pugilistic term (possibly since Song dynasty) of clenched fist strike that could be pigua, round house, straight, back fist, etc. Bascially, the hands whip out following the motion of the waist.

I was very disappointed with the text when I first read it sometime ago. The first impression is that the author has very little real experience with application and pugilistic traditions. You could see it with first page’s comment that he has. All he was saying there is the “martial feeling” which basically is “be brave” (what the f*ck?!). This, he claims, in the old text is the suggestion on the move Lan Zha Yi. The move isn’t about giving air of competence. It is about getting ready and in position in a shorter time than other pugilistic traditions of the time. Zha Yi was the conventional move to get ready for a fight in the good old days. If you can shorten that, you get a better chance to initiate and control the pace. That’s why you have the Xun Bu Dan Bian. A quick left foot stomp followed by shift into right stance and right lead strike. It is all about timing and being quick. It has nothing to do with “lazely” or “looking courageous”. In fact, you can look like a nobody. The proof however is in the pudding. Looks and feelings have nothing to do with real techniques. Speed and efficiency kills not looks and attitudes (that’s for the performing arts). You finish the fight before you even need to tying up your robe for a proper and prolonged fight. That what Lan Zha Yi means if you ask me.

Just some thoughts

Mantis108

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I have to disagreed with you mantis.

The bravery theme here is of uptmost importance to martial art practice. You are not trying to look and feel brave, but to actually be brave. It should be effortless, and Lan Zha Yi would just be so natural to do because you have no innate fear of your opponent. This idea so so important that, QiJiGuang spent half of the time in the opening statement talking about it.

Take mantis for example, it requires courage from the partitioner to advance and close the gap to the opponent while under attack. As well as evasion and tricking the opponent. Doing something like that requires confidence and courage.

In addition, how do you explain the name “Lan Zha Yi”? Lan can be translated as either lazily or slowly, both of which doesn’t explain your idea of fast opening. This posture is not a fighting applicable move, period. The real technique starts with “Xun Bu Dan Bian”.

I find it interesting that your interpretation of Xun Bu Dan Bian is basically based on mantis, while the author’s interpretation is based on his style, and mine is based on something I find useful. That’s the beauty of the 32 fist manual imo.

Anyways, it’s important to remember that the 32 fist methods were original written for basic infantry training and conditioning. The most important quality of solider were not technical proficiency but rather bravery.

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Anyways, it’s important to remember that the 32 fist methods were original written for basic infantry training and conditioning.

Reply]
I was under the impression that the 32 postures was a compilation of the Emperor Chao, Kuang Yin’s life long experiance as a soldier, and eventual commander of the elite imperial troops. In other words, it was his advanced, personal style created out of a life long martial study.

My research seems to indicate he was a student of Louhan and a Qi gong student of Chen Po (Chen, Hsi Y, founder of Taiji Ruler, and water boxing) in his youth. Later he surely would have been deeply exposed to the Hong Jia style used by the imperial troops of the time, considering he rose through the ranks to be thier commander. Somewhere he was supposed to have become versed in the Monkey style. His art was an advanced compilation of all that experiance. I don’t belive it was for basic infantry training. The Southern Tai Tzu common in Fuzian seems to fit that bill much better, both in legend, and construction.

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The whole idea of referencing old text with a supposely old and legit “internal” style of Kung Fu is rather wacky.

Reply]
Why? If it’s a legit text,why not use it for deeper insite into your studies?